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| jdvs | it's difficult for me to determine if omnicoin is based on the bitcoin blockchain or another blockchain, does anyone know the answer to this? | 05:15 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | jdvs: it's forked from Bitcoin, so undoubtedly yes | 05:17 |
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| fluffypony | forked from an old version of Bitcoin too, like 0.8-ish | 05:21 |
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| maaku | GreenIsMyPepper: where does SIGHASH_NORMALIZED get the normalized transaction IDs from? | 09:57 |
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| bramc | A question I keep meaning to ask: If there are a bunch of utxos all of which can be unlocked with the same key, can they all be accumulated together with a single transaction which has a single signature? | 10:06 |
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| sipa | no, you need a signature per input | 10:08 |
| sipa | in theory it would be possible to allow them to be combined | 10:09 |
| sipa | but it would require a more complex design | 10:09 |
| sipa | and it would encourage key reuse | 10:09 |
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| Eliel | yep, not going to happen because of that last part. | 10:13 |
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| nsh | sipa, can you sketch the more complex design? | 10:18 |
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| maaku | nsh: i'm not sure sipa was referencing an actual design so much as commenting that bitcoin transaction format is not expressive enough to represent 'one signature covering multiple inputs' | 10:23 |
| nsh | right | 10:23 |
| nsh | but you might have a sidechain that is, conceivably? | 10:24 |
| maaku | sure, maybe, but why would you want to? | 10:27 |
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| nsh | maaku, good question | 10:29 |
| nsh | i don't presume to be able to guess bramc's thinking | 10:30 |
| nsh | some kind of consolidation / defragmentation maybe | 10:30 |
| bramc | nsh, It's useful for reducing transaction fees by making transactions smaller (at least in the future, when such things are correlated) and yes I'm thinking of it for cleaning up dust, or at least change-making | 10:32 |
| nsh | right | 10:32 |
| bramc | There's no real anonymity lost by sending a bunch of outputs to the same key if they're all going to be consolidated together anyway. | 10:33 |
| nsh | i mooted at some point a kind of sweeper service that's funded from mining subsidies somehow | 10:33 |
| nsh | but it was very woolly thinking | 10:33 |
| bramc | There isn't a very good change-making service out there right now. Cryptoshuffle might be one but I haven't read that paper yet. | 10:34 |
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| bramc | I mean, cryptoshuffle might be a proposal for one, I don't believe anyone claims to be running such a service. | 10:35 |
| * nsh nods | 10:36 | |
| bramc | It would be nice if there was a bitcoin wallet which had a 'make change' button which cleaned up the dust and unlinked all the utxos through a centralized service which specialized in that | 10:37 |
| bramc | It's unclear how much demand there might be for such a beast though. | 10:37 |
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| bramc | But working on the design of that centralized service would be fun | 10:40 |
| nsh | what would the trust implications be? | 10:40 |
| nsh | (better than using bc.i obviously, but non-zero presumably) | 10:41 |
| bramc | nsh, Not all that much if you use simultaneous transfer properly, a little bit of threat that the centralized service could re-link your unlinked transactions, or if they screw it up could reveal information about your business with them and hence who you are | 10:42 |
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| bramc | At one point in this channel we had a discussion about the algorithms for picking which utxos to combine/split when making a payment from a wallet. The upshot was basically 'we do this, but have no coherent intellectual basis for arguing that other algorithms are better or worse' | 10:43 |
| nsh | right | 10:43 |
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| bramc | After thinking about it a bunch, my conclusion is that what you really should do is make payments by taking the smallest coin you have bigger than the target and splitting it in two, and move the extra into your dust pile, along with all received transactions, and when the amount of dust gets too much go use the change-making service | 10:45 |
| bramc | There's a potential natural monopoly with the change-making service, because the bigger the pool the better the unlinking | 10:45 |
| nsh | to greater the extent to which the input-choice algorithm is deterministic, the greater the ability to link transactions | 10:47 |
| nsh | if you coupled with lossy mechanisms like coin-join that could be mitigated | 10:47 |
| bramc | Sort of, randomization can open you up to attacks as well, where lots of small transactions are more likely to give away your identity | 10:48 |
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| nsh | right, yup | 10:48 |
| nsh | randomness can be just as pernicious | 10:48 |
| nsh | just less intuitively :/ | 10:48 |
| bramc | The unlinking service I'm talking about would basically be a massive better version of coin-join | 10:48 |
| nsh | ah right. that's favorable imho | 10:48 |
| nsh | but as i understand it, the complexity of coin-join grows as you scale it up to more users | 10:49 |
| bramc | It seems like a potentially good business, and fun to work on, but I'm busy working on other stuff | 10:49 |
| * nsh nods | 10:49 | |
| bramc | It gets a lot easier if you have a centralized service and trust the centralized service to throw out their data eventually. The idea is that you do a coinswap with the service for all of your utxos, where they give you back somewhat better formed change by consolidating some of the dust they got from other people | 10:51 |
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| nsh | right. you can certainly increase the transparency and auditability to some 'trustworthy' threshold (again, certainly compared to e.g. bc.i) | 10:52 |
| nsh | but proving the destruction of information is basically impossible | 10:52 |
| nsh | that's the problem with trusted set-up (common reference string) schemes too | 10:52 |
| bramc | The service needs a certain amount of working capital, and some algorithms for deciding which utxos to consolidate together when. That's the fun part. | 10:52 |
| * nsh nods | 10:52 | |
| bramc | Dumb question: what are you referencing by bc.i? | 10:52 |
| nsh | because lots of people just trust these guys with their wallet keys, as i understand it | 10:53 |
| nsh | and that is really not too warranted from experience | 10:53 |
| nsh | i'm just picking on them because i'm too lazy to think of other examples though | 10:53 |
| nsh | oh, blockchain.info | 10:53 |
| nsh | sorry | 10:53 |
| bramc | Yeah trusting with wallet keys is totally cringeworthy. It calls into question whether you can get customers by doing things like change-making securely | 10:54 |
| * nsh nods | 10:54 | |
| bramc | It could be that any such change-making service would wind up mostly servicing the relatively small number of vendors who are mostly receiving payments rather than sending them | 10:54 |
| nsh | cultivating the right degree and the right kind of paranoia in the general public is a hard problem | 10:54 |
| * nsh nods | 10:54 | |
| bramc | Although that would of course still be a very real business | 10:55 |
| nsh | aye | 10:57 |
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| bramc | Making it truly decentralized is an interesting academic challenge but probably vastly less secure than using a centralized service | 11:03 |
| nsh | i'm not sure i follow | 11:03 |
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| nsh | centralization generally concentrates the negative consequences of insecurity | 11:04 |
| nsh | in exchange for lower complexity or better synchronicity | 11:04 |
| bramc | If you try to make a truly decentralized change-making service, there are a lot more potential attacks where the participants mess with whoever they happen to be interacting with | 11:06 |
| nsh | ah, i see | 11:09 |
| nsh | yeah i guess you have more leeway to leverage human psychology/error in a decentralized solution that involves cluefulness | 11:09 |
| bramc | It isn't just psychology. There are potential connection flooding attacks and selective leaving and tagging when you're participating in a decentralized system | 11:11 |
| nsh | that too, aye | 11:15 |
| nsh | you have to be very careful delegating security properties to unexamined assumptions about network connectivity | 11:16 |
| nsh | this is a common way to screw up | 11:16 |
| nsh | s/delegating...to/making contingent...on/ | 11:18 |
| bramc | Given what a huge improvement the centralized system would be over what exists today, it's more compelling to make that. There's also less of a business in making the decentralized thing. But if anybody comes up with interesting designs on the decentralized thing I'd love to see them. | 11:22 |
| sipa | bramc: i think it's a pretty bad idea to have a design that makes loss of privacy cheaper; if you don't reuse keus (which you should for privacy reasons), this optimization does not gain you anything anyway | 11:23 |
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| bramc | sipa, fair enough | 11:27 |
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| adam3us | anyone interested in cryptonote / ring sig crypto? i think you can ~halve the signature size by using section 5.1 from http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.363.3431&rep=rep1&type=pdf | 11:43 |
| nsh | neat | 11:45 |
| andytoshi | adam3us: cool, this is actually quite different from the van saberhagen scheme | 11:51 |
| andytoshi | so i can't just copy the key image over. but probably i can come up with something analogous | 11:51 |
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| andytoshi | hopefully i'll have time for brainteasers later this weekend to do it, if you haven't. (anyone else who wants to give it a shot is welcome to PM me for advice -- i'm 75% sure it's just "straightforward algebra" and does not require math/crypto experience) | 11:53 |
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| adam3us | andytoshi: i think its close enough. if you look at the g^s*y^c that is basically L | 11:54 |
| adam3us | so compute R also and put that also into each hash | 11:54 |
| bramc | There tends to be a fairly firm separation between crypto primitive work and using the primitives to make protocols. The former is mostly math, the latter is mostly 'crypto' | 11:55 |
| andytoshi | oh, yeah, i see...but if R is in there you lose the space savings right? | 11:55 |
| adam3us | and i think you're done (add I to the signature, add R=H(y)^s*I^c to the verification step) | 11:55 |
| adam3us | (and convert to EC basis) | 11:55 |
| adam3us | andytoshi: no because R is computed | 11:56 |
| adam3us | andytoshi: the sig includes I now, and you can compute the rest…. H(y)^s*I^c | 11:57 |
| andytoshi | ok, that seems correct, i'm not confident of security because the van saberhagen scheme has a second set of challenges and i worry they are necessary (and will imply that you need bigger sigs) | 11:58 |
| bramc | This all sounds like fun. I'm stuck in monte carlo land. | 11:58 |
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| andytoshi | but i just need to write it out | 11:58 |
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| adam3us | andytoshi: i have the cryptonote paper here. it includes c_i and q_i which are analogous c_i and s_i here. | 12:00 |
| adam3us | andytoshi: i was trying to figure out how to do this trick (towards my hobby of trying to find a fixed size ring sig for all of utxo ha ha) and found this paper with the magic formula- they did what i was trying to do. | 12:00 |
| adam3us | andytoshi: so that takes it form O(2n+c) to O(n+c) only the pesky O(n) to get rid of :) | 12:01 |
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| andytoshi | adam3us: "analogous" is a stretch, they require sum{c_i} = H(...) so they can program all but one of the c_i's, whereas in this paper the c_i's are all hashes and all-but-one are programmed by chaining into each other, which is enough difference to confuse my intuition | 12:05 |
| andytoshi | but i see what you're saying now, i think that you're right | 12:05 |
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| andytoshi | it's surprising to me that s doesn't even need to change, it's as though c_i = d_i in the van saberhagen scheme | 12:10 |
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| andytoshi | oh never mind, there is no d_i in the saberhagen scheme, i am looking at my own notes which do something else (combining signatures iirc) | 12:12 |
| adam3us | andytoshi: i think the actual challenge requirement is that they depend on the commitments (g^s*y^c) such that you can forge at most n-1 of them and need one private key. the c values are arbitrary and could come from a CPRNG | 12:12 |
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| andytoshi | adam3us: right ... doing it by sum is the "obvious" way, this chaining thing is entirely new to me ... does the space savings come from this change somehow? | 12:14 |
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| andytoshi | ah, i think so, doing it by sum requires that you have a new equation for each new thing you wanna prove the DL of (in this case, the key image I = H(y)^x as well as y = g^x), else you have fewer equations than unknown and are not forced | 12:16 |
| andytoshi | whereas you can put as many things as you want into a single hash challenge and it'll force them all at once | 12:16 |
| andytoshi | very slick | 12:16 |
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| adam3us | andytoshi: yes you only need to send c1, the rest is computed by recurrence. so then the sig becomes c1,s1,…,sn instead of c1,…,cn,s1,…,sn | 12:17 |
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| andytoshi | ok, i understand. the space savings is simply because the recurrence avoids the need to send every c_i. (what i was saying explained how we avoid having both L_i's and R_i's, which are not sent but computed in verification; the paper you posted has only e_i's, so there's also a 50% speedup) | 12:22 |
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| andytoshi | this is really cool, this "ring of hash commitments" is totally out of left field to me | 12:31 |
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| andytoshi | for constant-size sigs, i wonder if you can do something like: replace the s_i's with a single sum of c_i^i*x_i, then [magic magic] this reduces to "given g^x, g^(x^2), ..., g^(x^q) determine g^(x^{q+1})" which is a standard and imo safe assumption (called q-diffie-hellman iirc) | 12:39 |
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| adam3us | andytoshi: i know scribbles on paper here in similar directions. the hard part is to correct it so you dont disclose which signature was the one with known private key. if it can be made to work its practically useful for bitcoin. | 13:03 |
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| adam3us | andytoshi: the issue is one of the s_i values is computed as \alpha-c_i*x_i (where x_i is the private key from y_i = g^x_i) | 13:04 |
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| andytoshi | the other s_i's are random, i wonder if we can deterministically generate them from each other (with an arbitrary one being programmable) with something like an "invertible permutation hash" | 13:10 |
| andytoshi | lol, is there anything wrong with just doing s_i = s_0 + i actually? | 13:11 |
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| andytoshi | or what if all the s_i's are the same? | 13:21 |
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| adam3us | andytoshi: i did try s_{k+1} = E( s_k ) which implies s_{k-1} = D( s_k ) etc however you still arrive back at the problem that either you make the one you can fix coincide with the c_k you are calculating and divulge which is the real private key) | 13:24 |
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| andytoshi | i don't see why, the one you fix is blinded by α which is not revealed | 13:27 |
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| andytoshi | oh derp i see, you cannot actually have all the s_i's constant because you need to know c_k (which depends on s_{k-1}) before you compute s_k | 13:32 |
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| Eliel | if you wanted to help people learn bitcoin better, you'd first need to create a compact but easily understandable materials and then persuade the most popular wallets to include or at least link to it. | 14:30 |
| nsh | you mean documentation? | 14:34 |
| nsh | it's useful to appreciate how the curve might look when you graph the amount of information required to understand something well enough to do it right against the distribution of people who would benefit by using it | 14:36 |
| nsh | i suspect the decay is quite sharp | 14:36 |
| nsh | you can only package things and make them accessible to a certain degree, after that it's just a case of how much a given person is willing to eat the morsels | 14:37 |
| nsh | if you want a wide franchise, you can't expect there to be a large meal of lore to swallow | 14:37 |
| nsh | even if you make it into a yummy fruit smoothie | 14:37 |
| bramc | Given that journalists sometimes write laudatory 'bitcoin is the future' articles while clearly not even understanding what it does and how, I don't think lack of documentation is the problem. | 14:37 |
| nsh | journalism is the problem :) | 14:37 |
| nsh | no, that's glib :) | 14:37 |
| bliljerk101 | what's the bitcoin-wizards channel for? | 14:38 |
| bramc | bliljerk101, For discussing advanced topics and potential new development outside of the day to day of bitcoin development | 14:39 |
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| nsh | discussion of the theory and future developments of the technology of the blockchain and its associated/peripheral things | 14:39 |
| nsh | and sometimes, within reason, other topics that might be of interest to the demographic that would usually discuss such thing | 14:40 |
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| bliljerk101 | i see. i wasn't sure since i don't see much useful discussion going on in here | 14:43 |
| bramc | bliljerk101, You can see past discussion in the archives on bitcoin.ninja | 14:43 |
| nsh | thank goodness you intervened, bliljerk101 :) | 14:44 |
| bramc | It frequently gets deep into arcane and technical discussions | 14:44 |
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| bliljerk101 | bramc thanks. nsh thanks for adding merit to my previous statement | 14:56 |
| * nsh nods | 14:56 | |
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| zooko | phantomcircuit, maaku: Ah! Psychology! Now that is an argument I can admit might be true, although I have a hard time judging if it is true. | 15:54 |
| phantomcircuit | zooko, it's pretty obvious that it's different | 15:55 |
| phantomcircuit | there's a reason the irs collects taxes through withholding and tax collectors | 15:56 |
| maaku | zooko: the psychological argument is real | 15:56 |
| maaku | the other argument is from sticky prices | 15:56 |
| maaku | inflation allows those closest to the source of money to unevenly profit from the inflation | 15:57 |
| zooko | To me sticky prices are another expression of psychology. | 15:57 |
| zooko | Or of inaccurate or limited mental models of the players. | 15:57 |
| maaku | well, in the sense that economics is really a social science | 15:57 |
| zooko | bbiab | 15:58 |
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| agorist000 | IIRC the new 0.10.0 version uses deterministic signing with libsecp256k1. Is this correct? | 21:53 |
| phantomcircuit | agorist000, yes | 21:54 |
| phantomcircuit | signing but not verification | 21:54 |
| agorist000 | Does that mean that the 3rd party TXID malleability problem is solved? | 21:54 |
| phantomcircuit | no | 21:55 |
| agorist000 | I see. What else is needed for this to be solved then? | 21:56 |
| gmaxwell | agorist000: thats a complete and total misunderstanding of what malleability and determinstic signing mean. | 21:56 |
| gmaxwell | its unrelated. | 21:56 |
| gmaxwell | determinstic signing does not and cannot make the signatures unique. | 21:56 |
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| gmaxwell | agorist000: malleability is an intentional feature it cannot be solved without abandoning useful features (like lighthouses' kickstarter transaction); perhaps you only intend to say unwelcome malleability? thats addressed by BIP 62. | 21:58 |
| agorist000 | I see. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I shall have to research further. | 22:00 |
| Luke-Jr | do we need BIP 62 if we end up adding a new OP_CHECKSIG with Joseph's sighash changes? | 22:02 |
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| maaku | Luke-Jr: yes they are mostly unrelated | 22:10 |
| Luke-Jr | implementation-wise, yes; but what does BIP 62 solve that the latter does not? | 22:11 |
| maaku | Joseph's suggestions (if they work... they at minimum require storing more informatino per UTXO than we currently are) are active opt-in | 22:11 |
| maaku | bip 62 are opt-out | 22:11 |
| maaku | and they cover different cases -- e.g. bip 62 doesn't protect against signer malleability, but it does work out of the box for "normal" transactions | 22:12 |
| maaku | whereas Joseph's extensions do protect against signer malleability but are only really usable in certain constructs. they are not generally safe | 22:13 |
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| Luke-Jr | I disagree that BIP62 is any more opt-out.. | 22:16 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | Mmm I guess I see BIP 62 as a "nice to have", but it seems to get you convenience more than security? If an output is a single person/address, the receiver can just re-sign. | 22:17 |
| maaku | Luke-Jr: what I meant is that typical use of the bitcoin protocl is protected by malleability by default with bip62. to be vulnerable you have to "opt out" by using different sighash modes for example | 22:18 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | Whereas a normalized sighash flag lets you spend from a mutated transaction with a multisig output, which is when malleability is actively dangerous IMO | 22:18 |
| Luke-Jr | maaku: you first have to opt-in by using v2 txs | 22:18 |
| maaku | Luke-Jr: eh.. so? that's a trivial one line fix for any infrastructure | 22:19 |
| maaku | GreenIsMyPepper: did you see my point about the normalized txid? | 22:19 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | maaku: which point? sorry | 22:19 |
| maaku | there isn't a way to calulate that from the infromation in the UTXO | 22:19 |
| maaku | *the UTXO db | 22:20 |
| Luke-Jr | maaku: current implementation in Bitcoin Core of the UTXO db* | 22:20 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | no you'd need to also include the normalized txid as part of the UTXO | 22:20 |
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| * Luke-Jr still prefers using "hash of the scriptPubKey", which doesn't have any requirement to change UTXO db format | 22:21 | |
| maaku | right so at minimum you'd have to upgrade the UTXO db on startup, including re-downloading blocks with unspent txns if pruning is enabled (which is likely to be deployed first...) | 22:21 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | Luke-Jr: I can understand the argument that people do silly things like reuse addresses, so keeping them from shooting themselves in the foot might make sense, even if that means UTXO size is ~doubled | 22:22 |
| maaku | Luke-Jr: at the cost of not being sufficient if you care about more than just the on output | 22:22 |
| bramc | bip 62 doesn't fix the problem that you can't know a utxo output id until after the transaction has been committed | 22:22 |
| maaku | bramc: for certain transactions it does | 22:23 |
| maaku | if you assume that the signers don't re-sign with a different nonce, of course | 22:23 |
| bramc | maaku, Let me rephrase, until after you know a valid signature for the transaction | 22:23 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | maaku: it's not unsolvable. for older transactions the normalized txid can only spend from tx version number above 3, etc. | 22:24 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, How do lighthouse transactions work? The web page doesn't go into much detail. | 22:24 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | but that entails some risk as well for some clients that don't check or download the transactions they're spending (blockchain.info?) | 22:25 |
| maaku | gmaxwell is gone. i angered him. but the search term you might want is "assurance contract" | 22:25 |
| maaku | hearn gave a good talk about it at the 2014 conference too, which hopefully is available online | 22:26 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, iirc they're basically just anyone can pay | 22:26 |
| maaku | GreenIsMyPepper: it's probably easier and better to just upgrade the db, if this feature is wanted bad enough to be deployed | 22:27 |
| maaku | i just wasn't sure if you had considered this issue | 22:27 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | maaku: Didn't consider blockchain pruning, just older txes, it's a good point. | 22:29 |
| bramc | I'm not quite following how SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY works | 22:32 |
| maaku | bramc: you dont sign input ids | 22:33 |
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| bramc | It seems like in lighthouse, somebody creates a transaction which sends the goal amount to a specific output, and then everybody else adds in bits to act as its inputs | 22:34 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | anyonecanpay means you don't sign any input other than your own | 22:34 |
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| bramc | So how are signatures of the other inputs included then? And how do they specify the output? | 22:35 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | they are included as part of the transaction, the other inputs are not SIGNED as part of your own input signature | 22:35 |
| bramc | But there has to be some signature of the input utxos somewhere to make their spending valid | 22:36 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, each input signs the outputs | 22:37 |
| phantomcircuit | or something to that effect | 22:37 |
| phantomcircuit | i cant 100% remember | 22:37 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | the signature is included as part of your own input. presume 100 inputs, one of them your own. you sign all outputs and your OWN input, all other inputs are not signed. your signature included as part of the transaction | 22:37 |
| bramc | It seems like the big advantage is that the pledgers can go offline before everything goes through, otherwise there's a lot of round and round with getting the transaction re-signed as you find that some of the inputs have changed | 22:38 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | bramc: this is the most accurate description out there (the stuff in the wiki has some small errors) Page 35: http://enetium.com/resources/Bitcoin.pdf | 22:39 |
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| bramc | Thanks GreenIsMyPepper that's a document I should read through in its own right | 22:40 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | np, yeah, the primary value of anyonecanpay in lighthouse afaik is asynchronous transaction creation and an inability to attack by just refusing to sign after tx construction | 22:42 |
| bramc | It seems like the initial bitcoin version was something satoshi had spent quite a bit of time on before releasing it | 22:43 |
| maaku | maybe | 22:43 |
| bramc | The only real hint I've seen to satoshi's identity is that john gilmore was just a liiitle too quick about giving a deep insight in response to the initial post. I suspect he knows who satoshi is. | 22:45 |
| maaku | fyi satoshi speculation is frowned upon here. no good comes of that. | 22:46 |
| bramc | Fair enough, that's all I have to say on the matter anyway | 22:46 |
| bramc | Not sure how I feel about sigtypes. My mental model has mostly had transactions including all inputs and outputs in a single signed entity. | 22:48 |
| bramc | sigtypes feels both overkill for what's actually used right now and underpowered for possible future extension | 22:49 |
| bramc | Anyway, I definitely need to read through the entire developer reference in detail, to make sure I've got everything, and because that's a lot easier than wading through the wiki. At least for me it is, because that's the way my brain works. | 22:51 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | Yeah, exotic sighash combinations are very rarely used. Some seem completely pointless until you think about it for a long time (sighash_none can turn a 2-of-2 into a 1-of-1) | 22:51 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | multisig | 22:51 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | after it hits the blockchain | 22:52 |
| bramc | If you throw in schnorr signatures there isn't clear utility even for multisig, just regular sig, hash preimage, and nlocktime | 22:52 |
| bramc | That first comma should probably have been a period. | 22:53 |
| bramc | Here's the opposite question: Is there any real downside to making everything ANYONECANPAY? | 22:55 |
| bramc | I mean, if you're starting over from scratch | 22:56 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | You may want to define the person paying. There is a minor side issue that the transaction fees are implicitly defined so by controlling both inputs and outputs you're implicitly writing the transaction fee as part of your signature. With anyonecanpay, the fee is not defined. | 22:58 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | By subtracting inputs minus outputs. | 22:59 |
| bramc | So how do you get the fee with anyonecanpay? | 22:59 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | When you sign an anyonecanpay transaction the transaction fee is not defined, it is effectively set by the last payer | 23:00 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | the last signer, i mean. | 23:00 |
| bramc | So if you overshoot lighthouse the extra all goes to a transaction fee? | 23:00 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | The miners get the extra fees | 23:01 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | miner (no s) | 23:01 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | So if total input is 1.1 BTC and output is 1 BTC, implicitly the transaction fee paid to the miner is 0.1 BTC | 23:02 |
| bramc | Yeah that I understand. That edge case of lighthouse seems suboptimal though | 23:02 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | TBH i don't know how lighthouse solves this. | 23:02 |
| hearn | lighthouse does not let you over-pledge | 23:03 |
| bramc | My suspicion is that it tries to keep everyone from overshooting. That of course has problems with a miner who messes with the transaction making everybody think it's short when it isn't | 23:03 |
| hearn | miners do not have access to the pledge data before the contract is finalised and broadcast | 23:04 |
| bramc | hearn, how does it enforce that? | 23:04 |
| hearn | enforce what? | 23:04 |
| bramc | A miner could participate in the transaction forming and mess with it | 23:04 |
| hearn | "mess with it" how? pledges are typically stored on a server that's co-operating with the project owner. random people cannot simply delete other peoples pedges | 23:05 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | Signatures are not exchanged between participants, only to the project owner? | 23:05 |
| hearn | yes | 23:05 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | So a zero-fee tx will never get broadcast? ok, makes sense. | 23:05 |
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| bramc | If you fix malleability properly ANYONECANPAY is a little weird because two different outputs could have nothing differentiating them | 23:11 |
| bramc | Of course, if you don't reuse keys that won't happen... | 23:11 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | Depends on what you mean by fixing malleability. For non-chained transactions you use a normalized transaction id by stripping scriptSig, you can't realistically spend from a different output. But yeah, if you strip all input sigs to fix malleability reusing keys can be disastrous. | 23:31 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | Sorry, I meant, strip all input txids to fix malleability to fix malleability reusing keys can lose money. | 23:33 |
| bramc | Depending on how it's implemented it might just result in the later transaction being declared invalid | 23:35 |
| bramc | Because it's redundant | 23:35 |
| bramc | Of course that could also mean that someone could permanently make a transaction non-committable on a reorg, which seems like a bad thing. | 23:36 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | Yes, using a normalized txid has situations which don't solve malleability in chained transactions and anyonecanpay transactions. Stripping out the input txid entirely can solve it, but entails risks. | 23:37 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | for users that reuse transactions, but should be acceptable for wallets which don't expose bitcoin addresses. | 23:38 |
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| bramc | In the case of one input and one output you might as well have both the input and the output be specified in a single descriptor | 23:47 |
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| bramc | Okay, here's my thought: The utxo should be specified based on a list of all the inputs and the outputs. The real question is how signatures of the inputs can be combined to validate a transaction | 23:52 |
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| bramc | So the simplest signature type is to give the whole utxo being signed. Next simplest is to sign its own input and the output and sign that. | 23:53 |
| bramc | So utxos referring to each other directly with no reference to signatures is still the 'right' way to do it, but there has to be some kind of extension mechanism for signatures, or at least something equivalent to supporting anyonecanpay | 23:55 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | Do you mean to use the index position in the utxo instead of txids? | 23:55 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | because then reorgs start to get very messy... | 23:56 |
| sipa | it means you're relying on blockchain functionality to define transaction validity | 23:57 |
| --- Log closed Sun Mar 01 00:00:08 2015 | ||
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