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| andytoshi | o.O http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/04/boffins_we_factored_143_no_you_factored_56153/ original paper http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.6758 | 08:40 |
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| andytoshi | ah, here we go: in the arxiv paper they exploit the fact that the factors differ at only two bits, which ofc will be very unlikely for any non-cherry-picked numbers | 08:44 |
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| tdlfbx | Yep | 08:46 |
| andytoshi | the math here is super straightforward, it is almost all elementary school arithmetic (well, in base 2), so it's worthwhile to read the paper | 08:47 |
| tacotime | might be a good target for cherry picking if you plan to have a quantum computer before everyone else. | 08:47 |
| andytoshi | a fun candidate for the underhanded crypto contest: try to generate an RSA modulus whose "random factors" differ in very few bits | 08:48 |
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| tdlfbx | Hmmm...bitcoin codes that e.g. steal funds would be a fun candidate for that contest... | 08:54 |
| tdlfbx | Darn, submissions closed 2 days ago. | 08:55 |
| nsh | andytoshi, i would be slow to scoff, progress is progress :) | 08:58 |
| nsh | (not suggesting anyone's scoffing, but there's some temptation) | 08:58 |
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| andytoshi | nsh: there is a temptation, after all with assumption of such small bit-distances you can solve these classically very quickly :) | 09:00 |
| nsh | well, right | 09:00 |
| andytoshi | they point out you can brute-force it in 2^16 time. but agreed, progress is progress, this is really neat | 09:00 |
| * nsh nods | 09:00 | |
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| gmaxwell | andytoshi: that popular press article is ... uhh. | 09:19 |
| hearn | any headline with "boffins" in it gets immediate credibility points with me | 09:21 |
| helo | lol | 09:21 |
| helo | i hate that word so much | 09:21 |
| hearn | you know what i hate? multi-dimensional state machines with a GUI and lots of things happening in parallel. | 09:21 |
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| gmaxwell | sipa: After we get through the 0.10 RC stuff, if you'd like to rebase the schnorr I can start seriously reviewing it. | 09:56 |
| sipa | ack | 09:56 |
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| gmaxwell | I wonder if we should implement the threshold ecdsa ... it needs a trusted dealer, so I lost interest in it. ... but indeed it's not worthless. | 09:59 |
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| hearn | it'll probably end up being used for specialised tasks that aren't obvious to us at the moment | 10:05 |
| hearn | they've implemented it for bitcoinj and told me they plan to open source the code | 10:06 |
| hearn | so we could just wait and see if anyone does something interesting with it, and then do a native version in libsecp256k1 later | 10:06 |
| amiller | gmaxwell, have you followed steven foldfeders progress on it at all | 10:07 |
| amiller | goldfeder* | 10:07 |
| andytoshi | gmaxwell: re the popular press article, yeah, wtf, i posted it before i read the paper and was expecting the paper to be way more opaque and impressive | 10:08 |
| andytoshi | had they not said "the math is beyond us" i'd have read it first :/ | 10:09 |
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| amiller | is there a place that public discussion about sidechains happens, besides here? | 10:42 |
| amiller | anyway, i have a sidechains question i can see resolved in one of two ways | 10:42 |
| amiller | the question is, what is the recommended behavior on the sidechain in the unfortunate event that there's a revision attack on the sidechain that effectively steals some money from its bitcoin reserve | 10:43 |
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| amiller | for example, suppose this is a 1:1 peg chain, and at the moment there are 100 sidecoins and 100 bitcoins in its reserve -- now an attacker somehow exfiltrates (just) 1 of the bitcoin reserves so there are 99 btc in reserve and 100 sidechain coins outstanding | 10:44 |
| amiller | there are two easy policies i can imagine, A) is that sidechains are still redeemed for bitcoins from the reserve at 1:1 rate, except that if 99 of them are exchanged this way, there's someone left at the end who can't exchange his and is stuck with a sidecoin he can't redeem for btc | 10:45 |
| amiller | B) is that the sidechain keeps track of its reserve funds, accounting for not just the 'valid-in-main-fork' withdrawal transactions, but also accounting for the bitcoin chain's view of history which may have processed double spends, and diminishes proportionally | 10:46 |
| tromp_ | the KISS principle says A | 10:47 |
| amiller | now as long as there are no further double spends, there are 99 bitcoins in reserve and 100 sidecoins and you can exchange a sidecoin for 99 bitcents | 10:47 |
| amiller | that's subjective these are both pretty simple | 10:47 |
| amiller | let me discharge a few caveats i'm ancitipcaintg quickly before this conversation goes off the rails | 10:47 |
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| amiller | - i'm aware that an attacker doesn't just hve to do a *double spend* but could probably take all 100 bitcoin reserves at once, maybe there are ways around that, let me just assume that that kind of attack is somehow limited and it only happens for 1 coin | 10:48 |
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| amiller | maybe that was the only caveat i can't think of anything else | 10:50 |
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| amiller | the main simplicity advantage of option A is that the sidechain doesn't seem even to need to monitor the bitcoin fund account for this purpose | 10:52 |
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| andytoshi | amiller: the concern there is it'd cause a "bank run", it is not a dramatic increase in complexity to do (B) | 11:02 |
| andytoshi | amiller: basically once we have the primitives in place to do things like reorg proofs (which are needed for the peg anyway) it is easy to provide the sidechain with a "proof of theft" | 11:03 |
| amiller | yeah that makes sense | 11:05 |
| kanzure | so some proof-of-theft has to invalidate chains of transactions on the sidechain? | 11:05 |
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| amiller | kanzure, if it's the same B) i'm talking about, it wouldn't invalidate anything | 11:05 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: no, it would only change the peg exchange rate | 11:05 |
| amiller | it would simply acknowledge that bitcoin thinks there are now 99 coins, yet there are 100 sidecoins | 11:05 |
| amiller | therefore the new exchange rate is 0.99:1 | 11:05 |
| amiller | this ruleset is still 1:1 *as long as there are no huge history revisions* (or false spv proofs that go un-challenged) | 11:06 |
| andytoshi | yup. fwiw there's a ton of design space for limiting this sort of attack (e.g. throttling the peg, increasing the conf times for large transfers, etc) | 11:07 |
| amiller | yup, i meant to allude to those with my caveat :) | 11:08 |
| andytoshi | yes, i caught that, thx for doing so :) | 11:08 |
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| andytoshi | so given the caveat (A) might not be as drastic ... after all, there is always some proportion of "lost coins" | 11:09 |
| andytoshi | and if the theft can be throttled to always be less than that, and somehow everyone believes this, maybe there is no bank run | 11:10 |
| * zooko reads with interest | 11:12 | |
| amiller | perhaps it can be a little-bit-of-bank-run and a little-bit-of-dillution | 11:13 |
| andytoshi | mm, gmaxwell had an idea along those lines of temporarily charging withdrawal fees so the "bank runners" end up making up the theft | 11:14 |
| andytoshi | i.e. you are punished for being a panicked pete | 11:14 |
| andytoshi | which would discourage an avalanche effect | 11:15 |
| amiller | that's good | 11:15 |
| gmaxwell | This is actually covered in the paper, I thought. Or am I in draft-space-zone. | 11:16 |
| andytoshi | oh, it is indeed | 11:17 |
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| amiller | hrm, yeah you're right, section 4.2 in the paper covers roughly all of these | 11:22 |
| amiller | i don't know why i didn't remember that, sorry! | 11:22 |
| kanzure | huh, why don't non-cryptocurrency-related-bank-runs do withdrawal fees during bank runs? | 11:22 |
| kanzure | *do increased withdrawal fees | 11:22 |
| kanzure | panic penalties, i mean | 11:22 |
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| andytoshi | might be illegal | 11:22 |
| kanzure | haha | 11:22 |
| gmaxwell | thanks for finding the section number; didn't have the document on this system and on a slow link | 11:22 |
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| bramm | Hey everybody | 11:40 |
| amiller | hi bramm | 11:40 |
| bramm | amiller! Just the person I have questions for | 11:40 |
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| bramm | amiller, I'm reading through your nonoutsorceable paper and am having trouble figuring out figure 2 (I have trouble with math-style notation) | 11:41 |
| amiller | okay, i can probably hash it out in words here... | 11:42 |
| bramm | There's something about a merkle tree. What do you put into the leaves of the merkle tree? | 11:42 |
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| amiller | the leaves of the merkle tree just contain random strings | 11:42 |
| amiller | more accurately, the hash of a random string | 11:43 |
| bramm | Okay, and then you come up with some nonce which picks some number of leaves and then you do... something with them | 11:44 |
| amiller | right the nonce picks some number of leaves, and you *hash them all up* | 11:44 |
| amiller | then you check to see if you win | 11:44 |
| amiller | slightly more complicated than that - you hash up all the leaves/branches that get picked | 11:44 |
| bramm | Okay that I follow, but how is this any different from an ordinary proof of work? Where does the nonoutsourceability come in? | 11:45 |
| amiller | the main difference is that the *destination* of the reward is not committed to when you are doing the work, but instead is bound *after* you find a solution | 11:46 |
| bramm | That I really don't follow | 11:47 |
| amiller | in bitcoin you commit to a coinbase transaction before mining, each attempt only has a chance of winning a block that pays out to that transaction | 11:47 |
| bramm | right | 11:47 |
| amiller | this is why pools work, you can show that you're doing work that would pay out to the pool operator | 11:47 |
| bramm | right | 11:47 |
| amiller | (or, in p2pool, to the stack of other peers) | 11:48 |
| amiller | okay so here, ... you don't do that | 11:48 |
| bramm | I'm not following what your construction does. What you're saying sounds impossible to me. | 11:48 |
| amiller | basically the structure of this puzzle is meant to guarantee that if you are doing the mining work, you have the private key | 11:48 |
| amiller | when you are doing work for a pool, you don't have the pool operators private key | 11:48 |
| amiller | you commit to paying out to a public key that *you* don't have the correpsonding key for, and that works fine | 11:48 |
| amiller | here, you commit to the root of a merkle tree which acts as a finite-use-signature scheme, | 11:49 |
| amiller | and to actually do the mining work you have to know (a significant portion of) the private key | 11:49 |
| bramm | Okay, I'm familiar with merkle trees as signature schemes | 11:50 |
| bramm | How is the destination selected/revealed at the end? | 11:50 |
| amiller | it's selected by the miner who finds the solution, and it's shown to the world by creating a signed message with that merkle-tree-key | 11:51 |
| bramm | So you're using the merkle tree twice, once to verify that your mining was successful, and once to reveal/sign the destination? | 11:53 |
| bramm | What's wrong with using a more common signature scheme, where you hash a public key to see if your mining attempt was successful, and then sign it something with it? | 11:54 |
| amiller | if you hash a public key, you might not know the corresponding private key | 11:54 |
| bramm | Oh right, a pool might send you then private key | 11:55 |
| amiller | that means you can do some work while provably waiving your ability to steer the reward at the end | 11:55 |
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| bramm | I'm trying to think how this would interact with something like cuckoo | 11:58 |
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| amiller | so sirer and eyal came up with this two-phase thing | 11:58 |
| amiller | that combines an ordinary scratch-off puzzle with a nonoutsourceable puzzle | 11:59 |
| amiller | and is sort of best of both | 11:59 |
| bramm | Got a link? | 11:59 |
| amiller | http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/18/how-to-disincentivize-large-bitcoin-mining-pools/ | 11:59 |
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| amiller | the idea is that you just have two phases | 11:59 |
| amiller | pick a nonce | 11:59 |
| amiller | use the nonce to pick some leaves in this merkle tree as the first phase | 11:59 |
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| amiller | when you compute the hash, you don't immediately check to see if it's below a threshold, you use it as a nonce for a second phase | 12:00 |
| amiller | e.g., as the macrononce for cuckoo cycle | 12:00 |
| bramm | Couldn't the first phase be done by the pool and then the second phase farmed out to pool members? | 12:01 |
| amiller | yes, but you have to do this roughly for *each attempt* | 12:01 |
| amiller | so that would require a ton of bandwidth | 12:01 |
| bramm | hmmm | 12:01 |
| bramm | It would be nice to find something stronger than that | 12:02 |
| amiller | i tried to write it out clearly so that it doesn't seem like this alternative bad scheme that i'm *not* describing, which is where you *first* try to grind out the first phase | 12:02 |
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| amiller | and *then*, having first found a phase1 solution, try to grind out a phase2 solution..... its' not that | 12:02 |
| amiller | i don't think it's possible/necessary to find something stronger that, that's pretty goo | 12:02 |
| bramm | I'll need to at least think about how to maximize the amount of bandwidth which needs to be used there | 12:03 |
| amiller | okay so the way i described it is slightly simpler than what i described, and is *the maximized* setting | 12:04 |
| amiller | slightly simpler than what *they* described i mean | 12:04 |
| amiller | what they described there is a sort of difficulty balance parameter between phase 1 and phase 2 | 12:04 |
| amiller | that means, sometimes after having made half of an attempt, you can compare it against some weak threshold and figure out that that nonce definintely isn't a winner without having to do the phase 2 step | 12:05 |
| bramm | I don't see any reason to put work difficulty in phase 1 | 12:05 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: rebased the schnorr implementation already | 12:05 |
| amiller | bramm, the reason has to do with their motivation for this in the first place, | 12:06 |
| amiller | which is to.... actually i kind of agree i don't know why you'd ever want to do that | 12:06 |
| amiller | well okay the reason is | 12:06 |
| amiller | suppose that one cuckoo attempt is still a lot faster than doing this signature thing | 12:07 |
| bramm | ... which it isn't | 12:07 |
| amiller | then you're not really getting the benefit of cuckoo making ram dominate the costs | 12:07 |
| amiller | okay well | 12:07 |
| amiller | keep in mind their expressed motivation was to make existing miner asics compatible with the new scheme | 12:07 |
| amiller | so clearly making one hash attempt is a lot faster than anything else | 12:07 |
| amiller | *if* you buy that motivation, | 12:08 |
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| amiller | then the solution is to make the hash attempt the phase1 and the nonoutsourceable signature thing the phase2 | 12:08 |
| bramm | Changing the proofs of work in existing Bitcoin is in the list of Things Which Aren't Going To Happen | 12:08 |
| amiller | then to set this phase1 difficulty parameter so that you spend sufficient amount of your time doing the phase 1 work | 12:08 |
| amiller | bramm, yeah yeah yeah that's why we're in -wizards :) | 12:09 |
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| amiller | if i had to poll everyone's opinion about whether an idea was politically realizable or not i'd not have nearly as much fun doing research | 12:09 |
| bramm | Also, if you're relying primarily and bandwidth costs killing miners, then a regular public/private key pair will have the same effect | 12:10 |
| sipa | bramm: the purpose of this channel is pretty specifically not about Bitcoin itself | 12:10 |
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| amiller | bramm, maybe | 12:10 |
| kanzure | i suspect that a good implementation would have a chance of adoption | 12:10 |
| amiller | bramm, my first version of this just used arbitrary signatures like deterministic ecdsa or rsa | 12:10 |
| sipa | doesn't mean that nothing here might end up in Bitcoin, or can't be intended as a "maybe one day Bitcoin should adopt this", but it's more about research/development than about actual production changes now | 12:10 |
| amiller | bramm, but i wasn't able to prove anything because signatures don't generally guarantee that you can't make a defective private/public keypair that lets you do this kind of outsourcing thing somehow | 12:11 |
| bramm | What do you mean by 'defective'? | 12:12 |
| amiller | now that i use random oracles all my proofs work and no one really seems to feel excited enough to criticize it | 12:12 |
| amiller | with a correctly generated public/private keypair, a signature is a proof of knowledge of the key | 12:12 |
| amiller | however there is definition that guarantees that there is no alternate generation algorithm that gives you a private keypair that can only sign transactions that pay out to a pool | 12:13 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: see the threshold ecdsa paper, it's possible to make delegatable signing with trusted setup... | 12:13 |
| amiller | http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~stevenag/bitcoin_threshold_signatures.pdf this one i think you mean, for the self-containedness of the log transcript here | 12:14 |
| amiller | anyway that's not exactly practical for this... | 12:15 |
| amiller | i don't think there's any actual problem with using ordinary asymmetric crypto and having each scratch off attempt involve a signature | 12:16 |
| bramm | I have a wonderful horrible idea | 12:16 |
| amiller | on the other hand, the merkle tree one might be faster, and that makes it easier to tip the work balance towards cuckoo or whatever | 12:16 |
| amiller | which i think is good | 12:16 |
| bramm | A hash-based digital signature scheme involves selectively revealing some information based on a hash | 12:17 |
| amiller | also its post quantum | 12:17 |
| gmaxwell | bramm: we could call it... a lamport signature. | 12:17 |
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| bramm | cuckoo involves selectively revealing a selection of where some edges came from | 12:18 |
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| amiller | i guess you're suggesting intertwingling those two steps somehow... | 12:19 |
| bramm | How about if we make each of the leaves of our tree responsible for some of the edges of the cuckoo? | 12:19 |
| kanzure | for-pay remailers http://web.archive.org/web/20130513050640/http://finney.org/~hal/pay_remail.html | 12:20 |
| kanzure | cc andytoshi | 12:20 |
| kanzure | and bram i guess. but bram knows remailers. | 12:20 |
| amiller | bramm, it seems like it would be tedious to work out that there isn't any gaming here or something, but it seems like it would work.... what is the goal you're hoping to get out of this thouhg? | 12:21 |
| bramm | remailers unfortunately don't matter. People don't use email any more. | 12:21 |
| amiller | just fewer steps or something compared to doing one then the other/ | 12:21 |
| bramm | amiller, trying to make it so that the amount of bandwidth which is necessary for outsourcing is nuts | 12:21 |
| amiller | bandwidth is expensive and this requires a ton of it, i think you're doing a premature/unnecessary optimization | 12:22 |
| amiller | bramm, i have a bunch of calculations about how this kind of pow scheme affects bandwidth and costs in the permacoin paper http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/permacoin.pdf | 12:23 |
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| kanzure | why remailers 1 http://web.archive.org/web/20120216180743/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem1.html | 12:23 |
| kanzure | why remailers 2 http://web.archive.org/web/20130513043044/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem2.html | 12:23 |
| amiller | upshot: roughly at any parameter setting, the cost of bandwidth is through the roof even when you assume you're using like, industrialbulk peering rates | 12:23 |
| bramm | amiller, I don't think my suggestion of mixing has any real downside | 12:24 |
| amiller | bramm, okay fair enough | 12:24 |
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| kanzure | "detecting double spending" http://web.archive.org/web/20021106004752/http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash1.html | 12:25 |
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| amiller | anyway, one way or the other we seem to agree it's plausible to combine cuckoo and nonoutsourceable and thereby get a pow that's hopefully both anti-delegation and anti-asic... | 12:26 |
| bramm | Yeah the main problem is the size of the signatures | 12:26 |
| amiller | why? just because they eat into the blocksize? | 12:26 |
| bramm | Yeah | 12:27 |
| amiller | 40*32 bytes = >1k or so, i guess yeah | 12:27 |
| kanzure | does anyone have a backup of rpow.net? | 12:27 |
| amiller | (the 40 there comes from permacoin parameters which isn't necessarily a safe choice, could be worse) | 12:27 |
| amiller | smaller signatures would be a good reason to want to use d-ecdsa vs hash-based-signature | 12:28 |
| bramm | There are tricks for reducing the size of hash-based signatures which may be applicable | 12:28 |
| amiller | yeah like winternitz compression | 12:29 |
| amiller | i don't think nay of those buy you anything in this setting | 12:29 |
| bramm | I'll have to think about it | 12:29 |
| andytoshi | thx kanzure, unfortunately i don't have any spare cycles to think about high-latency mixers for the forseeable future | 12:29 |
| amiller | actually here's the biggest problem i think with this cuckoo approach | 12:30 |
| amiller | busting pools this way means we need to tolerate faster shares somehow | 12:30 |
| amiller | and good parameters for cuckoo are already starting to require long attempts | 12:30 |
| amiller | like, tens of seconds per attempt or something | 12:31 |
| amiller | that definitely starts to interfere with the costly bandwidth argument | 12:31 |
| bramm | Not sure what you mean. Cuckoo's long attempts are something which needs to be taken into consideration regardless. | 12:31 |
| amiller | i guess that's true | 12:31 |
| bramm | Long attempts are not in and of themselves disastrous because they can be done in parallel. Does create a minimum time between blocks, which might not be a bad thing. | 12:31 |
| amiller | does it affect p2pool | 12:32 |
| amiller | or any other way of lowering variance | 12:32 |
| bramm | probably affects them a lot, I haven't thought it through yet | 12:32 |
| bramm | And anyway, the idea is to fuck their shit up | 12:32 |
| amiller | its one thing to compare it to the interblock time, but lower variance is achieved by having someone find a solution every few seconds or something | 12:32 |
| amiller | yeah yeah but you have to provide low variance somehow, and the only way i know of how, even if pools are busted up, involves having frequent shares | 12:33 |
| bramm | I'm liking this nonoutsourcing thing a lot more now that I know that it obliterates partials, that will really mess up pools something good. | 12:33 |
| amiller | great :D | 12:34 |
| amiller | although, i think pools aren't nearly as scary as hosted mining. | 12:34 |
| bramm | There's another trick where you make there be two levels of mining success - one of which makes a new block and the other of which is a mining success. That can add a lot more rewards. | 12:34 |
| amiller | bramm, yeah definitely | 12:35 |
| amiller | bramm, but... actually i guess that doesn't hurt the progress free thing as much | 12:35 |
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| amiller | like if it takes 10 seconds to make an attempt, and several people win "shares" at the same time, they can still get some reward for it maybe | 12:35 |
| bramm | It seems there's a long list of things which can be done to fuck with miners/asics/hosting/pools. No single one of them really fixes the problem, but all of them help a bit. If you're starting from scratch you can pull out all the stops | 12:36 |
| amiller | yeah | 12:36 |
| bramm | There's another really neat thing which I'm keeping secret for now | 12:36 |
| amiller | what is it | 12:36 |
| bramm | It's a secret :-) | 12:36 |
| amiller | you can tell us | 12:37 |
| kanzure | the previous arguments about being ignorant in secret didn't work on you? | 12:37 |
| amiller | why would you bother announcing a secret like that | 12:37 |
| amiller | kinda rude! | 12:37 |
| kanzure | yep | 12:37 |
| bramm | I've sort of announced it already. I posted about how I've found a more practical proof of sequential work | 12:37 |
| amiller | proof of sequential work? | 12:37 |
| bramm | https://eprint.iacr.org/2011/553.pdf | 12:38 |
| amiller | like this one ?http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~mohammad/files/papers/15%20TimeStamp.pdf | 12:38 |
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| amiller | yeah those links coincide :) | 12:38 |
| bramm | Yes, like that one, I figured out an improvement on it and something neat which can be done with it | 12:38 |
| amiller | okay well i'm interested in that | 12:38 |
| amiller | maybe you'll tell me in confidence if it's that big of a trade secret but you don't want to make me feel bad and waste time wondering about what it might be | 12:39 |
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| bramm | I'm sorry I mentioned it really, I didn't mean to taunt | 12:39 |
| bramm | Just saying there are lots of things which can be done | 12:39 |
| amiller | do you have a good undersatnding of that paper? | 12:40 |
| amiller | i can't intuitively imagine what the structure of that expander graph thing looks like | 12:40 |
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| bramm | amiller, reasonably good, I have a much better intuitive understanding of my improved construction | 12:40 |
| amiller | i get the idea that it's building up a dag of some kind with long paths through it and pretty low width but i can't figure out what it looks like and i haven't implemented the stupid zig zag expander thing | 12:40 |
| bramm | Like, I forgot their construction after figuring out a better one | 12:40 |
| amiller | okay | 12:40 |
| Eliel_ | I wonder if pools are actually necessary... I mean, individual miners could easily do optimistic tit for tat between themselves. The valuable thing being lower difficulty shares for blocks that'd pay the cooperating miners if it was a real block. | 12:40 |
| amiller | is the thing that can be done with it also part of the secret? | 12:40 |
| amiller | i'm not going to stay up at night wondering about the improved construction | 12:41 |
| bramm | Yes the thing which can be done with it is the real secret. Although I feel silly talking about it as a secret, it was the first thing I thought of when the structure of bitcoin was explained to me. | 12:41 |
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| amiller | okwell i look forward to hearing about it later, you can rest your conscience because i've sort of stopped caring as much already, maybe i just have better discipline than last time this happened :) | 12:42 |
| bramm | not sure what you mean about last time this happened | 12:43 |
| amiller | last time someone told me there was a secret and i was butthurt for a wihle because i really wanted to know what it was | 12:44 |
| amiller | btw i know a secret that you would probably pay like 10btc to know so there | 12:45 |
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| bramm | I'm being fairly open about ideas that I have, because in many cases other people have already thought of them, and even if they haven't they can often improve on them. I'm just keeping something particularly clever and particularly well buttoned down so I'm not so worried about screwing it up as a secret for now. All will be revealed in time. | 12:46 |
| bramm | The question of how to have separate, or somewhat separate, mining rewards and block minting when you have a long cycle time like cuckoo is an interesting one | 12:48 |
| bramm | I'm all ears about peoples's suggestions about that one. I've enumerated different approaches and am not particularly sold on any of them. | 12:48 |
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| bramm | Like, what's the incentive for including mining rewards for others in a new block? Does it make getting a new block more likely? Does it give a greater reward to the block maker? | 12:55 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramm, if you dont reference the actual current tip you increase the risk of an orphan substantially | 12:56 |
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| bramm | phantomcircuit, Well yes all successful mining operations have to reference either the most recent of a fairly recent head | 12:57 |
| bramm | Otherwise you aren't really doing anything useful | 12:57 |
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| bramm | But there is a question of how long mining rewards which don't create a new block can sit around before being included and rewarded. | 13:01 |
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| bramm | I'm surprised that this sort of stuff hasn't been written about extensively already. It seems like a good way to reduce mining pooling is to make rewards more distributed to begin with. | 13:10 |
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| kanzure | was there a name for the sometimes-the-reward-is-10x proposal? | 13:13 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramm, i dont follow | 13:15 |
| phantomcircuit | mining rewards are when a new block is created | 13:16 |
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| bramm | phantomcircuit, If you're making a new protocol from scratch you can make it so that near misses get credit | 13:19 |
| bramm | kanzure, That's the opposite of what I'm suggesting | 13:19 |
| Luke-Jr | bramm: if you're making a new protocol from scratch, then it's off-topic here; see ##altcoin-dev | 13:19 |
| phantomcircuit | ah right | 13:19 |
| kanzure | bramm: i didn't mean to claim it was your idea, or related, whoops | 13:20 |
| phantomcircuit | Luke-Jr, eh i think it's on topic (this stuff easily applies to sidechains) | 13:20 |
| kanzure | keeping secrets is off-topic and hostile | 13:20 |
| Luke-Jr | phantomcircuit: not really if it's "from scratch" (and incompatible with bitcoin's existing financial commitments) | 13:21 |
| bramm | Yeah side-chains can have whatever mining system they want | 13:21 |
| Luke-Jr | I suppose demurrage could be done for this, but that'd be.. ugly | 13:22 |
| bramm | demurrage? | 13:22 |
| Luke-Jr | bramm: sidechains can't just create bitcoins from thin air | 13:23 |
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| bramm | sidechains can create sidechain coins all they want and then have some mechanism for deciding how bitcoins get assigned to them | 13:23 |
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| bramm | And anyway, I am happy to discuss rejiggering mining rewards as a thing to be done to bitcoin, it's no more implausible than 90% of the other stuff we've been discussing | 13:25 |
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| phantomcircuit | Luke-Jr, afaik a sidechain could be implemented using close to arbitrary rules as long as you can generate a compact spv proof which works with whatever the op code does | 13:27 |
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| Luke-Jr | phantomcircuit: yeah, but that's just implementation - in the end, the bitcoins it has available are set | 13:28 |
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| bramm | phantomcircuit, doesn't even have to strongly justify itself to the main chain directly, just show that it's been consistent about a certain transaction for a while | 13:28 |
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| bramm | so anyway, if one were to have a policy of rewarding partials directly in new blocks in bitcoin, how would you incentivize it? | 13:32 |
| bramm | One thing to do is count partials as affecting height | 13:33 |
| bramm | So if you don't reward any partials in your block, it will wind up an orphan | 13:33 |
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| kanzure | they would just reward their own partials | 13:36 |
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| bramm | The idea is that everybody is incented to reward all partials | 13:36 |
| bramm | although obviously you're more incented to reward your own | 13:36 |
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| andytoshi | you should hoard partials, then when a block appears you can copy all the partials from it, add your hoarded ones, then publish a conflict | 13:37 |
| andytoshi | since you will have strictly more partials, if these affect height then you win | 13:37 |
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| bramm | andytoshi, There can be a rule that partials must be rewarded in the same or next block | 13:38 |
| gmaxwell | would be the same block in what andytoshi is saying. | 13:38 |
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| bramm | Well, there is a potential problem that if partials are counted as part of height you can withhold them for a while and use that to reorg but hopefully by then something else already has greater depth and the height formula is such that it won't work any more | 13:40 |
| bramm | The idea is that partials should be broadcast out to everyone in the same way that transactions are | 13:41 |
| amiller | kanzure, i dunno, i think a phrase like "jackpot" or "high variance reward component" should evoke it pretty unambiguously | 13:41 |
| amiller | "powerball-style bitcoin rewards" | 13:41 |
| bramm | The ways in which partial inclusion can be rewarded are: direct reward amount, increased chances of success, and increased height | 13:42 |
| bramm | I'm not even sure which one of them works best in principle | 13:42 |
| andytoshi | "hopefully by then something else already has greater depth" i described an attack where you take the current greatest depth and create a reorg to a chain with your block with strictly greater depth | 13:42 |
| bramm | andytoshi, I'm not sure what attack you're describing | 13:43 |
| amiller | andytoshi, link? | 13:43 |
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| andytoshi | amiller: bramm: my two-line comment above | 13:44 |
| andytoshi | "you should hoard partials..." is the attack | 13:44 |
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| andytoshi | because now you've got a situation where "last to publish their block wins" | 13:44 |
| amiller | oh okay i understand | 13:44 |
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| bramm | We can have a system where, for example, partials are 1/128 and blocks which don't give rewards to at least 128 partials are treated as orphan. Then everybody posts their partials as if they're transactions, and peers glom up as many partials as they can to meet the threshold | 13:45 |
| andytoshi | then by withholding partials you make it less likely that other miners can get a block | 13:45 |
| andytoshi | so everyone only has their own partials, and that's not progress free | 13:45 |
| bramm | But by hoarding partials you won't get the kickbacks for them when others make new blocks, and they become worthless as soon as a new block is hit | 13:46 |
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| bramm | The incentives are highly dependent on exact subtle details of the rules about what counts | 13:47 |
| bramm | As are the potential attacks | 13:47 |
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| bramm | If you have less than 50% of the mining capacity then hoarding becomes a net loss | 13:50 |
| bramm | At least in a simple threshold scheme | 13:50 |
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| bramm | Hey zooko | 13:56 |
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| zooko | Hiya bramm! | 14:24 |
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| tromp_ | hi, guys. what does the 2nd m in bramm stand for? | 14:26 |
| helo | i hope it's muffins | 14:26 |
| kanzure | probably stands for "someone else registered bram" | 14:26 |
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| tromp_ | then i'd expect bramc. bramm smells of bram moolenaar (vim author) | 14:28 |
| bramm | tromp_, It stands for 'I lost the bram login, along with all ops of any kind for #bittorrent disappearing, because I hadn't logged in in too long' | 14:29 |
| bramm | oh, that didn't occur to me, I should use bramc | 14:29 |
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| * zooko reads IRC backlog and laughs | 14:31 | |
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| bramc | zooko, How is that funny? | 14:36 |
| zooko | I definitely think you should pay amiller 10Kⓑ quick, before it is too late. | 14:36 |
| * nsh smiles | 14:37 | |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: OK, I posted the results of my hacky simulator for the server concept. Code needs some neatening before posting, but RSN. http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/12/04/Pettycoin-Revisited-Part-II:-Proof-of-Propogation.html | 19:25 |
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| nsh | rusty plays "simulator", earns SEVENTEEN cool-points|! | 19:48 |
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| bramc | A dumb question about transaction malleability: Are bitcoin transactions not cleanly separated into a 'transaction' part and a 'signature' part? If they were it would seem reasonable to view the transaction part as the important/canonical bit | 22:09 |
| OP_MUL | some people at one point made an alternate "normalised transaction hash" that did just that. it never made it into bitcoin core or anywhere else as far as I can see. | 22:13 |
| OP_MUL | you can find a lot of talk about it here, and why it's not a solution to malleability as such. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656 | 22:13 |
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| OP_MUL | (this was just before Mt Gox went away for good, part of the reason why it was made suddenly and then denied was that Mt Gox claimed transaction malleability was responsible for their losses) | 22:14 |
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| OP_MUL | (it might have been, the backstory was that their system would send out a transaction with their known hash, then look for the transaction in a block, if it wasn't there after a certain period they would resign a new transaction with different outputs as a replacement. if the initial TX was mutated they ended up paying some transactions many times under different TXID) | 22:16 |
| adam3us | the mistake being to not double spend one or more of those inputs so that someone couldnt use it to withdraw multiple times | 22:17 |
| OP_MUL | (I think the code was supposed to sign double spends so that this couldn't happen, but it didn't function properly or something, I can't quite remember. the end result was that they lost maybe a few BTC) | 22:17 |
| midnightmagic | it likely was not responsible for most of the thefts (presuming they were thefts) | 22:17 |
| OP_MUL | oh no, but the whole situation explains nicely about normalised transaction IDs and why they probably aren't a good idea. | 22:20 |
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| midnightmagic | for sure | 23:02 |
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| bramc | You know, the important thing is which utxo(s) the payment came out of. Those are what needs to be kept consistent, and should be plenty for the receiving side to verify that they got the payment | 23:04 |
| op_null | BIP62 means it's very hard for people on the network to mutate transactions, but you can't stop people making the transaction from creating mutants. | 23:06 |
| bramc | And yes, it seems hardly anyone believes mtgox's story | 23:06 |
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| op_null | bramc: that's because there's nothing to support 700k BTC being mistakenly sent like that. | 23:07 |
| bramc | op_null, but any resulting transaction will involve the same utxos. At least I hope it well! | 23:07 |
| bramc | will not well | 23:07 |
| op_null | the maker of a transaction will always be able to change and grid the UTXO hash though, signature or no signature. just rolling the change address output would do the trick. | 23:08 |
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| nsh | grid? | 23:09 |
| op_null | grind | 23:09 |
| op_null | somebody had a lottery at one point which used the TXID as a random oracle, hence that comment. | 23:10 |
| op_null | and somebody was trying to convince me earlier that a mod to ECDSA would stop people from being able to roll nonces, well, obviously that can't happen without exposing the private key :P | 23:13 |
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| gmaxwell | op_null: it wasn't applicable there, but technically one can convert ecdsa into a one time signature by requring the key use only a single nonce which is pre-commited to. Though if someone wants a unique signature there are probably better constructions (esp since even with making it one time, it's still not unique). | 23:17 |
| nsh | hmm | 23:18 |
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| bramc | Oh, are output utxos dependent on the exact encoding of a transaction? If so, that causes issues even for very simple things like atomic transfers | 23:32 |
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| op_null | bramc: yes. when you reference a previous transaction as a vin, you reference the TXID and the index down the TXID of the output you wish to spend. | 23:53 |
| op_null | bramc: that's one of the reasons spending unconfirmed outputs is a bad idea, you risk making large chains of transactions that could be invalidated by an alternate inclusion in a block. | 23:54 |
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| bramc | op_null, a send-back transaction signed by the counterparty is part of the atomic transactions protocol, at least until the opcode to make ways of unlocking utxos be timelocked is added | 23:55 |
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| bramc | So that's a case where not being able to reference an output before it's happened is a real problem. | 23:57 |
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