2015-01-15.log

--- Log opened Thu Jan 15 00:00:24 2015
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fluffyponyhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/14/nsa_sorry_we_borked_nist_encryption_well_sorry_we_got_caught/01:16
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fluffyponyalso this was an excellent talk: http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6240_-_en_-_saal_g_-_201412271400_-_reproducible_builds_-_mike_perry_-_seth_schoen_-_hans_steiner.html#video04:17
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op_mulI've seen the topic of output selection come up a few times here, and the general answer is that there's no answer that's *ideal*.06:30
op_mulI came up with a mildly novel attack against some forms out output selection (used by a few wallets), where the software just orders all UTXO by their age and then consumes them sequentially.06:31
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op_mulgiven two transactions, you can work out if they are maybe related or not just by the age of the outputs they consume. if a later transaction consumed outputs older than an earlier one, they aren't made by the same wallet.06:34
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op_mulonly works if you have some other hints about the users software (human leaks, other features of a transaction that might reveal it), but a bit of fun none the less.06:35
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earlzWould it be useful if teh block Nonce field was upgraded from 32bit to 64bit?07:09
earlzThere is extranonce, but it seems like a bit of a hack and requires recalculating the merkelhash and is generally more complicated07:09
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kanzureop_mul: i think there are ideal answers for output selection depending on the particular use... and i'd agree with you that it's unlikely that there's an ideal single solution that works across all possible uses.08:13
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* op_mul nods08:15
op_mulI'd just never thought of it as a privacy risk before08:15
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hearnop_mul: i wrote an article on the topic some time ago: http://www.coindesk.com/merge-avoidance-privacy-bitcoin/08:30
hearnbitcoinj is one of the wallets that just works through utxos in age order, mostly08:30
hearnthe idea was to maximise priority so transactions could be free as often as possible, but of course that never really happened, free txns are pretty broken at the moment08:31
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op_mulhearn: oh good to know08:32
hearni'd like to bring free txns back at some point because it's a big selling point for bitcoin, the difference between "tiny fee" and "free" psychologically is huge08:32
hearnbut it needs a bunch of changes08:32
op_mulwhen does bitcoinj not use oldest first selection?08:35
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justanotheruserGiven that we have a UTXO merkle tree in a block, is it possible for a thin client to pay to a think client without a server? It is pretty obvious how a full node could pay to a thin client and tell them which block and which branch the transaction is, or how a thin client could pay a full node without a server. Is there a way to do it where both the payer and the receiver are serverless thin clients?09:19
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hearnop_mul: it can be customised by the app09:47
hearnop_mul: the default selector is pretty dumb though. we never implemented anything as complicated as satoshi's knapsack solver.09:47
hearnmy original plan was to investigate using general constraint solvers, but in the end people just ended up attaching a fee for every tx. the amounts are so small that it wasn't the lowest hanging fruit09:48
hearnpeople have other concerns09:48
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nshdoes anyone have a proof-of-existence service that uses OP_RETURN yet?13:57
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justanotherusernsh: the first result for proof of existence does14:37
nsh\o/ (sorry for lazyasking)14:39
* nsh wonders if there's one that will host the file so it's google indexable too 14:39
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justanotheruserHopefully we won't even be using op_return when sidechains come out :P14:43
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bramcReally dumb question about SPV: Do blocks contain a link to a merkle root of all the transactions they process?16:59
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justanotheruserbramc: yes, the merkle roots in the block header.17:00
bramcjustanotheruser, That's the merkle root of the new transactions for that particular block, correct?17:00
justanotheruseryes, the tx in the block17:00
bramcOh okay, I remember there being discussion about there being a lack of merkle root, that must be for the set of all transactions so far17:01
justanotheruserthey may have been discussing a UTXO merkle tree17:01
bramcYes exactly17:02
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bramcAlthough it isn't obvious whether such an extension should include all txos or just the utxos17:04
justanotheruserI don't think all the txos would be useful17:05
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bramcPerhaps not, but it could resolve the wft if a client thinks it has a utxos and is rejected17:09
justanotherusernot sure how it could do that17:11
justanotheruserIf it isn't in the utxo then it isn't in the utxo. If you spent it, your wallet should know that17:12
bramcIt could disambiguate between 'double spent' and 'never issued'. That might not matter though.17:13
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farakais it possible to audit offchain transactions with non interactive zkp's on bitcoin's blockchain?20:28
farakait is difficult to track how much the exchange has received and withdrawn and validate those addresses20:29
farakai can't wrap my head around how to do it.20:29
bramcfaraka, Not sure what it is you'd like to audit (not like I have a good answer in any case)20:30
farakatotal balance20:31
bramcAn exchange can straightforwardly prove that they have a certain amount of balance in reserve just by moving it around. That doesn't stop them from lieing about how much they've told people they have in deposits though.20:31
farakaproof of balance20:31
farakatrue, they can reuse addresses, aside from being a costly mechanism20:32
bramcNot particularly costly, just have a single massive coin which you move around like a hot potato20:32
farakadon't like that, it's like a heist waiting to happen.20:33
bramcOr for each individual they could have a coin corresponding specifically to that individual's holdings, although that raises the question of why you're using an exchange at all.20:34
bramcBitcoin in general is a heist waiting to happen.20:34
farakai presented something trivial at the miami bitcoin hackathon, but i realized it was useless if it can't prevent off chain heists.20:35
farakamy friend is convinced a student will break bitcoin.20:35
farakain theory a good non interactive zkp would render the blockchain useless.20:37
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bramcNot sure what you're talking about doing a zkp of. The problem with doing proofs of deposit about things like dollars is that they're something which exists out in the wild, and you can't prove anything about them without relying on some external attestation.20:49
bramcWhy does SPV use a bloom filter instead of specifying leading bits?20:59
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amiller_bramc, what are you talking about, you can represent a large number of elements in a bloom filter using a very small number of bits, way more than specifying the leading bits of all the elements21:07
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bramcamiller_, I was thinking mostly from the point of view of requesting a single thing21:12
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bramcA prefix there provides arguably better anonymity. Or not. There are arguments either way as to whether clustering like that is better.21:13
bramcIf two people are in a transaction together and they ask using bloom filters, then if you know that they're in a transaction together you can guess which transaction it is, but if you don't know they're in a transaction together then you have an easier time guessing that if they specify a prefix21:16
bramcUnless the whole point of the exercise is to request specific things using the minimum bandwidth possible, without worrying about anonymity, in which case I guess bloom filters make sense.21:17
bramcAlthough I find it hard to imagine that most wallets need more than one thing at a time.21:18
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bramcWhat does it mean that a block can't be more than a million bytes when it's including the merkle root of transactions? Doesn't that make the block per se small? Or does the million refer to the sum total of the sizes of all the transactions?22:13
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midnightmagicbramc: a block size calculation includes all its transactions23:50
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bramcThanks, that explains that23:54
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bramcMy comment before about prefixes is really about whether ntweak is actually a good idea or whether it should be standardized23:55
phantomcircuitnote that doesn't include the size of the merkle tree23:55
phantomcircuitheader + transactions23:55
bramcRight, that was my assumption but I forgot to ask23:56
bramcIs the merkle root canonical based on the transactions which went in?23:56
phantomcircuitbramc, it's based on the arbitrary order in which transactions are put into the block23:57
bramc*headdesk*23:58
phantomcircuitthere has been some rumblings about setting the order23:58
phantomcircuitbut well transactions are malleable anyways so that's kind of pointless to do before fixing that23:59
phantomcircuitmostly it doesn't matter except if you have dependent transactions in the same block23:59
--- Log closed Fri Jan 16 00:00:25 2015

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