2015-02-05.log

--- Log opened Thu Feb 05 00:00:45 2015
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instagibbscome on wizards it's not e^{} or e^() it's exp()  :)05:57
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dgenr8watched gmaxwell and adam3us dealing with a really crappy video link ... fascinating interview.  my eyebrows raised at the part where you talked about using moxiebox to keep miners from modifying their software07:03
dgenr8are we talking about closed source?  or do I have this all wrong (I hope)07:03
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andytoshidgenr8: definitely not closed source07:13
andytoshidgenr8: the idea is that the consensus code is in a (small enough to be interpreted by auditable and clearly-correct code) assembler language07:14
andytoshidgenr8: then it is hashed before execution to ensure that everyone is running exactly the same code07:14
andytoshithis only applies to consensus code, not policy issues, network transport, etc07:15
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dgenr8if a misguided miner wanted to modify it, could he?07:32
dgenr8yes, the consensus code07:32
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CoinMuncheryes, but the point is that would be his problem, not anyone elses.07:40
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dgenr8how does a remote node know what code I'm running?  and supposing this is possible, btcd must adapt or die?07:49
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* nsh blinks07:57
nshi think there's a misunderstanding07:58
andytoshidgenr8: ofc a miner -could- modify the code, but he'd gain literally nothing except to have stopped mining bitcoin07:58
andytoshidgenr8: and if btcd is running functionally different code than bitcoin core (and no doubt they are) they already have a problem07:58
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dgenr8nsh: could you point me to the source of your understanding please08:00
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nshwell, i haven't seen the video you're referring to and don't know awfully much about the moxiebox ideas in general08:02
nshso i should reserve comment until i'm better informed08:02
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andytoshiyou can probably search the logs for "moxie" ... i don't think this has been written up anywhere08:08
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sirajany thoughts on automated transactions? It would allow for atomic cross chain transfers between blockchains with this implemented  http://ciyam.org/at/08:14
maakusiraj: you can do atomic cross chain transactions today08:16
sirajif this was implemented in bitcoin you could spend bitcoin on filecoin based storage (IPFS) assuming both implemented AT. Seamless. It could be apart of the W3C of the internet of money08:16
sirajmaaku: what was the enabling technology for that in BTC?08:16
nshinternet-of-X considered harmful08:16
maakusiraj: bitcoin script.08:16
maakusiraj: to the rest, AT is hideously complex and will never be implemented in bitcoin08:17
maakuwe may hopefully see some more targetted changes to bitcoin script that make it more expressive, but it would need to be sensitive to consensus issues08:18
zookosiraj: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading08:19
sirajdope, reading up on it thx08:19
fluffyponyandytoshi: have you got the alts.pdf commit history up on github or not?08:19
zookosiraj: but be warned, I think there is an attack on that through txn malleability.08:19
zookoMaybe someone should add that caveat to that wiki page... maybe me...08:19
* nsh smiles08:19
fluffyponynsh: you mean you don't want your connected lightbulb ordering you replacement toilet paper?08:19
sirajzooko: plz do08:19
nshwell, once you put it that way, i'm very excited. i might write a book for tim o'reilly!08:20
nshhttps://i.imgur.com/AwxjWZF.png08:20
nsh^ DARPA cyber-grand-challenge *smg*08:21
nshthe fingerprint-bone's connected to the wifi-bone. the wifi-bone's connected to the washingmachine-bone08:21
fluffypony"smart fingerprints"08:21
nshNow heaaaaar the word of the Lord!08:22
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andytoshifluffypony: no, sorry, it's on my todo list... right now it's at git://git.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alt-essay.git08:45
fluffyponytks08:45
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andytoshizooko: i'm blocked by cloudflare .. can you say whether the wiki version is comprehensible? if not you may want to copy the version from the sidechains whitepaper http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf08:51
andytoshithe tiernolan bct thread that i adapted that from wasn't really comprehensible08:51
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andytoshi(the sidechains wp should also have a malleability caveat, but i think we didn't because bip62 was already in progress08:52
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zookoFor future reference, it might be worth mentioning that malleability *would* be a problem in the following way, if malleability were possible.08:56
zookoAlthough I recognize that the side-chains paper was already long and dense. :-)08:56
zookoandytoshi: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_cross-chain_trading looks good to me.08:57
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maakuandytoshi: we aren't building chains of unconfirmed transactions though12:28
maakuoh you mean in referening the atomic cross-chain work12:28
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dgenr8andytoshi: How can a remote node know what code I'm running?  I can think only of some kind of signature performed by obfuscated code.13:42
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gmaxwelldgenr8: I think adam misspoke when he said something like "prevent soft forks";  though you can do ugly things to prevent people from changing software he wasn't talking about that, but rather have a strong public commitment to no intentional changes (e.g. never again have some coordinated soft fork) to the core, and have a design that makes accidental changes unlikely.14:04
gmaxwell(you can 'prevent' people from changing the software by using remote attest, though the strength of that is limited.)14:05
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dgenr8gmaxwell, thanks :)14:08
nshremote attestation as only as strong as the the precision of timing measurement crossed the optimality of the attested algorithm14:11
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kanzureyahoo labs bitcoin presentation http://labs.yahoo.com/_c/uploads/ETH_11142.pdf20:53
kanzurenot sure about page 3420:57
gmaxwellkanzure: can you decode "input" in the context of the presentation for me?20:59
kanzurepage 12 function I()21:00
kanzurenot sure21:00
kanzurei suppose that's the set of transactions?21:00
gmaxwellyea, doesn't actually make sense to me. It sounds like the set of transactions they're mining.21:00
gmaxwellRight but the only 'change your input' you do in a reorg, is the minimum required to not produce invalid blocks with respect to the new predicate.21:01
kanzuretheir purple question "How do we prevent the adversary from shifting its hashing power from one to the other?" is alarming to me (indicates they might be missing something important)21:01
gmaxwellit may be related to the assumption the ghost stuff tries to address; Satoshi's model is flawed in that orphaning rate means that an efficient ("centeralized") attacker can win against the honest decenteralized miners just by being more consolidated even with a minority hashrate. ... but only if its close enough to a majority by some value proportional to the orphan rate.  For bitcoin 10 minutes21:05
gmaxwellis large enough relative to propagation that this effect can basically be ignored.21:05
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 06 00:00:01 2015

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