| --- Day changed Tue Dec 02 2014 | ||
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| gwillen | gmaxwell: sounds actually vaguely interesting........ not $700 of interesting | 00:09 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | what is up with these conference attendee fees | 00:12 |
| fluffypony | I was going to go to Money 20/20 when we were in Vegas | 00:13 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, that's funny | 00:13 |
| fluffypony | but the fees were insane | 00:13 |
| phantomcircuit | i went to that in 2011 i think | 00:13 |
| phantomcircuit | it was all | 00:13 |
| phantomcircuit | MOBILE PAYMENTS!!! | 00:13 |
| phantomcircuit | and charlie shrem hecking some guy from citi bank | 00:13 |
| fluffypony | lol | 00:13 |
| phantomcircuit | it was also not $700 | 00:14 |
| fluffypony | yeah it was like $2000 | 00:14 |
| fluffypony | well this Future of Money conference just looks like a shilling platform for Stellar | 00:14 |
| fluffypony | so there's that | 00:14 |
| phantomcircuit | lol no way i would have paid that | 00:14 |
| phantomcircuit | it was like $110 or something | 00:14 |
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| fluffypony | http://money2020.com/register | 00:14 |
| fluffypony | "The fee for general admission to Money20/20 is $2,950. We do not offer any exhibit hall-only or partial attendance rates." | 00:15 |
| phantomcircuit | yeah it was $240 | 00:18 |
| phantomcircuit | fluffypony, i remember seeing that and thinking | 00:19 |
| phantomcircuit | "who the fuck pays that" | 00:19 |
| phantomcircuit | but apparently it was packed | 00:19 |
| fluffypony | lol | 00:19 |
| phantomcircuit | soooo they must have given away a ton of free tickets | 00:19 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, you think they would let me in free if you insisted that i was your assistant and was 1000% necessary | 00:20 |
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| andytoshi | usually speakers can bring a guest, surely he can write #bitcoin-wizards? | 06:11 |
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| kanzure | huh that's very interesting. i was emailing zisk for a few months, had no idea he was that focused on altcoins. | 06:43 |
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| gmaxwell | In any case, if there is anyone listed there that any of you want to dispatch me to talk to; feel free to request. | 07:00 |
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| stonecoldpat | the summit doesnt look that bad, at least there is a cocktail party afterwards (y) | 07:05 |
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| gmaxwell | ohh... someone on libpbc mailing list talking about implementing non-interactive forward security for openpgp. | 07:30 |
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| pigeons | i went to money2020 last year courtesy of a company quite similar to stellar and any talks about bitcoin typed things seemed to be atteded by lots of compliance officers complaining about all the "loopholes" and banks saying you coudnt scale it enough for their needs | 09:19 |
| pigeons | not many interesting technical talks at all, more like a place to meet traditional financial service company contacts | 09:19 |
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| pigeons | everyone loves m-pesa though, cause there seems to be some good "control" over it | 09:20 |
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| gmaxwell | "They're hacking the ram on registers, in ten years drones are going to be shooting lasers to steal your identity." | 11:39 |
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| jgarzik | ram on registers, that makes no sense | 12:34 |
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| jgarzik | registers are more fundamental than ram | 12:35 |
| jgarzik | but anyway, cute quote ;p | 12:35 |
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| instagibbs | jgarzik: registers at shops, not registers on CPUs :P | 12:42 |
| sipa | ha | 12:43 |
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| super3 | hello | 12:50 |
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| bramm | Hey everybody | 14:38 |
| bramm | I have questions about this, if anybody can help me: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=193281.msg2224949#msg2224949 | 14:39 |
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| bramm | Hey web deli | 14:39 |
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| andytoshi | hi bramm, probably a few peoople can help you ... i adapted that post for the sidechains wp, iirc it was pretty hard to read (hence my writing out the protocol in full in the whitepaper) | 14:43 |
| bramm | andytoshi, I have some really dumb questions about it | 14:44 |
| andytoshi | bramm: i can help, i'm eating tho so will be slow | 14:45 |
| bramm | Like, what does it mean to pay from a transaction? Isn't a transaction a thing that goes through or not? And won't the result of the transaction be money going from A to B or vice versa? | 14:45 |
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| andytoshi | ah, right, that was the kinda thing that made me go "huh?" i believe "TX1 pays from TX2" means one of TX1's inputs is one of TX2's outputs | 14:47 |
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| bramm | So what you're calling O1 in the whitepaper is a special coin | 14:51 |
| andytoshi | yeah | 14:51 |
| andytoshi | (where "coin" means "unspent output", which is not really standard lingo outside of here and -dev) | 14:51 |
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| bramm | I'm not sure what you mean by that subtlety | 14:53 |
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| bramm | In any case, it appears to be that there are two things this needs beyond the spend ability of coins being based on sets keys to sign them. It needs to be able to use a pre-image as one of the 'signatures', and it needs to be able to use it being a certain time as one of the 'signatures'. | 14:54 |
| bramm | How does this 'lock time' thing work? | 14:54 |
| andytoshi | that's right ... bitcoin has a full script system to support both hash preimages and ECDSA keys (see https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf for a high level overview and also what i mean by "unspent outputs") | 14:55 |
| andytoshi | the locktime thing is weird in that it's outside of script ... | 14:55 |
| andytoshi | ... it's a field on the transaction itself which declares how long the blockchain has to be before it can be included | 14:56 |
| andytoshi | so you can create transactions that aren't valid yet, but definitely will be in the future | 14:56 |
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| bramm | So it's by generation number or block number or however people refer to that in bit coin? | 14:57 |
| andytoshi | typically as "undo" transactions in case of a stalled protocol (where successful protocol completion spends one of the locked tx's inputs, invalidating it forever), or as deposits | 14:57 |
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| sipa | bramm: it's a block height or unix timestamp | 14:57 |
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| sipa | the reason (presumably) for not making it part of the scripting logic itself, is because transactions shouldn't become invalid once they are valid - that can lead to fungibility problems | 14:57 |
| bramm | sipa, Thanks, 'block height' is the term I was looking for | 14:57 |
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| sipa | right, i guess that's bitcoin specific terminology; depth is how many blocks a transaction has on top, height is how far from the genesis block it is | 14:58 |
| bramm | I don't know what you mean 'on top' | 14:58 |
| NewLiberty | subsequent = on top | 14:59 |
| sipa | genesis <------N blocks----> block with your transaction <----- M blocks----> the current active best chain tip | 14:59 |
| sipa | N is the height, M is the depth | 14:59 |
| bramm | Ah, I see | 14:59 |
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| bramm | This is mixing analogies in a horrible way | 14:59 |
| andytoshi | :) | 15:00 |
| bramm | But I'll use consistent terminology | 15:00 |
| NewLiberty | It is easy to think about for a child playing with blocks, harder for programmers | 15:00 |
| sipa | you have to see the blockchain as a stack, i guess, growing from low to high | 15:00 |
| bramm | Oh, so 'depth' means 'how buried it is' | 15:00 |
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| sipa | bingo | 15:00 |
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| cbeams | andytoshi: your bitcoin-faq is a pleasure to read. thank you. | 15:05 |
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| bramm | Oh, so 'unspent outputs' basically means 'coins' | 15:07 |
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| bramm | andytoshi, Isn't it really a directed acyclic graph instead of a tree? | 15:07 |
| sipa | bramm: sorry, what is a DAG instead of a tree (missing some context here)? | 15:09 |
| andytoshi | bramm: yup, oops, did i say "tree" without even a footnote or something? | 15:09 |
| andytoshi | "DAG" is too technical for that faq, but i should have mentioned it.. | 15:09 |
| bramm | sipa, Oh sorry, from andytoshi's bit coin FAQ, he describes there being a tree of transactions | 15:09 |
| bramm | andytoshi, Yeah there's no footnote about it being a DAG | 15:10 |
| bramm | What happens when an output is partially spent? | 15:10 |
| midnightmagic | bramm: it depends on how the transaction is formed. | 15:11 |
| midnightmagic | bramm: If you have 5 btc input, and output 2.5 btc, the rest can be collected as fees by the miner | 15:11 |
| sipa | bramm: there is no such thing as partial spending | 15:11 |
| sipa | a coin is created once, and spent entirely once | 15:11 |
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| bramm | Ah, gotcha | 15:12 |
| sipa | which is why bitcoin transaction have the concept of 'change'; a new output that goes back to an address of the spender | 15:12 |
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| bramm | So if you send something to a public key, you aren't sending to an account, you're making a new coin which just happens to use that public key | 15:12 |
| sipa | for privacy reasons, it should be a fresh address, and made to look similar to the other outputs | 15:12 |
| midnightmagic | sipa: you might call a partial spend an input which isn't satisfied by the output + fees collected by miners.. but I think what I did might be the only instance of that happening | 15:12 |
| roasbeef | a transaction destroys input coins and creates new ones | 15:12 |
| andytoshi | lol "chains (actually trees)" i'll add another parens "(actually directed acyclic graphs)" | 15:13 |
| sipa | right: bitcoin transactions 'melt' coins and produce new ones from it, with potentially different amounts, and different owners | 15:13 |
| sipa | only the amount created cannot exceed the amount destroyed | 15:13 |
| bramm | How do people find out about their new coins? | 15:13 |
| sipa | wallets that watch the blockchain/p2p net | 15:14 |
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| bramm | So do wallets ask for any new outputs for their own keys? | 15:18 |
| bramm | Does that go for both directions, both spending and receiving? | 15:18 |
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| midnightmagic | bramm: the code itself only verifies(ied?) that the outputs are not > total input amounts. It is possible to destroy bitcoins if the spender's output amounts are less than input amounts *and* the miner doesn't pay himself the overage as fees in the coinbase. I did this, for example, in block 124724 by underpaying myself by (the fees of the transaction + 0.00000001) which means the fees and that one satoshi are destroyed | 15:19 |
| sipa | every full node sees every transaction, so if the wallet is connected to a full node, there is no problem | 15:19 |
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| sipa | bramm: for lighter node, see BIP 37 | 15:19 |
| sipa | it uses a bloom-filter based approach | 15:19 |
| AdrianG | what are the odds of the bitcoin foundation (or some other corp) finally hiring full time test engineers to work on the bitcoin core? | 15:19 |
| sipa | AdrianG: #bitcoin or #bitcoin-dev | 15:19 |
| bramm | There's a fair amount of transactional overhead in support of (partial) anonymity | 15:23 |
| bramm | An unfortunate disadvantage to payments going to keys rather than accounts is that if I post my account info I can't just re-key it later, I have to update my pub key information | 15:25 |
| sipa | right, which is why many people believe that it shouldn't be called 'an address', but rather an 'invoice id' or something | 15:25 |
| sipa | address implies persistence, which is bad for privacy | 15:25 |
| sipa | schemes like BIP32 or the payment protocol or stealth transactions add some infrastructure to not reuse keys | 15:26 |
| sipa | without complicating things for the user | 15:26 |
| lechuga_ | bramm: planning a project? :) | 15:34 |
| bramm | lechuga_, Obviously I'm working on something, but I'm not saying what right now | 15:34 |
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| lechuga_ | nod | 15:35 |
| lechuga_ | awesome that u are | 15:36 |
| bramm | There are a number of features involving multiple keys which are nice to have which are also horrible for privacy | 15:36 |
| bramm | I have a feeling if I came in here asking these dumb questions under an assumed name people would be being a lot less patient with me | 15:37 |
| lechuga_ | not an entirely incorrect instinct | 15:37 |
| lechuga_ | creator of bittorrent gets a pass | 15:37 |
| sipa | bramm: you may be right :) | 15:37 |
| bramm | It's nice that there's this channel for this sort of discussion though. I found it by accident when someone on twitter mentioned it tangentially in response to something I said | 15:39 |
| andytoshi | bramm: please don't try it ;) | 15:39 |
| sipa | tbh, much of the previous discussion belongs in #bitcoin or #bitcoin-dev | 15:41 |
| andytoshi | fwiw while some of your questions would probably be redirected to #bitcoin, the fact that you react to explanations and update your understanding makes patience worthwhile | 15:41 |
| andytoshi | if you were just arguing, i expectt no amount celebrity status would help you | 15:42 |
| bramm | Can lock times have a maximum in addition to a minimum? | 15:43 |
| sipa | no, only a minimum | 15:43 |
| sipa | 23:57:58 < sipa> the reason (presumably) for not making it part of the scripting logic itself, is because transactions shouldn't become invalid once they are valid - that can lead to fungibility problems | 15:43 |
| andytoshi | bramm: no, this would be dangerous because if a reorg happened which bumped a transaction out of a block, that tx could become forever invalidated | 15:44 |
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| bramm | andytoshi, I appreciate that people are being patient with me. And yeah, I could take some of these questions to #bitcoin, or preface everything with 'how about X?' rather than asking questions first, but since people aren't getting mad at me I'm keeping discussion all in the same channel and going in and out of new proposals, trying to not say anything completely asinine by asking questions first | 15:44 |
| andytoshi | right now transactions can't be forever invalidated, even in a reorg, except by deliberate action by its spender | 15:44 |
| bramm | What is this transaction 'validation' thing? | 15:45 |
| andytoshi | bramm: it's cool, i think we'd all like to be more patient but it gets abused easily by people who just want to argue or grind axes | 15:45 |
| andytoshi | bramm: presumably you don't want to wreck your reputation, hence more patience than somebody with no reputation whatsoever | 15:45 |
| gavinandresen | … if you’re thinking of using a DHT to implement a proof of stake system then you’ll see how quick we get annoyed…. | 15:45 |
| sipa | using rainbow tables | 15:46 |
| lechuga_ | lol | 15:46 |
| andytoshi | bramm: a transaction is either valid or not ... it is valid if it is well-formed, the signatures validate, etc, and also if all of its inputs are unspent outputs | 15:46 |
| sipa | < gmaxwell> Someday I'm going to get myself invited to some conference with the president, and while he's talking about some middle east conflict thing— I'm going to ask if they've considered using a DHT. | 15:47 |
| andytoshi | bramm: so you can invalidate a transaction by spending one of its inputs ... but you have to do this deliberately by creating a conflicting tx and exploiting a reorg to get it into the blockchain | 15:47 |
| bramm | gavinandresen, If any of you would like to ask me questions about DHTs I'd be happy to answer. The sort of thing you just made a joke about makes no sense to me, which is probably the point. | 15:47 |
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| sipa | bramm: you have no idea how many people have suggested that bitcoin should use DHTs :) | 15:48 |
| andytoshi | bramm: the joke is, there was a long period when people would come here saying "why not replace the blockchain with a DHT?" without any concept of what a blockchain does or what a DHT does | 15:48 |
| bramm | DHTs actually work a lot better than I expected. We've got the BitTorrent one working very robustly *for peer finding* | 15:48 |
| sipa | right, there would be no problem using it for peer finding in bitcoin either | 15:49 |
| bramm | andytoshi, Yeah that isn't even a properly formed question. 'Why not replace an apple with a quaternion?' | 15:49 |
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| sipa | or even for doing fetching of historic blocks | 15:49 |
| sipa | but for anything that has DoS risk or consensus risk... | 15:49 |
| bramm | fetching historic blocks wouldn't be a good use of DHTs either | 15:50 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, bestest quote ever | 15:51 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, it's relatively easy to censor a dht | 15:51 |
| sipa | bramm: right, sure | 15:52 |
| bramm | phantomcircuit, It's a lot harder than you think | 15:52 |
| bramm | phantomcircuit, Although a lot of it has to do with what you mean by 'censor' | 15:52 |
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| sipa | it's just that initial sync isn't very vulnerable | 15:52 |
| phantomcircuit | bramm, it's relatively easy to censor a dht if you've got a giant botnet | 15:52 |
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| sipa | at worst, it goes slow or not at all - but that won't split the network or cause any loss of money | 15:52 |
| phantomcircuit | afaict the only reason the bittorrent dht survives is because nobody with the ability to launch a massive sybil attack wants to | 15:53 |
| bramm | phantomcircuit, If your botnet has many more IP addresses than the DHT you can pull it off, but for the BitTorrent DHT that's a really huge botnet | 15:53 |
| sipa | how many nodes does it have? | 15:53 |
| bramm | I think somewhere around 30 million | 15:53 |
| sipa | wow | 15:53 |
| bramm | phantomcircuit, There are similar attacks on bit coin with occupying peer slots, there are countermeasures for those as well but for the most part it seems that nobody wants to do the attacks | 15:54 |
| phantomcircuit | bramm, iirc you can abuse connection timeout issues to rapidly cycle node ids | 15:55 |
| phantomcircuit | you probably know more about it than me though :P | 15:55 |
| bramm | phantomcircuit, We tied them to IP address in the BitTorrent DHT | 15:55 |
| phantomcircuit | ah ok then | 15:55 |
| phantomcircuit | yeah rapidly cycling node ids was an issue in gnutella | 15:55 |
| bramm | There were attacks going on before that, but they mostly seemed to be collecting info and weren't super sophisticated | 15:56 |
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| bramm | I think a very sophisticated attacker could really mess things up with a botnet of around 100,000 IPs. That would be a very sophisticated attack though, and that isn't a terribly small botnet either. | 15:58 |
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| sipa | we have had bitcoin mining botnets of that size... | 15:59 |
| phantomcircuit | bramm, if you just need unique ips 100k is tiny | 15:59 |
| sipa | (a loong time ago) | 15:59 |
| midnightmagic | DHT has been endlessly suggested as a replacement for the *seeding* mechanism, which used to be IRC /whois discovery, now DNS seeders. Or they would suggest using a DHT for block storage. Or suggest a DHT for virtually every other aspect of the p2p protocol. Mostly for peer discovery because they erroneously presume properties about a DHT which aren't valid in bitcoin. | 15:59 |
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| phantomcircuit | last year someone broke into ~3m routers | 15:59 |
| phantomcircuit | and proceeded to basically scan the entire internet using them | 15:59 |
| bramm | phantomcircuit, That was a very sophisticated attacker | 16:00 |
| phantomcircuit | bramm, it really wasnt | 16:00 |
| bramm | phantomcircuit, You might be giving a bit much credit to unsophisticated attackers :-) | 16:01 |
| phantomcircuit | it was just someone who was bored and not afraid of jail | 16:01 |
| midnightmagic | The joke has grown out of the uncountable repetition of DHT suggestion, and eventually we started teasing each other by suggesting dht for everything. | 16:01 |
| phantomcircuit | afaict they just abused a published exploit in tp link routers that basically was just default snmp permissions being set wrong | 16:02 |
| bramm | A fair amount of why the internet as a whole keeps working is that people who are capable of building and running botnets tend to be disinterested in it | 16:02 |
| phantomcircuit | the scanning the internet bit was maybe sophisticated | 16:02 |
| phantomcircuit | the breaking in? not so much | 16:02 |
| midnightmagic | i don't recall anybody seriously suggesting a dht even just for block propagation | 16:03 |
| bramm | It might make sense to use a DHT-like structure for bit coin peers selecting who they talk to, to keep latencies down | 16:03 |
| sipa | optimizing for latency makes sense, but isn't a 100% win either | 16:04 |
| midnightmagic | bramm: that would likely fail the connectivity benefits of a randomized peer selection | 16:04 |
| sipa | if you have a strong tendency of the network to connect to peers with low latency, you may get clustering, which may make separating the network easier | 16:04 |
| bramm | midnightmagic, It can do better than random actually, but also requires a fair number of connections | 16:05 |
| phantomcircuit | really what we need is a better than random peer selection algorithm and then to make wallet transaction broadcasts more selective in who they talk with | 16:06 |
| bramm | phantomcircuit, The vast majority of script kiddies are literally incapable of writing a line of code. It's true though that for something like DDOSing BitTorrent or Bitcoin it's plausible that someone might have an actual business model behind it, at which point getting the resources together to do such attacks would be easy | 16:06 |
| midnightmagic | bramm: The benefit of a strong, unpredictable connectivity graph are more important than latency | 16:06 |
| sipa | well, latency matters for scaling | 16:06 |
| phantomcircuit | bramm, uh ok maybe your definition of sophisticated is different then mine | 16:06 |
| sipa | yeah, i don't think anyone here was too worried about script kiddies | 16:07 |
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| bramm | Well if we're actually on the subject of peer selection in bit coin, it's probably more analogous to peer selection in BitTorrent, which we also do using IPs. Basically for every pair of nodes we hash together the IPs of the endpoints to determine a 'score' for that connection, and you accept a new incoming connection if it has a higher score than the lowest one you currently have | 16:08 |
| bramm | I just turned off spelling 'correction', sorry about that. | 16:09 |
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| midnightmagic | initial peer discovery was more the issue, as people really had a problem with the IRC channel on lfnet that we used to use, and then had a problem with the centralized DNS seeders we use now. Once we have good connectivity, peer discovery is easier because the network chats about peers all by itself. The joke was that the initial seeds are all equivalently centralized. | 16:12 |
| phantomcircuit | bramm, peer selection for the p2p protocol is actually more similar to relay selection in tor | 16:12 |
| phantomcircuit | which they haven't gotten right either :/ | 16:13 |
| bramm | I suppose peer selection it bit coin has two separate goals: anonymity and connectivity. Unfortunately these are in direct conflict :-P | 16:24 |
| sipa | if you're not running a wallet, there is little privacy to lose or gain | 16:25 |
| sipa | as a miner perhaps you don't want to be attackable, and being unknown helps | 16:25 |
| sipa | also, there is connectivity and latency | 16:25 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, yeah i was thinking there should be guard nodes which are long lived that receive wallet transaction broadcasts | 16:26 |
| sipa | which are also in conflict with eachother | 16:26 |
| phantomcircuit | and another group of nodes which are cycled on staggered schedules | 16:26 |
| sipa | latency matters, because it correlates directly with block propagation speed | 16:26 |
| bramm | For latency purposes it makes sense to keep a certain number of slots for lowest ping time peers and the rest for random | 16:28 |
| bramm | And when you're sending stuff out first send to a random peer and then to your lowest latency peers | 16:28 |
| phantomcircuit | bramm, you basically never want to send wallet txs to low latency peers actually | 16:29 |
| phantomcircuit | not without significant forethought | 16:30 |
| midnightmagic | i thought block chain consensus is still convergent up to absurd maximums and out past the moon | 16:30 |
| phantomcircuit | midnightmagic, convergent yes, but with stupid high latency links you might end up with lots of tiny reorgs | 16:30 |
| midnightmagic | meh | 16:30 |
| bramm | So is there anything other than signatures, locktime, and preimages which a coin can be contingent on? | 16:31 |
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| dgenr8 | bramm: the coin's script can define intricate requirements for spending it | 16:33 |
| Eliel_ | it's possible to require the spending transaction to provide data that hashes to a specific hash. | 16:33 |
| lechuga_ | they're more contingent on script execution result than a signature. there is no requirement for there to be an actual ecdsa signature to claim an output | 16:33 |
| lechuga_ | unless specified by the output's script | 16:34 |
| Eliel_ | but yes, it's scriptable so, a lot of things are possible | 16:34 |
| midnightmagic | who was it who appeared to do some actual calculations for blockchain convergence.. amiller I think? or andytoshi? | 16:34 |
| dgenr8 | bramm: have you looked at the bitcoin "payment channel" work? | 16:34 |
| bramm | dgenr8, no, got a link? | 16:34 |
| dgenr8 | bramm: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=244656.0 | 16:34 |
| sipa | midnightmagic: convergence isn't enough; if there's a 40% forking rate, you're giving a 40% advantage to a collusion attacker | 16:34 |
| bramm | Presumably the sidechains stuff adds all kinds of new possible contingencies | 16:34 |
| amiller | midnightmagic, i never computed anything | 16:35 |
| lechuga_ | ever? | 16:35 |
| sipa | 42. | 16:35 |
| lechuga_ | lol | 16:35 |
| sipa | amiller did come with the auto-adjusting block rate, to basically aim for (iirc) 50% forking rate | 16:36 |
| midnightmagic | amiller: was it not you who at one point determined convergence area from speed-of-light from surface of the earth up to some radius past the moon? | 16:36 |
| bramm | What is this 'forking rate'? | 16:36 |
| amiller | rate of stale blocks | 16:36 |
| sipa | bramm: how many mined blocks don't end up in the active best chain | 16:36 |
| sipa | because the finder of the following block hasn't seen the previous one yet | 16:37 |
| bramm | My best guess about forking rate is that it's about 5 seconds for things to get distributed and about 10 minutes for things to happen so the fork rate should be around 5 / 600 or just under 1% | 16:38 |
| sipa | yup | 16:38 |
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| sipa | as long as the ratio is large between them, that rule holds pretty well | 16:39 |
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| bramm | I did some math once to figure out the 'optimal' average length of time between blocks and got the diameter of the network times e, with things getting really bad below that because of fork rate and not much worse above it, so that would imply that to make transactions go through as quickly as possible the average time between blocks should be around 30 seconds | 16:39 |
| sipa | if it's smaller you need to take the actual interblock interval distribution into account | 16:39 |
| sipa | but as i said: just convergence isn't enough | 16:39 |
| sipa | because it assumes no attackers | 16:40 |
| bramm | I think 10 minutes between blocks is a bit excessive | 16:40 |
| sipa | maybe it could have been 1-2 minutes | 16:40 |
| bramm | 2 minutes is already quite conservative | 16:40 |
| phantomcircuit | except that would give larger miners an advantage | 16:41 |
| sipa | but a collusion attacker (one which knows he has a majority of the hash rate or close to it) only mines on top of blocks he produces himself | 16:41 |
| bramm | Not that 10 minutes is particularly problematic | 16:41 |
| sipa | and therefore doesn't suffer from the forking rate that is the result of the distance/propagation delay between miners | 16:41 |
| bramm | Right, large miners can keep their own forks and force a reorg with some reliability | 16:41 |
| sipa | right now i think there is like 1-2%? | 16:41 |
| bramm | The lack of credit for partials is a bit of a problem here | 16:42 |
| sipa | that pretty much means that with 1 minute blocks and everything else equal, we'd likely have 10% forks, which may already be significant | 16:42 |
| sipa | credit for partials? | 16:43 |
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| andytoshi | midnightmagic: i didn't do those calculations either | 16:46 |
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| midnightmagic | :-/ was it just an eyeballing/estimate based on 10 minutes of speed-of-light from the surface of the earth then? | 16:48 |
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| midnightmagic | gmaxwell stop making yourself useful and stand in as my offloaded memory | 16:50 |
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| midnightmagic | .. could've sworn someone said they worked it out. it was near the time amiller was looking for a research project but perhaps that was just a proximal event | 16:52 |
| bramm | sipa, If partials were baked into the protocol then a miner couldn't use their own forks because they'd lose due to not having partials | 16:52 |
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| sipa | what are partials? | 16:52 |
| bramm | or some variant thereof, there are a few different ways it could be set up with different tradeoffs | 16:52 |
| bramm | A partial is something you get when you were trying to mine which doesn't make a new block but gets you a mining reward | 16:52 |
| sipa | ah, right | 16:53 |
| bramm | And also reinforces the validity of whatever you were mining off of | 16:53 |
| sipa | p2pool shares, bacially | 16:53 |
| dgenr8 | bramm: see asic-faq question 5 | 16:53 |
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| bramm | dgenr8, Do you mean proofs of stake or something else? | 16:53 |
| amiller | "giving credit for partials" is basically my current best idea for how to make nonoutsourceable puzzles with integrated p2pool so you don't need a pool | 16:54 |
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| dgenr8 | no credit for partials = a "progress-free" PoW | 16:54 |
| amiller | not really | 16:54 |
| bramm | amiller, I'm not sure what you mean by 'nonoutsourceable' but I think I agree with you | 16:54 |
| amiller | bramm: see http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable.pdf | 16:55 |
| bramm | Okay, that goes on my list of stuff to read | 16:55 |
| bramm | This list is rather long, my goal for today was to get through atomic transactions, which I mostly have a handle on and need to read a little more closely later | 16:56 |
| bramm | I sometimes get pulled away by a meatspace DOS attack. It typically starts with DADDY I'M HUNGRY | 16:57 |
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| nsh | and then your child summons a million tiny zombies? | 16:59 |
| nsh | because that is probably not considered normal development behaviour before adolescence at least | 17:00 |
| nsh | oh, my bad, you didn't actually say DDoS | 17:00 |
| * nsh returns to cave | 17:00 | |
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| andytoshi | midnightmagic: my guess is maaku | 17:02 |
| andytoshi | it's also possible that gmaxwell or i did it, i'm sure i remember talking about it | 17:02 |
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| super3 | amiller: you around? | 17:55 |
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| bramm | This 'nonoutsourceable' concept is interesting. It's trying to make it so that any outsourcing requires a lot of trust. The opposite side is to reduce the incentive for outsourceing | 18:01 |
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| instagibbs_ | phantomcircuit: shorter block times, provided the rise in stale rates is low, actually could end up helping smaller pools due to decreased variance | 18:12 |
| instagibbs_ | trying to get the details published but here are slides from a talk by Dave Hudson. Check out slides 63+: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nVGCU6MDdLad8yOAmNWDbCUqXerq5Ss1B5J7AcLmZ1w/edit#slide=id.p13 | 18:16 |
| instagibbs_ | 66 particularly | 18:17 |
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| phantomcircuit | instagibbs_, that's a pretty large conditional | 18:22 |
| instagibbs_ | *shrug* mining connections I'm guessing have greatly decreased latency since the olden days. Something to think about at least. There will always be a tradeoff. | 18:23 |
| phantomcircuit | and the effect is actually very small | 18:23 |
| instagibbs_ | it's the marginal benefits between large/small pools that's in question. Squeezing the benefits down to a much smaller fraction of total hashing power could have benefits. I'll bug the author again for the writeup. | 18:27 |
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| bramm | What are the main practical incentives for mining pools? | 18:29 |
| phantomcircuit | bramm, reduced variability in reward | 18:30 |
| phantomcircuit | mining by yourself is unlikely to ever return a reward until you approach significant mining size | 18:30 |
| instagibbs_ | that, and with "hosted mining" you don't actually have to run anything | 18:30 |
| instagibbs_ | or run a full node... | 18:31 |
| instagibbs_ | but casting those aside, what phantomcircuit said | 18:31 |
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| amiller | super3, hi | 18:36 |
| super3 | how have you been? | 18:37 |
| amiller | bramm, yeah so 'nonoutsourceable' raises the distrust *against* pooling, having p2pool shares "integrated" into the official rules reduces the incentive *for* pooling... | 18:38 |
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| amiller | the story for anti-hosted-mining is a lot sketchier :/ | 18:38 |
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| amiller | busting up pools without also busting up hosted mining seems like a net negative, pools seem lesser of two evils | 18:39 |
| amiller | super3, good! thanks, what you up to? | 18:39 |
| super3 | seeing how many hard drives it takes to get to the moon | 18:39 |
| bramm | What do you mean by 'hosted mining', and what's the problem with it? | 18:40 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramm, you pay me money, i buy hw and runt he hw for you | 18:40 |
| amiller | hosted mining is roughly when someone pays a large corporation to run some mining rig in a data center somewhere | 18:41 |
| phantomcircuit | effectively i control which transaction your money pays to mine | 18:41 |
| amiller | due to economies of scale, orgs like this can offer better deals the more consolidated they are | 18:41 |
| bramm | I don't see how hosted mining is a problem, or avoidable. Practically everything is hosted services these days. | 18:41 |
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| amiller | hosted mining is a consolidation of power | 18:41 |
| super3 | i mean my main thing about nonoutsourceable is that it would be impossible to integrate into bitcoin | 18:42 |
| bramm | Oh, yeah, economies of scale. Probably the best bet for fixing that is to use resources people already have sitting around not being very well utilized | 18:42 |
| amiller | someone could go blackmail the administrator of that organization | 18:42 |
| bramm | Like memory. Cuckoo might help. | 18:42 |
| phantomcircuit | amiller, otoh individuals who are bad at calculating costs might not realize what the economies of scale really are | 18:42 |
| amiller | bramm so just like for pooling, there are two sides to a solution, a) create a barrier/disincentive by sowing the seeds of 'distrust', and b) remove the incentive | 18:42 |
| phantomcircuit | (this has been an issue selling people contracts recently) | 18:42 |
| amiller | cuckoo removes the incentive by reducing the benefits of consolidation | 18:42 |
| amiller | (maybe!) | 18:42 |
| amiller | nonoutsourceable puzzle can also in some fantasy world or something create enough distrust that people wouldn't be as happy with hosted mining providers | 18:43 |
| phantomcircuit | amiller, kind of doubt it | 18:43 |
| phantomcircuit | virtually nobody asks for proof of anything | 18:43 |
| amiller | phantomcircuit, yeah, well, you and apparently everyone else, i haven't had an easy time getting any traction for this | 18:44 |
| phantomcircuit | nearly everybody just calculates expected returns and compares with actual return | 18:44 |
| amiller | the pessimistic view is that everyone is already totally trusting of big organizations | 18:44 |
| amiller | phantomcircuit, yes okay, so, there is an implicit assumption there about how things *already* work, and i propose to change that. | 18:44 |
| amiller | right now, there is no super jackpot | 18:44 |
| instagibbs_ | I think a lot of possible hobbyist miners don't do it because you have to lay down $2K+ to even pray for even | 18:44 |
| amiller | you get the 25 btc every 10 minutes, that's the only lotto game there is | 18:44 |
| rusty | amiller: or they are happy with the exposure being limited to the time it takes them to xfer out their profits? | 18:45 |
| super3 | not because of technical reasons, but existing miners will just reject it | 18:45 |
| amiller | suppose you got 20 btc every 10 minutes most of the time, but *sometimes* you win a 10000 btc jackpot | 18:45 |
| instagibbs_ | amiller you have a dumping ground for lotto-style mining thoughts? or are they just rattling around | 18:46 |
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| rusty | amiller: ah, so you're trying to use that to change the trust dynamics. Interesting idea... | 18:46 |
| amiller | instagibbs, yeah, sorry, your buffer here is the dumping ground ;/ i have a forum post here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=305781.0 but it's kind of sketchy | 18:47 |
| phantomcircuit | amiller, oh right | 18:47 |
| phantomcircuit | yeah that might change things | 18:47 |
| amiller | basically for this to work i need to assume some kind of unusual decision theory things and even if i'm right i don't know yet how to do the science and give some kind of evidence for it | 18:47 |
| instagibbs_ | im interested because I'm quite doubtful of long-term PoW if people are actually mining at cost | 18:51 |
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| amiller | if the economics of this are anything like state lottos, then people will be mining at less -than-cost | 18:53 |
| instagibbs_ | *assuming you mean -EV* | 18:54 |
| amiller | yes | 18:54 |
| bramm | When are rewards going to drop by half again? | 18:54 |
| instagibbs_ | I read that post a long time ago | 18:54 |
| instagibbs_ | 2016ish | 18:54 |
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| bramm | I wish it was sooner. It will be interesting to see what happens on the next drop | 18:56 |
| kanzure | block 420000 | 18:57 |
| kanzure | best to measure time by number of blocks rather than 2016 | 18:57 |
| bramm | What block number is it on now? | 18:58 |
| bramm | I wonder how many miners are going to wonder why their revenues suddenly dropped by half | 18:58 |
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| kanzure | current blockheight is approximately 332650 depending on who you are | 18:59 |
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| kanzure | or rather, depending on which nodes you know | 18:59 |
| kanzure | (because 332651 is out there) | 18:59 |
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| bramm | So that's early 2016 probably | 19:16 |
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| phantomcircuit | amiller, its not enough of a lottery for that really | 19:18 |
| amiller | not now it isn't :/ | 19:19 |
| bramm | I have a question about the atomic transactions protocol | 19:19 |
| amiller | bramm, the tiernolan one? | 19:20 |
| bramm | amiller, yes that one | 19:20 |
| amiller | i know that one, i want to help! | 19:20 |
| bramm | Why have the counterparty sign a return transaction? Why not just make it so that the coin can be unlocked with a combination of A's signature and a timelock of 24 hours? | 19:20 |
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| amiller | you can't make a "coin" (an unspent transaction output) unlockable | 19:26 |
| amiller | that limitation is just sort of a quirk of bitcoin script, there's a proposed opcode OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY that would let you do that | 19:27 |
| bramm | Ah, that's what I suspected | 19:28 |
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| amiller | s/unlockable/unlockable-after-some-time | 19:28 |
| bramm | So transactions can be time-locked but coins can't? | 19:31 |
| bramm | I hope I'm not irritating everybody by saying 'coin' instead of 'unspent output'. It's just shorter. | 19:31 |
| lechuga_ | 'utxo' | 19:32 |
| bramm | Okay I can use that. Is utxo short for something? | 19:33 |
| lechuga_ | unspent transaction output | 19:33 |
| tromp_ | unspent transaction output | 19:33 |
| tromp_ | just as short as coin! | 19:33 |
| lechuga_ | doubt any1 really annoyed by 'coin' tho | 19:34 |
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| lechuga_ | re: OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY, see also: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0065.mediawiki | 19:37 |
| amiller | i like calling those coins too, but it confuses people who don't know it :/ "utxo" either you know it or it's obviously incomprehensible | 19:37 |
| amiller | bramm, exactly, a transaction can be timelocked but a utxo can't | 19:38 |
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| bramm | tromp_, I have a question about cuckoo | 19:56 |
| op_null | bramm: the problem with "coin" really is that it gives people the idea that they are somehow 1BTC units. at least with utxo you can't have people forming preconceived notions about their function. | 19:56 |
| tromp_ | yes, bramm? | 19:57 |
| bramm | tromp_, Does it need something as strong as siphash? Could it use something weaker like, say, a single round of AES? | 19:58 |
| bramm | Or is a single round of AES about the same as siphash? | 19:58 |
| tromp_ | i tried with reduced rounds, even down to siphash11, and couldn't see any effect on cycle length distribution | 19:58 |
| bramm | What is siphash11? | 19:58 |
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| tromp_ | normal siphash is siphash 24, 2 rounds of one kind and 4 rounds of another kind | 19:59 |
| tromp_ | for extra mixing power, some applications use siphash-4-8 | 20:01 |
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| tromp_ | so cuckoo can use a weaker siphash than siphash-2-4, but i'd feel better about siphash-1-2 than a single round of AES | 20:02 |
| bramm | Are siphash-1-2 and AES about the same amount of CPU? Why 1-2 specifically? | 20:03 |
| tromp_ | just sticking with the ratio siphash-n-2n | 20:03 |
| tromp_ | doing half the work of siphash-2-4 | 20:03 |
| tromp_ | i don't know offhand how 1round AES compares with siphash-1-2 | 20:04 |
| tromp_ | but siphsah is designed for hash tables, which is really how it's used in cuckoo cycle | 20:06 |
| bramm | I'd be curious to hear DJB's thoughts on reduced round siphash, in particular for that use | 20:06 |
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| tromp_ | i asked him by email | 20:07 |
| tromp_ | it bounced:( | 20:08 |
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| bramm | huh, what was the reason for the bounce? | 20:08 |
| tromp_ | <djb@cr.yp.to>: | 20:09 |
| tromp_ | I have not received confirmation that this message is not bulk mail. | 20:09 |
| tromp_ | I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long. | 20:09 |
| bramm | Huh, I've successfully corresponded with him before. Will try later. | 20:09 |
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| tromp_ | AES is unnecessarily wide | 20:11 |
| tromp_ | i know someone who was trying to exploit the limited width of siphash to compute 4 of them in parallel with AVX | 20:12 |
| tromp_ | that might speed up cuckoo a bit | 20:13 |
| bramm | cuckoo should be mostly waiting for memory | 20:13 |
| bramm | Hence the wanting to speed up the hashing. If it was mostly waiting for CPU then there wouldn't be much point in speeding up the CPU | 20:14 |
| tromp_ | yes, but once a thread is waiting for memory, you need another thread to compute the next siphash | 20:14 |
| tromp_ | the memory subsystem can handle many pending memory accesses | 20:14 |
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| tromp_ | for cuckoo, hyperthreading beyond a factor of 2 (like on some sparc cpus) could be very beneficial | 20:15 |
| bramm | Presumably custom hardware should be able to do that so the more that COTS hardware can do it the better | 20:17 |
| tromp_ | i'd love to try cuckoo on an intel xeon phi | 20:19 |
| tromp_ | my former academic institution has one, but it invariably crashes on cuckoo:( | 20:19 |
| tromp_ | gotta run; talk to you later... | 20:21 |
| bramm | laters | 20:21 |
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| gmaxwell | potenitally fun thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=881304.0 | 22:59 |
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| op_null | some new snake oil, too. kryptohash, our proof of work is more secure than bitcoins because our hash is 320 bit not 256 bit! maybe that'll be the new race. multi megabit PoW hashes. | 23:17 |
| phantomcircuit | op_null, you're gonna ruin my plan! | 23:18 |
| gmaxwell | and then does it use sha256 for everything except the pow, including a preprocessing step before the pow? | 23:21 |
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| op_null | probably, they always seem to | 23:25 |
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| op_null | "Also puzzled you didn't go for 512bit hash or maybe even higher? Lock out current gen ASIC, and some low end graphics adapters." | 23:30 |
| Luke-Jr | lol | 23:35 |
| Luke-Jr | gmaxwell: apparently Maxcoin uses Keccak for even the base58check | 23:35 |
| Luke-Jr | Region code: Kryptohash protocol includes a Region code field. Each Region consists in it's own separate blockchain, RPC/P2P port numbers and hopefully a different Market price. As of December 2014, only Region #0 exists. Other regions might be released in the future. <-- lolwut | 23:37 |
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| op_null | I can't work out why anybody thinkgs that a good idea. | 23:38 |
| gmaxwell | Luke-Jr: well if you can reduce the number of hash functions you have that might be good. | 23:40 |
| Luke-Jr | gmaxwell: but X11-X15! | 23:41 |
| paveljanik | op_null: more blockchains, more pump&dump, more money... as usual | 23:41 |
| op_null | super secure hashing! | 23:41 |
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| sl01 | has anyone brainstormed out the effects of bitcoin mining being "perfect money laundering" and if that means eventually mining will always be done at a "huge" loss because... money laundering? | 23:57 |
| phantomcircuit | sl01, it's not because you have to purchase power | 23:57 |
| sl01 | good pt, i guess that nullifies the whole thing? | 23:58 |
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| sl01 | does hosted mining require kyc? | 23:59 |
| sl01 | or mining contracts | 23:59 |
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