| --- Log opened Sun Mar 01 00:00:08 2015 | ||
| maaku | GreenIsMyPepper: for what its worth I think a strip-outpoints sighash mode will be way easier to get into core than upgrading the utxo db to store a normalized id | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| maaku | and accomplishes the same thing so long as you don't reuse addresses... | 00:03 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | I would prefer it as well. Users can be kept from screwing up by not using that sighash flag at all. | 00:04 |
| maaku | right it's not something that will accidentally happen | 00:06 |
| -!- Ody10 [~Odysseas@client-8-29.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:06 | |
| GreenIsMyPepper | The primary problem is whether malleability for multisig P2SH addresses which the user enters is a problem, if it is, then it might be nice to use a normalized id. | 00:07 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | spending from that multisig P2SH, but again, that requires a pretty complicated wallet anyway... | 00:07 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | However, I guess the problem is *really* about wallets not going to re-sign transactions automatically, so if it was defaulted to use a normalized txid, then it's far easier | 00:08 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | I presume if one directly connected to a miner, the miner may have sufficient incentive to fix the transaction id FOR you to collect the fee :]] | 00:09 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | But yeah, I suppose something like stripping the input entirely is more necessary for functionality, normalized is safety scissors and the question is how costly/painful the UTXO transition would be. | 00:12 |
| maaku | i don't see the safety aspect ... the use cases are non-overlapping | 00:13 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | Currently, the benefit would be current uses of bitcoin pay to address, they don't need to re-sign. Oh also, defaulting to normalized is safer when your alternative is to strip out the input (SIGHASH_NOINPUT) in case you receive another payment after that (can't control others making mistakes, only your own). | 00:16 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:18 | |
| -!- da2ce7_ [~da2ce7@opentransactions/dev/da2ce7] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 00:19 | |
| maaku | right, but my point is current users also don't need malleability protection | 00:19 |
| maaku | you need malleability protection for protocols that are not being done today -- and the implementation of those protocols will use the strip-outpoints flag | 00:21 |
| maaku | i wish it was possible to soft-fork checksig :\ | 00:21 |
| bramc | My point is, you ideally avoid the malleability problem entirely by having utxos be indexed without including their signatures, and anyonecanpay functionality can be built into that by having new signature types | 00:22 |
| sipa | it is; repurpose nop as checksig2 | 00:22 |
| GreenIsMyPepper | I don't disagree, however, people will do stupid things if there was only SIGHASH_NOINPUT. If you treat SIGHASH_NORMALIZED as a honeypot alone it has value, but that's being really cynical. | 00:23 |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:cdbd:393e:aeae:591] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:23 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 00:23 | |
| bramc | Of course, bitcoin doesn't actually work that way, and none of the altcoins have fixed that problem... | 00:23 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:24 | |
| maaku | sipa: that was an engineers lamentation, the NOP space being limited and such | 00:26 |
| sipa | right, sure | 00:26 |
| bramc | Also by making it so that it's a signature extension, it's then possible to make it so that some of the signatures are for everything and some are for their own inputs which might add some flexibility | 00:27 |
| bramc | Also doesn't add anything to the overall size in the end | 00:28 |
| maaku | hrm.. actually you could avoid the checksig{3,4,5,5,6...} problem by having the checksig2 take a sighash mask. then checksig2 could be soft-fork upgradeable... | 00:32 |
| fluffypony | oh forgot to mention earlier this week, for andytoshi and adam3us in particular, MRL has a new research bulletin out that covers traceability attacks, temporal associations when selecting outputs to mix with, and an association by use attack: https://lab.getmonero.org/pubs/MRL-0004.pdf | 00:32 |
| fluffypony | recommendations are made for fixing the traceability attacks (basically enforce global minimum mixin, and provide a path for unmixable outputs / dust to eventually be extracted) | 00:33 |
| fluffypony | and an idea for reducing association by use attacks | 00:33 |
| fluffypony | but temporal associations are trickier, and it comes down to choosing a reasonable distribution for selecting outputs to mix with (and there's not really enough data to make that determination) | 00:34 |
| Luke-Jr | maaku: no need for a mask I think, just have it behave as OP_NOP for any unrecognised SIGHASH flag | 00:36 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 00:36 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:37 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:39 | |
| maaku | Luke-Jr: then it's trivial to steal coins | 00:41 |
| maaku | a sighash is in the signature and fully malleable | 00:42 |
| Luke-Jr | maaku: uh, if you use an unrecognised SIGHASH flag.. | 00:42 |
| Luke-Jr | isn't it in the key? | 00:42 |
| maaku | no, the sig | 00:42 |
| maaku | that's what i'm saying, put a mask in the key | 00:42 |
| maaku | so you constrain what can be malleated | 00:42 |
| Luke-Jr | hm | 00:43 |
| Luke-Jr | if we don't do that, we could add key recovery to the new checksig. or would that be too slow? | 00:44 |
| sipa | only slightly slower | 00:45 |
| Luke-Jr | I guess we still can even with a mask, just the data would be only a mask | 00:45 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 00:46 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf77a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 00:46 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf77a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:46 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:47 | |
| -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 00:54 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf77a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 00:56 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf77a0.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 00:56 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:04 | |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:04 | |
| -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:05 | |
| * andy-logbot is logging | 01:05 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 01:05 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 01:06 | |
| -!- moa [~moa@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 01:09 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:12 | |
| -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:14 | |
| -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:15 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 01:22 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:23 | |
| -!- Ody10 [~Odysseas@client-8-29.eduroam.oxuni.org.uk] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 01:24 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:28 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host] | 01:28 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:28 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 01:33 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:34 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:37 | |
| -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:41 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:42 | |
| -!- brisque [~brisque@unaffiliated/brisque] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:44 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 01:44 | |
| brisque | http://democracyos.org/ | 01:44 |
| yoleaux | 9 Oct 2014 15:41Z <kanzure> brisque: is there a document that has a list of inaccuracies in that unmentionable book? | 01:45 |
| brisque | "Trust is deeply built into DemocracyOS using decentralized authority to certify every single decision made." | 01:45 |
| -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 01:45 | |
| brisque | kanzure: sure, lots of them are already on the wiki. | 01:46 |
| fluffypony | "DemocracyOS is coded entirely in javascript." | 01:50 |
| * fluffypony twitches | 01:51 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:cdbd:393e:aeae:591] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 01:56 | |
| brisque | if you make some assumptions about how they have designed the thing (it's not described), one gets the impression that "blockchain" is being used as a buzz word without consideration for what it actually affords a system that really does need authentication and sybil resistance. | 01:56 |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:cdbd:393e:aeae:591] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:58 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf77a0.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 01:58 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-163-153.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 01:58 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf77a0.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:59 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-163-153.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 01:59 | |
| adlai | s/affords/costs/? | 02:00 |
| fluffypony | adlai: "affords" in the sense of "adds to" or "supplies" | 02:03 |
| -!- Rynomster [~quassel@unaffiliated/rynomster] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 02:04 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 02:13 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@86-41-32-183-dynamic.b-ras2.dbn.dublin.eircom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:13 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:13 | |
| brisque | well the blockchain is quite interesting in that you have something with very good brand power (it's the first distributed consensus) with almost no applicability outside of canonical ordering. it's slow, awkward and ridiculously expensive, so you'd better have a very good rationality for throwing it into a design. as far as difficulty of justifiability goes, a block chain is well up there with shag carpet. | 02:15 |
| nsh | but it really holds the room together | 02:15 |
| Eliel | nsh: that it does :P | 02:16 |
| -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@6d482698.ftth.concepts.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:17 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:21 | |
| sipa | brisque: plus it really only works with a sufficiently strong incentive structure | 02:23 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 02:24 | |
| sipa | making it hard to use for things that don't have any value to distribute to cooperating nodes | 02:24 |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:24 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:25 | |
| brisque | sipa: I've seen that justified as "well people run debian mirrors with no incentive", but I think that's missing the point that bitcoin is on a whole different scale of resistance heating. if you're at the risk of someone overtaking your network at ease with EC2, then it's probably not realistic to call it a distributed consensus. | 02:27 |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:28 | |
| sipa | brisque: well, cost and reward | 02:28 |
| sipa | many distributed network are pretty easy to attack for a well-funded entity, but with very little gain from doing so | 02:28 |
| sipa | if the gain is faking monetary transactions, that's very different | 02:29 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:32 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:36 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 02:49 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:59 | |
| -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 03:06 | |
| brisque | sipa: that's a good way of putting it, I've never really thought of bitcoin as incentivising malice before. | 03:07 |
| -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:07 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@86-41-32-183-dynamic.b-ras2.dbn.dublin.eircom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 03:08 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@95.83.254.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:08 | |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@126.Red-83-32-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:16 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 03:25 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:26 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:27 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 03:27 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:27 | |
| Taek | sipa: one reason you might want to combine multiple outputs under 1 signature is donation addresses | 03:28 |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 03:30 | |
| -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:30 | |
| sipa | Taek: help | 03:33 |
| Taek | ? | 03:33 |
| sipa | i think we should get rid of donation addresses | 03:33 |
| sipa | they;re terrible for privacy | 03:34 |
| Taek | for the sender too? | 03:34 |
| brisque | definitely. | 03:34 |
| sipa | for every single bitcoin user | 03:34 |
| sipa | i think bitcoin as it's used today is pretty much unusable as a monetary system due its terrible privacy because of this | 03:35 |
| Taek | hmm. I can't say I've thought about it enough to disagree competently | 03:36 |
| sipa | i wonder how people would feel if their bank account's value was public | 03:36 |
| -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uelnblcwccxbcyqj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 03:36 | |
| cbeams | sipa: I've often thought of setting up a simple http service that accepts a GET request and responds with a new HD-generated address. | 03:37 |
| brisque | sipa: I think the only reason there's not more attention given to bitcoin privacy is that it's not particularly tangible. the term is "losing" privacy, but there's not an immediate impact most of the time compared with say, losing your money. | 03:38 |
| cbeams | so you'd have 'donation URLs' vs. donation addresses | 03:38 |
| brisque | cbeams: electrum supports that, not that you'd know. | 03:38 |
| sipa | cbeams: payment protocol, please | 03:38 |
| sipa | this exists | 03:38 |
| sipa | brisque: yup | 03:40 |
| cbeams | I guess the question, then, is why aren't people using what already exists? | 03:40 |
| brisque | like I said, there's no immediate tangible impact. | 03:40 |
| Taek | It's the same reason people don't use encryption when they email each other: their tools don't enable it automatically. | 03:41 |
| brisque | when you reuse an address a tentacle doesn't reach through your window and grab you out of your chair, therefor it's perfectly fine. stop worrying. | 03:41 |
| sipa | cbeams: because the idea of account==address is too appealing | 03:43 |
| sipa | it's a mental model people can grasp | 03:43 |
| cbeams | agree, but it seems to me that there isn't a convenient alternative even for those who *are* privacy minded. | 03:43 |
| sipa | and it's transparent due to several websites | 03:43 |
| cbeams | modify what I wrote above regarding a simple http service as "a simple payment-protocol-based http service" | 03:44 |
| cbeams | not tied to electrum necessarily, | 03:44 |
| sipa | cbeams: it has problems, because the server can steal your coins | 03:44 |
| cbeams | just something standalone that people could download and run, and then advertise a url for | 03:44 |
| sipa | (by giving out its own addresses, rather than the users) | 03:45 |
| Eliel | no tangible impact plus it's more work to do it properly. | 03:45 |
| sipa | it's fixable | 03:45 |
| sipa | but few people seem to care | 03:45 |
| Eliel | the first part wouldn't matter too much if it was easy to do it properly :) | 03:45 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 03:46 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:47 | |
| cbeams | sipa: regarding the server giving out its own addresses, I don't see how this is any more of a risk than a MITM modifying a static donation address. | 03:48 |
| sipa | cbeams: indeed, but it's under the user's control | 03:48 |
| cbeams | i.e. if the assumption is that everyone runs his own donation address service, and everyone trusts his own server, then risk is pretty well contained, no? | 03:49 |
| sipa | MitM seems less of a problem, because nobody expects it to solve the problem | 03:49 |
| fluffypony | cbeams: why not just use OpenAlias? | 03:49 |
| sipa | (like: if i email you my address, people will trust that email delives the mail corrects) | 03:49 |
| cbeams | first I've heard of it. | 03:49 |
| fluffypony | Electrum 2.0 has an OpenAlias plugin | 03:49 |
| fluffypony | openalias.org | 03:49 |
| -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 03:49 | |
| sipa | fluffypony: doesn't seem to solve anything imho | 03:50 |
| sipa | your address is still public? | 03:50 |
| fluffypony | sipa: yes, which doesn't matter for Monero because of the dual-key stealth addresses, but sure, more of a concern with Bitcoin | 03:51 |
| brisque | sipa: for monero in particular that's not a problem, their addresses are alike "stealth" addresses. | 03:51 |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@95.83.254.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 03:51 | |
| sipa | i see | 03:51 |
| fluffypony | until stealth addresses become popular in BTC | 03:51 |
| sipa | i really dislike stealth addresss | 03:51 |
| fluffypony | oh interesting - may I ask why? | 03:51 |
| sipa | they're a distraction that avoids building a real solution | 03:51 |
| sipa | (which is out of band negotiation of transactions) | 03:52 |
| sipa | which has so many extra advantages (better privacy, messaging, atomic refunds, no need to scan the blockchain for incoming transactions, ...) | 03:52 |
| fluffypony | yeah we've been playing around with some ideas for exactly that | 03:53 |
| fluffypony | but very far away | 03:53 |
| brisque | fluffypony: scaling reusable addresses is a terrible problem, if nothing else. | 03:53 |
| Eliel | it'd probably be doable to create a javascript module that takes a public key, makes a random number for each donation and then uses a similar derivation to BIP32 to make a new address for each donator. However, you'd either need to store all the random numbers somewhere or generate them from a sequence... both are a bit hairy with just javascript. | 03:53 |
| sipa | stealth addresses are the correct solution for a small subset of problems | 03:53 |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has quit [] | 03:53 | |
| sipa | but they're also a more convenient solution for many problems that can be solved in a much better way | 03:54 |
| -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 03:54 | |
| sipa | apart from the fact that no deployed solution exists fro them | 03:54 |
| brisque | Eliel: I've thought of that before, but nothing stops people from just slurping the MPK and scanning for the addresses themselves. there's no additional privacy gained by it. | 03:54 |
| fluffypony | Eliel: if they're deterministic then an attacker can determine them | 03:54 |
| fluffypony | yeah what brisque said | 03:54 |
| Eliel | ah yes, sequence is a no go then | 03:54 |
| fluffypony | if you're trying to avoid address reuse then you may as well publish a deterministic pubkey | 03:55 |
| Eliel | has to be random numbers | 03:55 |
| sipa | fluffypony: that doesn't solve the privacy problem | 03:55 |
| fluffypony | but if it's for privacy then deterministic is a no-go | 03:55 |
| fluffypony | sipa: yep ^^ | 03:55 |
| sipa | avoiding address reuse is not the goal, it's a means | 03:55 |
| fluffypony | yeah | 03:55 |
| brisque | fluffypony: publishing a MPK is pretty scary in terms of non hardened derivitation, it means that information leaks become critical flaws, or at the very least it enables people to be spear phished by leveraging their misunderstanding of deterministic wallets. | 03:56 |
| sipa | yup | 03:56 |
| fluffypony | yup, I was merely following the train of thought from Eliel's idea :) | 03:57 |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@95.83.254.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:00 | |
| Eliel | being able to do this properly kind of really calls for a secure distributed messaging system. | 04:01 |
| sipa | why? there is no need for anything distributed here | 04:01 |
| sipa | transaction and key negotiation is a private business between sender and receiver | 04:02 |
| sipa | tcp/ip works fine | 04:02 |
| sipa | use tor if you need better privacy | 04:02 |
| Eliel | mostly because it's enough work to set up a secure (as in, no third party able to read your stuff) messaging system that most don't bother | 04:02 |
| brisque | I'm not sure peer to peer privacy is a huge problem at this point in time, it's completely overwhelmed by other privacy flaws. maybe once those are on their way to being solved we can care about more communication magic. | 04:04 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:05 | |
| Eliel | basically, if we had such a system, it could be integrated into a bitcoin wallet and you could then publish a single identifier (public key) and others could send coins by generating a new address with it on the fly and sending you the private key. You could then combine the private keys to send the coins onward. | 04:06 |
| Eliel | but since you don't have a messaging system you can trust to just work, that's not feasible. | 04:07 |
| sipa | we have a messaging system | 04:08 |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@95.83.254.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 04:08 | |
| sipa | it's called tcp/ip | 04:08 |
| brisque | if you're attempting to donate to someone to pay an invoice, you already have HTTP to do that | 04:08 |
| maaku | Eliel: you're solving this on the wrong layer | 04:08 |
| Eliel | sipa: tcp/ip lacks the key feature of what I just described. | 04:09 |
| sipa | which is? | 04:09 |
| Eliel | sipa: if the recipient is not online, communication just fails. | 04:10 |
| fluffypony | Eliel: Monero does what you're describing but completely statically without requiring you or the sender to be online - a Monero address is two pubkeys serialised, to send a tx you compute a "destination" for outputs based on those two keys + some random data, so where an output goes to is not an address | 04:10 |
| sipa | Eliel: meh | 04:11 |
| sipa | Eliel: email works too without people being online the whole time | 04:11 |
| Eliel | sipa: it works, most of the time, yes. But it's fragile and for most people there's a third party with access to their email. | 04:13 |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@95.83.254.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:13 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:14 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 04:14 | |
| sipa | Eliel: that can be solved by encryption | 04:15 |
| sipa | Eliel: have an address that's a url + encryption key | 04:15 |
| Eliel | and now you have a system that's way too complex to setup for it to get much use. | 04:15 |
| sipa | gmail doesn't require setup, does it? | 04:17 |
| sipa | nothing that people can't handle | 04:17 |
| Eliel | email itself, no. Actually using the encrypted messages, especially if you want it automated, hell yes. | 04:17 |
| sipa | i don't understand | 04:17 |
| sipa | it's exactly like bitcoin addresses today | 04:18 |
| sipa | except the communication doesn't go over the blockchain, but using a mailbox-type service | 04:18 |
| sipa | the sender creates an encrypted message with a fully-signed but unpublished transaction, sends it to the mailbox service | 04:19 |
| sipa | the receiver's client fetches the message, decrypts it, validates it, and broadcasts it | 04:19 |
| sipa | done | 04:19 |
| sipa | the message contains both the transaction as the nonce used to generate the destination key | 04:19 |
| sipa | so it's impossible for the transaction to arrive at the receiver without him knowing the nonce to spend the coins | 04:20 |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:20 | |
| Eliel | the problem is, both the sender and receiver would need to have already setup their bitcoin wallets with their email. Just putting up a single bitcoin address as a donation address is still much easier and just works. | 04:22 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 04:22 | |
| sipa | i don't mean using actual email | 04:22 |
| sipa | just an email like system | 04:23 |
| sipa | integrated in wallet software | 04:23 |
| sipa | and i don't care that it just works | 04:23 |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:23 | |
| sipa | paypal also just works | 04:23 |
| Eliel | ok, if you create a new kind of service for just bitcoin-wallet messaging, you could potentially make it easy enough that it does not rely on the donation sender having to do any setup. | 04:25 |
| -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:25 | |
| Eliel | that'd at least make it sensible for donation receiver to set it up in a privacy enhancing way | 04:26 |
| brisque | making some sort of communication network on top of bitcoins sounds like a horrible idea, frankly. stealth addresses are more preferable than that. | 04:26 |
| Eliel | ... but this sounds just like payment protocol :P | 04:26 |
| sipa | Eliel: it is the payment protocol | 04:26 |
| Luke-Jr | brisque: uh, there's already a communication network | 04:27 |
| Luke-Jr | otherwise bitcoin wouldn't work | 04:27 |
| sipa | with an extension | 04:27 |
| sipa | (to support encryption) | 04:27 |
| -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:27 | |
| brisque | Luke-Jr: not entirely what I meant. "communication" being anything other than flooding transactions and blocks. | 04:28 |
| Luke-Jr | brisque: well, that's still better than stealth addresses at least IMO | 04:28 |
| Luke-Jr | probably wouldn't be that hard either - you could even have nodes pay an intermediary peer to relay if they can't connect directly | 04:29 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:30 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 04:30 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:30 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:30 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:30 | |
| -!- adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 04:30 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:31 | |
| brisque | Luke-Jr: that would result in bitcoin just being people's go-to flood network for everything under the sun, you can't do any sort of targeted routing within the current design (and I don't think you'd want to). an intermediary fee wouldn't work just due to dust and privacy. | 04:35 |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:36 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:cdbd:393e:aeae:591] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 04:38 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:40 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 04:42 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:42 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:42 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 04:47 | |
| -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 04:49 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@95.83.254.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 05:11 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@net-2-38-211-181.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:18 | |
| -!- erasmosp_ [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:20 | |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@net-2-38-211-181.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 05:23 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] | 05:28 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:28 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:32 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 05:32 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:32 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:33 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf77a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:38 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf77a0.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 05:41 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:43 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 05:48 | |
| -!- instagibbs [60ff5d39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.255.93.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 05:48 | |
| instagibbs | Flood network should really not be touched in favor of extra-consensus matters, I think most would agree | 05:52 |
| brisque | if nothing else you quickly run into flooding problems. if you rate limit (like free transactions today) you make a trivial to jam and thus totally unreliable way of getting messages around. you could add some hashcash into the mix, but you get back to the core problem of hashcash where any level of difficulty that would hinder an attacker makes it unusable for an end user. | 05:55 |
| sipa | indeed | 05:56 |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:01 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:02 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-d9bf77a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 06:04 | |
| -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:06 | |
| -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 06:06 | |
| instagibbs | centralization ftw! | 06:07 |
| fluffypony | nah, just blockchain all the things | 06:07 |
| instagibbs | I saw electrum people are working on(?) some sort of messaging layer using SMTP | 06:08 |
| -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:08 | |
| fluffypony | nah it's more like payment protocol | 06:08 |
| instagibbs | only saw some slides, and unfortunately they're passing around MPKs it appears | 06:08 |
| fluffypony | but over email | 06:09 |
| fluffypony | I have an intense dislike for email as a mechanism | 06:09 |
| brisque | that's unpleasant as hell. | 06:09 |
| instagibbs | fluffypony: why? | 06:10 |
| fluffypony | instagibbs: I find it unreliable | 06:10 |
| brisque | instagibbs: you've got to admit, it hasn't aged particularly well. | 06:11 |
| instagibbs | Right, but I'm wary of re-creating wheels | 06:11 |
| fluffypony | emails can be silently dropped for any number of reasons, and even the most well-learned antispam system has false positives | 06:11 |
| brisque | reference for instagibbs "slides" reference. https://electrum.org/bitcoinaliases.pdf | 06:12 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:16 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:17 | |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 06:17 | |
| brisque | I assume in that model the server has to have an address indexed full node to do lookups against, otherwise an attacker can do a trivial denial of service attack where they request past the victim's address lookup cap limit, but never send anything to the addresses. | 06:18 |
| -!- ceedz [~eric@187.139.146.65] has quit [Quit: ceedz] | 06:20 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:21 | |
| brisque | the idea is a little uncomfortable anyway, despite it's name a MPK really is quite private material. a compromise of that server would both nullify any gain given by not reusing address, and it would also provide name to MPK maps. in fact it's probably worse than just reusing addresses, leaking a MPK is a disaster. | 06:21 |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:21 | |
| sipa | at least the privacy leak is restricted to the server by default (assuming no worse leak) | 06:22 |
| sipa | as opposed to to the entire world, in case of reusing addresses | 06:22 |
| sipa | not disagreeing with you, though | 06:23 |
| kanzure | "i guess you could say it's sort of a dark optimism" | 06:25 |
| -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:27 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 06:31 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:33 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:443c:ddbe:5bf5:b260] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:44 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:44 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 06:49 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:52 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 06:56 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 06:56 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 06:57 | |
| -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:57 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 06:59 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:04 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 07:04 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:04 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:12 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 07:15 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:16 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:23 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@95.83.254.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:26 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:28 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:28 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:28 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:35 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:36 | |
| -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/profreid] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:38 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:39 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:39 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:41 | |
| -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:42 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:42 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 07:45 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 07:50 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 07:51 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 08:04 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:04 | |
| -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:09 | |
| -!- HaltingState [~HaltingSt@unaffiliated/haltingstate] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:16 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 08:48 | |
| -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 08:51 | |
| -!- coinrookie [~c0inr00ki@c-68-53-21-189.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 08:59 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:02 | |
| -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-50-189-4-61.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:05 | |
| -!- mpmcsweeney [~mpmcsween@c-50-189-4-61.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] | 09:05 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:11 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 09:15 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dzczgkytvrywdzvs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:19 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 09:23 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:26 | |
| -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:39 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 09:40 | |
| -!- skittylx- [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 09:40 | |
| -!- skittylx- [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 09:41 | |
| -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@188.25.36.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 09:44 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:47 | |
| -!- brisque [~brisque@unaffiliated/brisque] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"] | 09:58 | |
| -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@82.76.120.35] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:00 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 10:00 | |
| -!- Grishnakh [~grishnakh@dsl-espbrasgw1-50dfb6-218.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:01 | |
| -!- instagibbs [60ff5d39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.255.93.57] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | 10:03 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 10:11 | |
| -!- grau [~grau@37.143.74.116] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:24 | |
| -!- grau [~grau@37.143.74.116] has quit [Client Quit] | 10:24 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:30 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Changing host] | 10:30 | |
| -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:30 | |
| -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:32 | |
| -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 10:32 | |
| -!- amincd [1710a2c6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.23.16.162.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 10:33 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:37 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:51 | |
| -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 10:51 | |
| -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@82.76.120.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 10:56 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:56 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@95.83.254.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 10:57 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 10:58 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:59 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:00 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 11:00 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:00 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 11:01 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:01 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@128.211.171.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:03 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@128.211.171.2] has quit [Changing host] | 11:03 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:03 | |
| -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-013-176.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 11:03 | |
| -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@82.76.120.35] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:12 | |
| -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-013-176.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:14 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 11:15 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:15 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:17 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:27 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 11:31 | |
| -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] | 11:33 | |
| -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:34 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:34 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:34 | |
| -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 11:38 | |
| -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:38 | |
| -!- lnr [~lnr@aim.engr.arizona.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:46 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:48 | |
| -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:50 | |
| -!- agorist000 [~snizysnaz@68-114-156-198.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:50 | |
| -!- agorist000 [~snizysnaz@68-114-156-198.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] | 11:50 | |
| -!- agorist000 [~snizysnaz@unaffiliated/agorist000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:50 | |
| -!- agorist000 [~snizysnaz@unaffiliated/agorist000] has quit [Client Quit] | 11:50 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 11:52 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 11:59 | |
| -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 12:06 | |
| -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:10 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 12:15 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:16 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] | 12:17 | |
| -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:28 | |
| -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-18-107-164.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 12:28 | |
| -!- lnr [~lnr@aim.engr.arizona.edu] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 12:32 | |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.13.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 12:33 | |
| -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] | 12:36 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:42 | |
| -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@126.Red-83-32-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] | 12:44 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 12:45 | |
| bramc | I wonder about parsimony in signing library APIs. You should be able to squeeze out a few bytes by making the API 'Is this a valid signature of this thing?' instead of 'what is this a signature of?'. Some for the corresponding public key. | 12:46 |
| -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.13.193] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 12:48 | |
| bramc | So the verify function takes a target signature, a public key, and a purported signature, and it returns True or False based on whether that signature is valid for that public key and target. | 12:50 |
| bramc | But maybe some of this doesn't save any bytes. Or is done that way already. I'll have to work through the details eventually. | 12:50 |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 13:01 | |
| -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 13:01 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 13:02 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:02 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 13:08 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:08 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:16 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 13:20 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 13:20 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:20 | |
| -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 13:29 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:32 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] | 13:32 | |
| -!- amincd [1710a2c6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.23.16.162.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:40 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 13:44 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 13:44 | |
| -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 13:53 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 13:56 | |
| -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dzczgkytvrywdzvs] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 14:00 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:03 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has quit [Client Quit] | 14:06 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:12 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 14:12 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:14 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 14:15 | |
| -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-013-176.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 14:17 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 14:19 | |
| -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/profreid] has quit [Quit: Profreid] | 14:21 | |
| -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-013-176.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:22 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:23 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has quit [Client Quit] | 14:23 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:29 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:31 | |
| -!- moa [~moa@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:34 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 14:41 | |
| ebfull | so i've been way out of the loop... what's going on with SNARKs? any cool advancements or libraries? | 14:43 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:46 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:46 | |
| justanotheruser | ebfull: nothing new afaik. theres always been this https://github.com/scipr-lab/libsnark | 14:48 |
| -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:48 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 14:49 | |
| -!- erasmosp_ [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:54 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 14:57 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:05 | |
| -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 15:07 | |
| -!- grau [~grau@37.143.74.116] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:08 | |
| -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:08 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:08 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:11 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:30 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 15:33 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:38 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 15:43 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:47 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 15:49 | |
| -!- jdvs [~John@unaffiliated/jdvs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:49 | |
| -!- jdvs [~John@unaffiliated/jdvs] has quit [Quit: leaving] | 15:54 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 15:58 | |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 15:59 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:06 | |
| bramc | ebfull, snarks is quite an amazing thing but so far even with its amazingness appears to be quite impractical. | 16:07 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:08 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:09 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 16:11 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 16:14 | |
| -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 16:17 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 16:18 | |
| -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 16:21 | |
| -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:21 | |
| -!- prodatalab_ is now known as prodatalab | 16:24 | |
| amiller | bramc, i dunno that seems like an awful summary to me | 16:27 |
| amiller | ebfull, here's a short run down.... microsoft research and the scipr team keep going neck and neck with new systems | 16:28 |
| amiller | microsoft research made a very practical system called gepetto, that has two layers of recursion (snarks proofs that another snark proof is valid, which can give better efficiency but im at a loss for a simple metaphor to explain why) https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/976.pdf | 16:29 |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:30 | |
| bramc | amiller, I have yet to see a proposal for doing something in the real world with snarks which I actually believe can function | 16:30 |
| amiller | the scipr team has found a set of parameters that allow for aribtrary layers of snark recursion, which is theoretically great but a) a bit slower than gepetto, b) not a good enough security level, so this is a proof-of-feasilbiyt more than anything else https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/595 | 16:31 |
| amiller | the scipr team has announced a paper (acepted to oakland15, but draft isnt anywhere online yet i guess) about a good way to do the trusted setup as amultiparty computation with a large number of parties http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2015/program.html | 16:32 |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 16:33 | |
| amiller | some guy made a small language for writing snark systems thats an alternative to the pinocchio c-to-circuits compiler and i guess is better, i haven't looked carefully http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.encryption.general/22047 https://github.com/jancarlsson/snarkfront | 16:36 |
| amiller | i updated my nonoutsourceable puzzle paper with more explanation of a concrete multi-tier reward system, there's an implementation using libsnark and pincochio (libsnark was better) but that's the same as the previous version http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable.pdf | 16:39 |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:39 | |
| amiller | gmaxwell says he implemented a snark circuit that can be used with bitcoin today, it proves that the preimage of some hash is the solution to a bunch of a sudoku puzzles or something | 16:40 |
| amiller | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Zero_Knowledge_Contingent_Payment#Zero_knowledge_proof_to_binding | 16:41 |
| -!- cornus_ammonis [~Cornus@pool-173-73-119-83.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:42 | |
| -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-175-213.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 35.0.1/20150122214805]] | 16:43 | |
| amiller | finally, zerocash is practical and is being actively developed | 16:44 |
| -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-175-213.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:44 | |
| amiller | ok, that's a short "the past three months in SNARKs" | 16:44 |
| ebfull | thanks amiller :) | 16:53 |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 16:56 | |
| -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 16:58 | |
| bramc | Whether zerocash is practical remains to be seen | 17:00 |
| bramc | Somewhat off topic: It turns out that the failing of a black market backed by bitcoin is the accumulation of databases of shipping addresses: http://aeon.co/magazine/technology/on-the-high-seas-of-the-hidden-internet/ | 17:05 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:08 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:10 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 17:15 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 17:17 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:18 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:26 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 17:29 | |
| -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:32 | |
| -!- moa [~moa@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 17:33 | |
| -!- AnxiousGarlic [~Spider@130.225.244.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 17:54 | |
| -!- AnxiousGarlic [~Spider@130.225.244.206] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] | 17:54 | |
| -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@6d482698.ftth.concepts.nl] has quit [] | 18:03 | |
| -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 18:03 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 18:05 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:05 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 18:06 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:12 | |
| andytoshi | adam3us1: so a cool way to think about about your ring signature scheme is to consider the hashes as DL-labelled vertices on a connected directed graph with an edge between A->B whenever B is a hash of some function of A. then the signing algo is: (1) pick a vertex V and compute its hash; (2) for each edge V->W where V has had its hash computed, compute W. if W is already computed, you have to know | 18:12 |
| andytoshi | its discrete log else you lose | 18:12 |
| andytoshi | (i hope that makes sense serialized to text). in the sig scheme as described your graph is always just a single hamilton cycle | 18:12 |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 18:12 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:13 | |
| andytoshi | we can define an "admissible DL set" as one where if you know all the DLs in the set, you can do the signing algo, and the result is a ring signature which proves you know an admissible DL set but hides which one | 18:13 |
| andytoshi | this leads to the question (which i am just investigating now in the last 5 minutes), what if you don't just do hamilton cycles? if we do weirdly shaped graphs how creative can we make the admissible sets? | 18:14 |
| andytoshi | (for a hamilton cycle, each DL by itself constitutes an admissible set, i.e. you need to know one DL to compute the signature) | 18:14 |
| -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@dslb-092-076-000-051.092.076.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:16 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 18:17 | |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:17 | |
| -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.62] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:18 | |
| -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:18 | |
| -!- flower_ [~user@202.44.238.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 18:20 | |
| -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-013-176.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 18:20 | |
| bramc | Well this is an interesting result: In my pos system, if one attacker tries to do withholding attacks they might be able to get favorable forks a little more often from it, but if two attackers do withholding attacks the amount they screw each other from lack of cooperation is greater than the amount they can get ahead from it | 18:20 |
| andytoshi | oops, the algo is not actually that simple. each vertex actually has four states "c_i (un)computed" × "s_i (un)computed", and the algo is: for each edge A->B, if A is "c_i uncomputed" set it to "c_i computed"; then if A is "s_i uncomputed" set B "c_i computed" (if it is already, you need to know B's DL else you fail), else if A is "s_i computed" and B "c_i computed" (if it already is, you fail) | 18:23 |
| andytoshi | i think, but unsure, what this means is: every irreducible cycle requires you to know an arbitrary DL on the cycle; additionally every vertex with in-degree N requires you to know an arbitrary (N-1) of the N DL's corresponding to its inputs | 18:26 |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 18:32 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:32 | |
| andytoshi | above i meant "you need to know A's DL else you fail", not B's DL; also the last "and" should be "set" | 18:37 |
| -!- xenog [~xeno@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 18:38 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:38 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08ae67.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 18:41 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 18:51 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:51 | |
| -!- dc17523be3 [~unknown@193.138.219.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 18:51 | |
| -!- dc17523be3 [~unknown@193.138.219.233] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:52 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@89.248.174.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 18:55 | |
| -!- p15_ [~p15@124.64.96.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 18:57 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-163-153.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 19:01 | |
| -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-163-153.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:02 | |
| -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 19:03 | |
| andytoshi | i am assuming each hash is H(L, m, y_i^{s_i} g^{c_i}) where i runs through all the input nodes (so you get a bunch of simultaneous equations), not sure that doing anything else is worth how much harder it makes this to analyze | 19:04 |
| -!- gmaxwell [greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:06 | |
| -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:16 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 19:19 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:20 | |
| -!- bigpup3 [~bigpuppy@pool-173-66-42-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:22 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@2601:9:4680:dd0:d48a:363e:5916:7ebb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 19:22 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:24 | |
| -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [] | 19:25 | |
| -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-227-3.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:25 | |
| -!- bigpup3 [~bigpuppy@pool-173-66-42-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 19:25 | |
| -!- bigpup3 [~bigpuppy@pool-173-66-42-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:26 | |
| -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 19:27 | |
| -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@2601:9:4680:dd0:7c46:e371:e28e:f441] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:33 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 19:50 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:51 | |
| -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 19:52 | |
| -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] | 19:54 | |
| bramc | Writing a better sim than I had before, it turns out that the attacker's bonus from pooling in the simple case was worse than I thought | 19:56 |
| bramc | That said, using nth best helps a lot | 19:56 |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 20:03 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjenyklceftbsion] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:05 | |
| -!- brisque [~brisque@unaffiliated/brisque] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:12 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:14 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 20:16 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:17 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 20:19 | |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:19 | |
| -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] | 20:19 | |
| -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 20:23 | |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:443c:ddbe:5bf5:b260] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 20:48 | |
| -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] | 20:52 | |
| -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:52 | |
| -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:54 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 20:54 | |
| -!- grau [~grau@37.143.74.116] has quit [] | 20:55 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 20:58 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 21:02 | |
| -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-108-51-197-41.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:03 | |
| -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:10 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:10 | |
| -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@191.101.1.104] has quit [Excess Flood] | 21:13 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:15 | |
| -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@191.101.1.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:17 | |
| -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052091088.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 21:19 | |
| bramc | argh | 21:22 |
| -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:25 | |
| bramc | Making very pessimistic assumptions about an attacker's other possibilities, an attacker gets a lot more pooling advantage than I'd like | 21:28 |
| -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:443c:ddbe:5bf5:b260] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 21:47 | |
| bramc | I should throw in the requirement that the nth best has to be endorsed by all the ones below it. That makes the attacks work a lot less. | 21:49 |
| bramc | Or maybe that the nth best has to list the ones below it. Need to work this out. | 21:53 |
| -!- skittylx [~skittylx@ks203868.kimsufi.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] | 21:56 | |
| bramc | Okay even the listing ones below it thing works well, but, *sigh*, doing better than that creates massive headaches for the protocol. | 21:57 |
| -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Later.] | 22:01 | |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 22:04 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 22:06 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:07 | |
| -!- p15_ [~p15@198.50.160.97.static-ca.cryptolayer.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:08 | |
| -!- p15 [~p15@89.248.174.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 22:10 | |
| -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjenyklceftbsion] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 22:13 | |
| -!- hktud0 [ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 22:15 | |
| -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:17 | |
| bramc | The short of it is that setting n to 2 or 3 works best, and it's critically important that the nth best sign off on the ones below it. Things work better if the lower ones have to sign off on the higher ones as well, but I'll have to think about that some more, it creates awful edge cases when things don't get completed properly | 22:18 |
| bramc | Grumble grumble. At least I've got things working somewhat acceptably. My n is either going to be 2 or 3, I'm fairly sure of that now. | 22:22 |
| brisque | what happens if they refuse to "endorse"? | 22:23 |
| -!- moa [~moa@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:28 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 22:31 | |
| -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:32 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 22:33 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:34 | |
| -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 22:35 | |
| bramc | brisque, then the next one lower will endorse and they won't get their share of the mining reward | 22:37 |
| bramc | At least, that's the way it is in the case where the nth best has to list the ones better than it. In the case where there's mutual interconnected endorsement it gets a lot more complicated and the failure modes are much more of a headache. | 22:38 |
| -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@home-tomis2.rdsct.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:41 | |
| bramc | With full mutual endorsement required even n=2 works fairly well. That may turn out to be the way to go. | 22:41 |
| bramc | It's possible than a fair number of people reading have no idea what I'm talking about | 22:43 |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:49 | |
| gwillen | bramc: I don't suppose there's a summary somewhere | 22:51 |
| gwillen | I'm curious enough to read it if there is | 22:51 |
| bramc | gwillen, Unfortunately no, it's rather complicated and a bit of a moving target. A bunch of the blockstream people have an idea because I explained it to them in person | 22:52 |
| gwillen | bramc: yeah, I am only recently a blockstream employee so I've heard bits and pieces from them, and bits and pieces in here, but unfortunately I missed hearing about it in person | 22:53 |
| -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@pool-108-51-197-41.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:53 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:53 | |
| bramc | The too short summary is that I'm working on a cryptocurrency where the mining is based on proofs of storage, with a whole lot of crazy engineering resulting to avoid grinding | 22:54 |
| gwillen | ahhh, okay, yes; the basic scheme was described to me, as of when you described it to the blockstream people | 22:55 |
| bramc | There's some commentary in the stuff about proofs of stake systems that intuitively it seems like there should be no way of avoiding grinding but noone's found a rigorous proof of it. It turns out that it is avoidable (sort of, with limitations) but doing proofs of storage is vastly less problematic than proofs of stake. | 22:56 |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 22:58 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 22:59 | |
| bramc | Right now I'm working on reducing the potential for what grinding potential remains in my scheme. It can't be completely eliminated, but it can be reduced. It's looking like I'll get down to something like if you have a 10% pool you'll be able to get a 1% or .1% bonus, and if you can make a 40% pool you can get a 10% or 1% bonus | 22:59 |
| bramc | depending on how the parameters are set. | 22:59 |
| gwillen | interesting | 22:59 |
| bramc | There's also some tradeoffs to how much advantage someone with a faster spow can get | 23:00 |
| * gwillen nods | 23:00 | |
| -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 23:01 | |
| bramc | The short of what I'm working on now is making it use the nth best match for determining the next challenge, where the n best have to be found collaboratively, so an attacker working on a fork is a lot less likely to have their fork get ahead. | 23:03 |
| -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 23:06 | |
| -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 23:06 | |
| -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:08 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 23:10 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@195.159.234.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 23:25 | |
| -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] | 23:25 | |
| -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:26 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 23:28 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:28 | |
| -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 23:29 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:32 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] | 23:32 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:32 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 23:34 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:34 | |
| -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 23:37 | |
| -!- bedeho [~bedeho@195.159.234.190] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:40 | |
| -!- cornus_ammonis [~Cornus@pool-173-73-119-83.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 23:41 | |
| -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards | 23:47 | |
| -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [] | 23:50 | |
| -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08a1a5.pool.mediaways.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 23:51 | |
| -!- null_radix [Elite7851@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-cmutzjhanxdesdbi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 23:52 | |
| --- Log closed Mon Mar 02 00:00:09 2015 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!