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| petertodd | gmaxwell: good idea, that merkle tree looks fine to me | 00:15 |
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| petertodd | gmaxwell: there's a few other options too, but the IETF makes for a good reference | 00:22 |
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| lclc | If I have a sidechain that provides additional tx / contract features, has no own coin, and I'd like to secure this sidechain with merged-mining, I have the problem that the only incentive to mine my sidechain is tx fees. So if not all the big pools take part there, it could easily be destroyed by a bigger pool (as happenend in past with merged mining) | 02:25 |
| lclc | e.g. I make a sidechain with gambling, and Luke-Jr doesn't like gambling, so he will kill my sidechain with eligius | 02:25 |
| lclc | any idea how to prevent this? | 02:26 |
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| justanotheruser | lclc: 1) Luke-Jr doesn't dislike gambling 2) You need most miners merged mining your sidechain for it to be secure. If only 10% of the network is mining it (and they're all honest miners), 11% of the network needs to collude to attack it | 02:28 |
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| petertodd | lclc: that's a fundemental flaw of sidechains; two-way pegs give the attackers incentives even if they don't care about your chain | 02:28 |
| lclc | justanotheruser: 1) it seemed so, but ok. was just an example | 02:29 |
| lclc | ok, so no simple solution for this yet | 02:29 |
| petertodd | lclc: mastercoin/counterparty style embedded consensus works, subject to cost and censorship resistance tradeoffs | 02:30 |
| justanotheruser | lclc: the benefits of helping the sidechain have to be great enough so not enough miners are incenvized to attack the network that an attack is likely. | 02:30 |
| petertodd | lclc: (though if you go down that route, you can do *much* better than msc/xcp has done from a tech point of view) | 02:31 |
| lclc | petertodd: interesting, thanks. Have to read up on how they do it | 02:31 |
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| petertodd | lclc: if you're serious about this, send me an email and I'll give you an outline of the best-practice options available right now; basically you should use a structure similar to colored coins if you can help it | 02:32 |
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| lclc | petertodd: I will, thanks. Will read a bit more first so I can ask the right questions :) | 02:34 |
| petertodd | lclc: ha, thanks! | 02:34 |
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| NewLiberty | Is there any reason that a Side Chain could not make use of atomic swaps as well as SPV with its own Main Chain, if the side chain supports the necessary scripting? | 04:17 |
| sipa | yes, of course | 04:17 |
| sipa | but atomic swaps don't change the amount of currency in each chain, they just move ownership in both | 04:17 |
| NewLiberty | Right, it has a different purpose of course. | 04:22 |
| sipa | also, see appendix c of http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf | 04:23 |
| NewLiberty | The presumption is that if atomic swap, or even an exchange would be faster, there may be some premium on speed over the confirmation process of SPV | 04:28 |
| sipa | by SPV, you mean the peg mechanism? | 04:29 |
| sipa | speed and fees | 04:30 |
| NewLiberty | yeah, but I don't like the use of the word peg for this. Pegs always fail in the real world, so bad connotations | 04:30 |
| NewLiberty | this by contrast ought never fail | 04:30 |
| NewLiberty | fast coins tend to be worth more than slow, localbitcoin pricing is proof enough of that. I'm looking for any pernicious economic effects. | 04:32 |
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| NewLiberty | For example, there is some economic incentive to SPV coins from the Main Chain and then exchange them at a premium to take advantage of the fast coin advantage. This could cause more Side Chain coins to be created than are useful for any popular side chain. Step 6: profit | 04:35 |
| NewLiberty | So exchanging via atomic swap may be 1.01:1 instead of 1:1 | 04:38 |
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| sipa | maybe yes | 04:53 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: don't you think at most these tx should have their merkle root put into a tx rather than 1 tx per bitcoin tx? | 04:55 |
| justanotheruser | with merged mining there is an attack risk substituted for a censorship risk and additional space in the main chain. With your "put the tx in an OP_RETURN tx" (which I assume what you mean by best practices), you could just put the whole merkle root in the blockchain. | 05:00 |
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| justanotheruser | And if we're just putting the hash of the tx in the blockchain rather than the full tx that opens you up to, AFAICS, trivial doublespends and conflicting tx. I suppose you would need to put the full tx in a bitcoin tx for security unless your consensus is via putting altcoin block hashes in bitcoin tx and have some selection algorithm choosing the winner. | 05:03 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: I wrote about such a system over a year ago in this very channel; look for "zookeyv". Problem is what constitutes "best practice" depends on how timely your consensus needs to be, and schemes that rely on publishing commitments rather than the data itself don't acheive consensus in a timely fashion. | 05:06 |
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| petertodd | justanotheruser: also, keep in mind when I say "publish data" that data can be made to be indistinguishable from a standard bitcoin transaction to an external observer, making censorship very difficult, if not impossible. (same ideas as behind adam back's thoughts on indistinguishable transactions) | 05:07 |
| petertodd | NewLiberty: sidechain pegging can fail, as you can steal the coins locked up in the peg, so it's quite an appropriate word... | 05:08 |
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| petertodd | justanotheruser: the basic issue is always "whats the incentives to publish data?" and "can a powerful attacker reorganize the chain?" - equally, ask yourself "why aren't hashes good enough for Bitcoin itself?" | 05:12 |
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| justanotheruser | petertodd: I don't see how it can be made indistinguishable. A miner could check whether the tx also led to a confirmation on this altcoin using a modified altcoin client. | 05:12 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: you don't need global consensus | 05:13 |
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| petertodd | justanotheruser: equally, sometimes the global consensus can be indistinguishable - for instance zerocash has a list of revealed nonces, well that list can include nonces "revealed" for reasons other than the zerocash protocol (IIRC - been a few months since I looked into this in detail) | 05:15 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: You don't need consensus within the currency? | 05:16 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: anyway, the thing with censorship, is that you only need a small % of miners deciding to attack your sidechain to make it insecure, while with censorship you need a 50% majority to make it useless - a much, much more secure ssytem | 05:16 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: not in the sense of "every one has every transaction" that I think your thinking of | 05:16 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: but if there needs to be a way to know whether a transaction is valid doesn't there? | 05:17 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: mastercoin and counterparty are badly designed in this respect, but you don't have to go that route | 05:17 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: yes, but imagine, for example, fi "whether a transaction is there" depends on whether or not a bitcoin txout was spent | 05:17 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: miners can check whether that txout being spent causes a transaction "to be there"? | 05:19 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: only if they have the data to know what that txout actually means - that can be hidden from them | 05:19 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: again, look up adam back's thoughts on encrypted blockchains | 05:19 |
| justanotheruser | okay, will do | 05:19 |
| justanotheruser | also, how do you justify forming tx so they increase the size of utxo forever? | 05:20 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: you don't have to implement it that way, but even then, not my problem | 05:20 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: okay, but then miners for sure can tell which tx aren't formed like a regular bitcoin tx. | 05:21 |
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| justanotheruser | or are meant to be bitcoin tx | 05:21 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: nope! lots of ways to steganographically hide data in transactions | 05:21 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: anyway, like I say, even if miners are trying to censor you, and you don't take any precations, you need a greater % of miners trying to censor you to be attacked then you do % to attack you succesfully in a sidechain system | 05:22 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: are you then saying that the pkh should be formed so it conveys some information about the state of this altcoin? | 05:23 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: that's one way to do it, but really, it depends on exactly what you're trying to do; colored coins has it really simple for instance | 05:24 |
| justanotheruser | does colored coins add to the utxo permenantly? | 05:25 |
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| petertodd | justanotheruser: doesn't have to; not much does | 05:26 |
| petertodd | why are you fixated on "adding to the utxo set" anyway? | 05:26 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: ignoring the fact that it makes running a full node more difficult, I think putting altcoin tx information into the blockchain in a way that is unknown to miners (censorship resistant), and not adding to the utxo set permenantly is an interesting problem. | 05:29 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: "interesting problem"? it's been done, multiple times. (e.g. mastercoin/counterparty/etc.) | 05:30 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: it's a trivial problem | 05:30 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: afaik, neither do thta | 05:31 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: er, so, those aren't "unknown to miners" | 05:31 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: *er sorry | 05:31 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: but anyway, the unknown to miners criteria isn't a big deal | 05:31 |
| justanotheruser | it is trivial to do one or the other | 05:31 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: I've got a colored coin library that'll meet both criteria | 05:32 |
| justanotheruser | link? | 05:32 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: not public yet; paid work for a client who wants a first-to-market advantage... | 05:32 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: for more general stuff like I said adam back has worked on this stuff; basically you just need to do things like commit in advance to the encryption key you'll use for the next state in the protocol, which constrains how you'll publish, preventing double spends, yet means the information is unknown to miners so they can't censor it | 05:34 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: once you publish you can reveal the key to whomever you're trying to give some asset too. | 05:34 |
| petertodd | justanotheruser: an even more generic mechanism - albeit a bit impractical - is to use timelock crypto | 05:35 |
| justanotheruser | petertodd: the adam back stuff is in the wizards logs? What keywords should I grep? | 05:42 |
| lclc | petertodd: will the library be FOSS? | 05:50 |
| justanotheruser | is there purpose to trustless coloredcoins (if you want to call them trustless) if you have to trust the author? | 05:51 |
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| kanzure | yes there is general utility in having a global anti-replay oracle | 05:51 |
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| justanotheruser | I guess it doesn't have to be FOSS, but at least open source in order to not have to trust the author. | 05:57 |
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| Luke-Jr | lclc: I'd suggest giving a small house edge to the miner in your particular case - although you should also seriously consider whether doing so would make miners somehow liable in anti-gambling jurisdictions :/ | 09:15 |
| Luke-Jr | lclc: also note petertodd's idea of "best-practice" is in fact "worst possible practice" | 09:16 |
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| justanotheruser | Luke-Jr: his best practices optomize (are best practices for) for the altcoin, not bitcoin | 09:21 |
| justanotheruser | in other words, the best practices for altcoins are probably harmful to bitcoin | 09:21 |
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| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: even then, they're not best practices. | 09:24 |
| Luke-Jr | real best practices for an altcoin are at the very least honest. | 09:24 |
| justanotheruser | I don't know what you mean by that | 09:25 |
| Luke-Jr | I mean his idea of "best practices" are inherently dishonest and not ideal for an altcoin anyway. | 09:25 |
| justanotheruser | what is dishonest? | 09:25 |
| Luke-Jr | forcing others to do things against their will | 09:25 |
| heath | has there been a change in protocol in response to this: http://ifca.ai/fc14/papers/fc14_submission_82.pdf | 09:26 |
| justanotheruser | I would disagree that altcoins care about that in general then :P | 09:26 |
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| Luke-Jr | heath: no, it wasn't a real problem | 09:26 |
| heath | Luke-Jr: was their a conversation on github about this? | 09:27 |
| heath | i'm curious how this was debunked | 09:27 |
| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: just because there's a lack of honest altcoins doesn't mean it's not a best practice :p | 09:27 |
| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: none of the exchanges implement best practices, for example | 09:27 |
| Luke-Jr | heath: more likely on IRC | 09:27 |
| justanotheruser | Luke-Jr: "best" defined by altcoiners tends to be properties that benefit them and disregard bitcoin full nodes | 09:28 |
| hearn | a best practice, by definition, is something that is practised | 09:28 |
| hearn | if nobody implements it then it may be a good idea, but it's not (yet) a best practice | 09:28 |
| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: only if you go by majority which is obviously scamcoiners | 09:29 |
| Luke-Jr | hearn: fair enough | 09:29 |
| heath | i've heard two complaints recently about bitcoin: | 09:29 |
| heath | 1. the infrastructure is being built by volunteers, and so it is not sustainable :: mike hearn | 09:29 |
| heath | - "you can't have a large spanning financial infrastructure which is held together by chewing gum, sticky tape, and people who work on it when they have time and they feel like it." | 09:29 |
| heath | - dispute mediation & risk analysis services may be needed | 09:29 |
| heath | 2. when there are no more bitcoins to mine, miners may have incentives to only mine the largest transactions ::random article on the internet i can't find | 09:29 |
| Luke-Jr | heath: 1 is being mostly resolved; 2 is nonsense | 09:30 |
| justanotheruser | heath: pretty much every committed committer is being paid to develop right now | 09:30 |
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| hearn | heath: random article on the internet you can't find may not be the most reliable source in the world ;) | 09:31 |
| hearn | heath: you're probably thinking of the how-will-fees-work-post-inflation stuff | 09:31 |
| justanotheruser | wladmir is paid by the bitcoin foundation and everyone else either has stake in or is being paid by blockstream iirc | 09:31 |
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| justanotheruser | heath: 2 is probably referring to ,,(bc,wiki tragedy commons) | 09:32 |
| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: I think Diapolo is currently left out | 09:32 |
| justanotheruser | Luke-Jr: no offense to him, but is he a critical dev? I know he has a ton of commits, but iirc, he only works on the GUI. | 09:32 |
| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: if the GUI is considered critical :p | 09:33 |
| hearn | foundation employs three developers right now: wladimir, gavin and cory | 09:33 |
| hearn | blockstream now employs a few more, sipa at least seems to be doing full bitcoin stuff right now, though they have other projects too i guess | 09:34 |
| justanotheruser | Luke-Jr: I'm not sure if it is especially after libbitcoinconsensus is done. | 09:34 |
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| sipa | justanotheruser: i don't see how the GUI being critical has anything to do with that? | 09:35 |
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| justanotheruser | sipa: There are many clients with GUIs already (including SPV clients and btcd). While GUIs may be critical, the -Qt GUI development stopping wouldn't be a problem. | 09:37 |
| justanotheruser | s/stopping/slowing | 09:37 |
| sipa | i don't consider the Qt GUI particularly relevant, whether libconsensus is there or not | 09:37 |
| justanotheruser | well the original discussion was about the QT GUI. The GUI may be critical, but his development may not be critical enough to require pay since there are many GUIs that are being developed. | 09:39 |
| hearn | how to fund end user wallets is still an open question | 09:39 |
| justanotheruser | these GUIs can't have bitcoin consensus just plugged in until the library is done. | 09:39 |
| sipa | i don't see why a GUI wallet needs consensus code at all | 09:39 |
| tacotime | yeah, node-wallet-gui is generally antiquated | 09:40 |
| tacotime | we're trying to steer away from it at monero | 09:40 |
| sipa | i hope everyone is | 09:40 |
| justanotheruser | sipa: well it is nice to not have to run two programs especially if you're a new user. | 09:41 |
| sipa | it is to not have to run a full node especially if you're a new user | 09:41 |
| sipa | *nice | 09:41 |
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| sipa | justanotheruser: i'm talking about a situation where you either run a full node in the background if you need one, or connect to other nodes if you don't (SPV) | 09:42 |
| sipa | in either case, the wallet can be an entirely separate codebase from the consensus code | 09:42 |
| tacotime | it's harder with monero because there's no easy way to make a utxo set due to ring signatures, but we're working on software development models where the user can run a pseudo-daemon that is easy to set up, and just pulls blocks and stores outputs rather than acts as a full node. | 09:42 |
| justanotheruser | true. Either way, there are a myriad of GUIs that can run in front of bitcoind. | 09:42 |
| lclc | Luke-Jr: interesting idea (paying small house edge to miners), thanks! | 09:44 |
| Luke-Jr | sipa: I consider the Qt GUI somewhat important (though not critical) since all the other wallet GUIs suck :P | 09:45 |
| sipa | imho, all wallet guis suck, including qt :) | 09:46 |
| Luke-Jr | even after it's split | 09:46 |
| Luke-Jr | pfft, I like it :P | 09:46 |
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| Luke-Jr | otoh, I'm also patching it so I like it <.< | 09:46 |
| sipa | ok, please don't stop using it then :) | 09:46 |
| justanotheruser | Luke-Jr: would you like electrum if it properly represented bitcoin? | 09:46 |
| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: probably not, it'd still be ugly | 09:47 |
| hearn | hah | 09:47 |
| hearn | it's getting a lot easier to make pretty wallet frontends these days | 09:47 |
| hearn | i'm sure there will be plenty more in future | 09:47 |
| hearn | a wallet to suit every man's personal taste (also women's) | 09:47 |
| Luke-Jr | justanotheruser: if it implemented HD wallets correctly, it might get close enough to be an easy 15 minute fork to clean up though XD | 09:48 |
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| Luke-Jr | hearn: yeah, hopefully at some point there will be an easy to use SPV library | 09:48 |
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| Luke-Jr | that wallets can just link to and throw their own behaviour/GUI on top of | 09:48 |
| hearn | ouch :) | 09:48 |
| Luke-Jr | ? | 09:48 |
| sipa | lol | 09:49 |
| hearn | that's pretty much what bitcoinj already is. you can make a wallet gui with it in about 30 minutes | 09:49 |
| Luke-Jr | oh | 09:49 |
| Luke-Jr | I don't even consider Java when I think of things :P | 09:49 |
| hearn | you can write them in lots of languages, so that's ok | 09:49 |
| hearn | python, ruby, javascript, a lisp, functional languages .... | 09:49 |
| Luke-Jr | hearn: without a Java runtime? | 09:49 |
| justanotheruser | hearn: can't bitcoinj also be used to make a full node? | 09:49 |
| hearn | nope, you need the jvm. not sure why that'd be an issue though. it's just a big runtime library, like qt | 09:49 |
| hearn | it can be bundled with apps quite easily | 09:50 |
| Luke-Jr | exactly, that's why I don't use GTK or Ruby software either :P | 09:50 |
| hearn | justanotheruser: it doesn't listen on the network so no | 09:50 |
| * Luke-Jr ponders if BitcoinJ would build with GCJ | 09:50 | |
| hearn | GCJ is pretty old. you can use it with a tool called avian, that builds a single native binary (it's actually a small jvm that has the java compiled into the elf) | 09:50 |
| hearn | gcj does not eliminate the need for a runtime, of course | 09:51 |
| Luke-Jr | GCJ elimiates JIT stuff | 09:51 |
| Luke-Jr | I think | 09:51 |
| hearn | yeah. though the end result is not necessarily better. | 09:52 |
| hearn | you just don't like JITCs on principle? | 09:52 |
| Luke-Jr | pretty much | 09:52 |
| Luke-Jr | even if you managed to get memory use reasonable and CPU time eliminated, it'd still be a pain to debug stuff | 09:53 |
| Luke-Jr | (part of using Gentoo is so I can build everything with debug-friendly CFLAGS) | 09:53 |
| hearn | i guess it depends what you define as reasonable, but memory usage and startup time aren't a big deal these days, unless you're running on a 486 with 16mb of ram or something :) | 09:53 |
| Luke-Jr | I suppose GDB extensions could be made to fix that too, but meh | 09:53 |
| hearn | anything jvm based is a LOT easier to debug than anything C based though. you should try it some time. the debuggers can navigate the entire object graph easily, it's a lot more robust than gdb | 09:54 |
| hearn | indeed that's one of the advantages ... you get good debuggers. most platforms or interpreted environments don't have that. also better heap profilers, cpu profilers, etc. | 09:55 |
| Luke-Jr | hm | 09:55 |
| Luke-Jr | same CLI interface? ;) | 09:56 |
| hearn | there is, actually | 09:57 |
| hearn | it's called <surprise> jdb | 09:57 |
| hearn | though i never use it. it's easier to visualise what's happening when you have a gui debugger and can see the code, jump around, explore it etc | 09:57 |
| Luke-Jr | once upon a time I used insight, but RedHat seems to have abandoned it. it was nice to be able to use CLI while having visualisations | 09:58 |
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| MRL-Relay | [surae] you know, poisson processes always seemed fishy to me | 14:42 |
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| gandalf | are there any storj like projects built with multisginatures transactions on bitcoin? | 15:01 |
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| tromp | interesting whitepaper by Charles Hoskinson at http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/2m0j5l/why_was_my_post_removed/ | 16:50 |
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| pigeons | suprise, he named it after himself | 17:02 |
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| gmaxwell | tromp: I'm very confused about that. It in the past he's tried pressuring me into endorsing varrious asset sales he was involved in, and responded quite rudely when I questioned the ethics of his behavior, citing some of the points this paper makes. | 17:08 |
| gmaxwell | I suppose the plan is to cash out a huge amount from the ethereum presale and then position himself to get hired as an expert by regulators? | 17:09 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: That's a novel theory at least :) | 17:18 |
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| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: OP_NULL: thank you. i can see i have to give up saying a proper disincentive is possible without a soft-fork. | 17:31 |
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| tacotime | gmaxwell: that's the hoskinson way i would guess. bitshares --> ethereum --> regulation ??? | 17:48 |
| tacotime | and i figure he's already totally cashed out of ethereum | 17:48 |
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| tacotime | he did most of the budget for marketing and dev collection before the fundraiser, so i figure the goal was to push a lot in to pump and then make some money if the fundraiser was successful, which is why he's off the project now. | 17:49 |
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| tacotime | the whole document is terribly ironic given the history of the ethereum ipo. | 17:56 |
| tacotime | the document is here as the ethereum subreddit appears to have removed it (lol) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xG1hkPbk0uuavjPc_gt_eWxEUbWM1SlsxNmhGdRIUtg/edit?usp=sharing | 17:57 |
| gmaxwell | It's just very weird. | 17:58 |
| gmaxwell | I wonder if it actually was written by him, and isn't instead a really clever attack. | 17:59 |
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| user7779078 | hoskinson is bad news, always has been always will be. i hear he got kicked out of bitshares for some proper sketchy stuff. that's all i'll say | 18:10 |
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| super3 | its kind of interesting though, both bitshares and ethereum have been quite successful though | 18:18 |
| phantomcircuit | super3, at collecting money | 18:18 |
| phantomcircuit | important to make the distinction | 18:19 |
| super3 | yes | 18:19 |
| phantomcircuit | i expect them both to get in huge amounts of trouble | 18:19 |
| super3 | i worked at bitshares for a little while | 18:21 |
| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: aren't they just selling their product? They aren't selling shares in their company. | 18:25 |
| super3 | ethereum will be just fine | 18:25 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, they're not though | 18:25 |
| super3 | they are very distributed, and have tons of resources and legal to protect them | 18:25 |
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| phantomcircuit | they're selling something which only has value if they make it valuable; but more so have promised to do a bunch of things to make them valuable which a naive person would expect they can do, which they almost certainly cannot do | 18:26 |
| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: ok, so there problem is false advertising, not running an IPO. | 18:27 |
| phantomcircuit | and then they did a bunch of legal shenanigans which will look suppper incriminating when they finally do get charged with something | 18:27 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, what they're doing looks, acts, and quacks like and ipo | 18:28 |
| woah | who? | 18:28 |
| phantomcircuit | if the sec charges them they're going to have a very very hard time refuting the allegation | 18:28 |
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| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, it's arguably fraud, the only distinction is whether they believed they could do it or not | 18:29 |
| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: what is fraud? them misrepresenting their cryptocurrency? | 18:29 |
| phantomcircuit | their problem is that they were expressing supreme confidence that they can do it | 18:29 |
| OP_NULL | phantomcircuit: there's more than that too. there's a lot of claims in their original promotion that it's just selling fuel, not a currency, and so forth. then they have an official blog right next to it with phrases like "ethereum exchanges" and "the price of ethereum". | 18:29 |
| phantomcircuit | but certainly have internal emails which are less confident | 18:29 |
| phantomcircuit | the distinction could be enough for a fraud suit | 18:29 |
| woah | i gave them btc | 18:30 |
| justanotheruser | woah: I'm sorry | 18:30 |
| woah | i don't mind if it doesn't work out | 18:30 |
| woah | the only thing that would make me mad is if they didnt spend the money on open source software development | 18:30 |
| phantomcircuit | woah, sure, but im sure there are plenty of people who gave them btc and expect they will build what they said they would | 18:30 |
| phantomcircuit | it would literally only take one person to hold them to it | 18:31 |
| woah | idunno man, are you familiar with tech startups? | 18:32 |
| justanotheruser | so are you saying this will be *the* shitshow of altcoins? | 18:32 |
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| justanotheruser | vitalek gets arrested, bitcoin community divided on how they feel about it, thousands of bitcoins lost, lots of I told you so's, don't trust this altcoin, nooooo this altcoin is different. | 18:33 |
| phantomcircuit | woah, sure and any startup which did what they did would endup in jail | 18:33 |
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| phantomcircuit | general solicitation | 18:33 |
| woah | what did they do? | 18:34 |
| phantomcircuit | unaccredited investors | 18:34 |
| woah | oh i see | 18:34 |
| phantomcircuit | both serious sec violations | 18:34 |
| woah | aren't they changing those laws? | 18:34 |
| phantomcircuit | woah, not in a way that etherium would be compliant | 18:34 |
| OP_NULL | doesn't matter if the law changes after the fact anyway. | 18:34 |
| user7779078 | and the SEC has stalled those for month | 18:34 |
| user7779078 | months* | 18:34 |
| phantomcircuit | general solicitation will be allowed through registered broker/dealers | 18:34 |
| phantomcircuit | investor restrictions will be relaxed within limits through registered broker/dealers | 18:35 |
| woah | so this is about accreditation? | 18:35 |
| justanotheruser | poor vitalek then | 18:35 |
| phantomcircuit | notice this all requires you use a registered broker/dealer | 18:35 |
| woah | so, any coin ipo then? | 18:35 |
| phantomcircuit | woah, accredited investor basically means someone with enough money that the sec isn't going to protect them from themself | 18:35 |
| phantomcircuit | woah, if you build the software AND THEN sell the coins | 18:36 |
| OP_NULL | justanotheruser: you could say that if he tripped and accidentally made a crowd funding website, not if it was done intentionally in another country to skirt around the law. | 18:36 |
| phantomcircuit | you might be ok | 18:36 |
| woah | no startups say that when getting investment | 18:36 |
| phantomcircuit | (notice the might, that is super important here...0 | 18:36 |
| woah | seems to work out ok sometimes | 18:36 |
| woah | anyway not trying to argue, we'll see | 18:37 |
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| woah | i, personally, have no great love for accreditation laws | 18:38 |
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| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: So what if microsoft had a presale of xboxlive points? | 18:39 |
| justanotheruser | (before the xbox was made)) | 18:39 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, closed loop presale | 18:39 |
| phantomcircuit | rules are clear | 18:40 |
| phantomcircuit | not convertible, daily sale limits, etc etc | 18:40 |
| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: not convertible? | 18:40 |
| OP_NULL | phantomcircuit: what part of Ethereum were you saying is impossible? | 18:41 |
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| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, microsoft wont buy your points back | 18:41 |
| phantomcircuit | they will sell you services for the points | 18:41 |
| phantomcircuit | but will not give you cash | 18:41 |
| justanotheruser | phantomcircuit: will ethereum buy my dollars back? | 18:42 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, ethereum doesn't provide a service in return for ethers | 18:43 |
| phantomcircuit | http://fincen.gov/news_room/nr/html/20111102.html | 18:43 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, but actually yeah if i was microsoft i would not be preselling xboxlive points | 18:43 |
| phantomcircuit | regardless ethereum didn't follow the closed loop prepaid access requirements either | 18:44 |
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| phantomcircuit | specifically the limit of 10k/day/person | 18:44 |
| phantomcircuit | and kyc requirements | 18:45 |
| phantomcircuit | justanotheruser, as you can see they could have done a bunch of stuff that would have potentially gave them an arguement that what they did wasn't x but was y | 18:45 |
| phantomcircuit | except they have also violated all the rules for doing y | 18:45 |
| OP_NULL | they actually avoided even collecting email addresses, which was a weird choice. | 18:45 |
| gmaxwell | might be forced to return the funds... | 18:46 |
| phantomcircuit | <OP_NULL> phantomcircuit: what part of Ethereum were you saying is impossible? | 18:46 |
| phantomcircuit | getting the incentives correct to make a distributed consensus for computationally intense transactions correct is likely impossible without snarks and that is moon maths | 18:46 |
| phantomcircuit | (even then it is likely beyond their abilities) | 18:47 |
| phantomcircuit | OP_NULL, the meaningful question is whether the level of confidence they put out to the world matches the level of confidence they had internally | 18:47 |
| phantomcircuit | i very seriously doubt they match | 18:47 |
| phantomcircuit | anyways standard | 18:49 |
| phantomcircuit | im not a lawyer, im not your lawyer, blah blah | 18:49 |
| gmaxwell | I wouldn't know if I should me more worried that there was an information asymmetry there, or more concerned that there might not be. | 18:49 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, with asymmetry it's fraud, without it's just being stupid | 18:49 |
| phantomcircuit | the magic of common law systems in which intent matters | 18:51 |
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| OP_NULL | gmaxwell: "refunds" in the same way that another crowd funded thing (buttercoin, I think) did it probably. they sent all the outputs they received back to the "from" address, naturally losing lots of people's money in the first place. | 18:57 |
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| phantomcircuit | OP_NULL, the way ethereum did the ether sale is extremely suspicious | 21:20 |
| phantomcircuit | i dont think it's even technically possible for them to do refunds | 21:20 |
| OP_NULL | phantomcircuit: yes, agreed. they set it up in a frankly insane way, I don't even understand how it can possibly work. | 21:23 |
| OP_NULL | phantomcircuit: client made a seed k, made a bitcoin address sha256(k), sent money to it. made an ethereum address with sha256(k+0x01). I don't understand how they intend to prove the two are related. | 21:24 |
| phantomcircuit | OP_NULL, surely you mean address as sha256(pubkey(k)) | 21:28 |
| OP_NULL | phantomcircuit: er, yeah in both cases I was talking about the private key. so the Bitcoin private key is sha256(k), ethereum one is sha256(k+0x01). | 21:29 |
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| phantomcircuit | OP_NULL, er doesn't that mean someone who sent them btc can reclaim it? or are they send a copy of k | 21:32 |
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| OP_NULL | phantomcircuit: no, the client made the bitcoin address, the buyer sent money to the bitcoin address, and then spent those outputs again to the ethereum presale address. there's no outputs left in the midway bitcoin address. | 21:34 |
| phantomcircuit | OP_NULL, oh | 21:34 |
| phantomcircuit | uh | 21:36 |
| phantomcircuit | they cant correlate them unless you tell them k | 21:36 |
| OP_NULL | yeah. that's the problem. you can sign each address with the other, but that seems terribly messy. | 21:37 |
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| OP_NULL | phantomcircuit: https://github.com/ethereum/pyethsaletool/blob/master/pyethsaletool.py#L124 | 21:39 |
| phantomcircuit | sha3 | 21:44 |
| phantomcircuit | wat | 21:44 |
| phantomcircuit | lol @ using unnecessarily bleeding edge crypto | 21:44 |
| OP_NULL | that was when they had SHA3 based proof of work (better than crusty old Bitcoin's SHA256). | 21:44 |
| phantomcircuit | huh | 21:45 |
| phantomcircuit | assuming sha3 isn't broken | 21:46 |
| phantomcircuit | there is no way for them to correlate pubkey(sha3(seed)) with pubkey(sha3(seed+1)) | 21:46 |
| phantomcircuit | unless you give them seedd | 21:46 |
| OP_NULL | pub1 can sign pub2 and vice versa, but that's very ugly to put in your genesis block. I really don't think they thought that one through very well. | 21:47 |
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| OP_NULL | phantomcircuit: actually that can't be right either. the network will have no knowledge of the ethereum address at all. | 21:54 |
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| Taek | sha3 is bleeding edge crypto? | 22:51 |
| OP_NULL | I don't think it's even finalized yet. | 22:53 |
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| OP_NULL | there's a joke there about bleeding edge and sponge functions, but I couldn't make it work. | 22:54 |
| Taek | "The standardization process is in progress as of November 2014" | 22:55 |
| BlueMatt | so....very bleeding edge | 22:56 |
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| gmaxwell | yea, they've changed the spec a bit a couple times too. Though mostly changed it back now. | 23:13 |
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| Taek | I guess I'm surprised because sha3 has been available in the go standard library for well over a year. I wouldn't have expected non-finalized crypto to be in standard libraries. Perhaps that was naive. | 23:29 |
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| BlueMatt | over a year is also very bleeding edge crypto.... | 23:58 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Nov 12 00:00:48 2014 | ||
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