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| petertodd | phantomcircuit: unfortunately, or my whacky trick would be a lot more feasible... and re-reading this with a lower BAC, no, the thing that would make it very feasible would be in nValue was a variable-length integer, not a fixed 8-bytes integer... but in any case, the fact that it's possible at all again just shows that you really should use different hashing algorithms for inner nodes and leaf nodes in merkle trees (easy to do with HMAC) | 05:39 |
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| brisque | petertodd: somehow I don't think the ballmer peak applies to cryptography. | 05:52 |
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| kanzure | ""It harms decentralization" is not a valid argument without some way to determine what the optimal level of decentralization is; otherwise who's to say we shouldn't have an even smaller blocksize limit than we do now." | 08:55 |
| kanzure | yeah i haven't thought about whether smaller would work | 08:55 |
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| instagibbs | Well, it's plausible we are in a fairly flat area in our parameter space wrt decentralization. But we have no real idea what the function really is, other than some untested hypothesis. We know what it looks like roughly at 1MB, and it isn't that encouraging. | 09:17 |
| kanzure | smaller block sizes would be interesting in the short-term because we could experiment with what the results of hitting a block size limit would look like | 09:18 |
| kanzure | and since we already know that these limits can be increased to 1 MB (sort of....), that sort of experiment is unlikely to completely break the network in terms of storage space and node participation | 09:19 |
| kanzure | at least, it is less likely to break the network in the same way that 50000 GB average block size would :-) | 09:19 |
| instagibbs | I'd argue the current centralization has very little to do with the current blocksize but to ignorance and the early non-commodity ASIC phenomena, but I could be wrong, and increasing blocksize does nothing to fix these issues. | 09:21 |
| sipa | there are various forms of centralization | 09:21 |
| sipa | they are not all related | 09:21 |
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| sipa | miner centralization is different from independent-parties-running-full-nodes centralization, is different from humans-able-to-interact-on-the-blockchain centralization | 09:22 |
| kanzure | right, i was only suggesting a smaller blocksize to see what block size limits being reached means | 09:22 |
| instagibbs | well... they're related... as in you break one completely you break the whole thing :P | 09:22 |
| instagibbs | totally agreed though | 09:22 |
| kanzure | was there a specific technical concern about network breakage if block size limits are reached consistently? | 09:22 |
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| instagibbs | 1MB access limit to the blockchain is clearly not today's limiting factor though, so I don't think it plays into anything | 09:24 |
| kanzure | right, we could reduce that to 0.25 MB and get some data, whereas increasing to 400 TB per block to get some data would be catastrophic | 09:24 |
| justanotheruser | I would argue the optimal amount of decentralization is the amount that allows bitcoin to provide the most utility in terms of number of transactions, volume of transactions and safety of those transactions | 09:25 |
| sipa | that's very vague | 09:25 |
| instagibbs | justanotheruser: that doesn't map anything to do with being able to mine, for example | 09:26 |
| sipa | a tiny blockchain where every pocket calculator in the world can validate the chain isn't useful | 09:26 |
| sipa | (inter bank transfers are far superior for that use case) | 09:26 |
| sipa | and a huge blockchain where only google-sized datacenters can can validate the chain isn't useful | 09:27 |
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| justanotheruser | sipa: there isn't an easy way to define what the block size should be in terms of those three parameters | 09:27 |
| sipa | (we could just go back to trusting visa to process our transactions) | 09:27 |
| justanotheruser | you can try estimating though | 09:27 |
| sipa | so there is a balance between those, and IMHO, there are multiple possible balances | 09:27 |
| instagibbs | every user has to decide for himself an lobby :/ which is why this discussion is hard | 09:27 |
| sipa | and there is no right choice | 09:27 |
| sipa | it depends what we want to use bitcoin for | 09:27 |
| sipa | increasing the "range" of usecases is probably objectively useful | 09:28 |
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| instagibbs | writing out the list of "bitcoin should be able to do these strictly on chain" would be helpful. Lots of people have quite vague or impossible notions | 09:29 |
| sipa | worse, people don't realize that all of them are a tradeoff | 09:30 |
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| instagibbs | To backup, people need to decide if hitting max blocksize is a crisis to be avoided at all costs, natural state of function long-term, or an interesting experiment. A lot of this rhetorical haste appears to derive from this. | 09:32 |
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| amiller | does anyone know of any tools for doing blockchain analysis | 09:51 |
| amiller | like, i know i can parse the blockchain using bitcoinj or python-bitcoinlib or that little c tool | 09:52 |
| amiller | but i dunno, something that makes some kind of database i can do graph queries on or something? | 09:52 |
| adlai | do you mean tools for querying a local blockchain, or services that let you query their digested/indexed blockchain? | 09:52 |
| amiller | querying a local blockchian | 09:53 |
| adlai | familiar with jratcliffe's tools? | 09:53 |
| hearn | there are companies that have built such tools | 09:53 |
| hearn | and academics | 09:53 |
| hearn | there is a woman at a university in london who has built/got access to some kind of graph db analysis tool, i forgot her name | 09:54 |
| hearn | amiller: otherwise plugging bitcoinj into a graph database like neo4j or hypergraphdb would not be very hard, i think | 09:54 |
| adlai | https://code.google.com/p/blockchain/ | 09:54 |
| maaku | amiller: i am very surprised that no one has modified bitcoind to replace LevelDB with <insert database of choice> | 09:59 |
| maaku | that way you'd just keep a daemon running and it populates the database | 09:59 |
| sipa | all you'd get is a utxo set, though | 09:59 |
| amiller | not with tx-index turned on? | 10:00 |
| sipa | right, with txindex you get more, but it's hardly optimized for that | 10:00 |
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| kanzure | amiller: https://github.com/monetizeio/sqlalchemy-bitcoin | 10:02 |
| hearn | maaku: bitcoinj has UTXO store engines for mysql, postgres, h2 and someone has contributed a leveldb one but it's not merged yet | 10:04 |
| hearn | maaku: however they only index the UTXO set, not the entire chain. | 10:04 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] we're working hard to make btcd database agnostic, too. | 10:04 |
| hearn | maaku: but really for what amiller wants, you want a graph db | 10:04 |
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| gmaxwell | I don't think that 1MB is big enough, which makes it hard to come to terms with the fact that the best observations we have about behavior at the moment suggest that 1MB may be too large to be sustainable in a decenteralized system. I am still hopeful that immediately pending improvements turn the tides on full node deployments. | 11:13 |
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| tromp | possibly off-topic: latest Ethereum PoW revision at https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Ethash | 11:22 |
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| hearn | yet another pow? | 11:23 |
| tromp | not radically different, they just keep tweaking it | 11:23 |
| sipa | we need a popow | 11:23 |
| sipa | proof of pow | 11:23 |
| hearn | gmaxwell: is anyone working on pruning at the p2p protocol level? | 11:25 |
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| instagibbs | you mean pruned nodes advertising blocks? | 11:31 |
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| hearn | yes | 11:32 |
| hearn | ah, i found the latest autoprune patch | 11:32 |
| hearn | seems it's not done yet | 11:32 |
| sipa | someone should work on that, yes | 11:32 |
| instagibbs | suspicion is "no" | 11:32 |
| sipa | there have been proposals in the past | 11:32 |
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| kanzure | gmaxwell: i think instead of "the best observations we have about behavior" you mean "the best conclusions we could possibly derive from these observations"? changes meaning a little bit: one is a comment about what observations and explanations we can give, the other is a possibly more limited comment about material evidence. anyway, just a minor nitpick. | 11:35 |
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| kanzure | gmaxwell: personally i think it is excellent that we can lower the block size. that gives us something to test that we can be more strongly convinced wont cause the network to come to a complete halt. (although i haven't contemplated any sort of traps this might be equivalent to, so no claims as to whether it is perfectly better or not) | 11:37 |
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| jtimon | with a smaller block size we may also see more fee competition? | 12:10 |
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| Luke-Jr | jtimon: inherently. that's a miner topic though, not development ;) | 12:19 |
| Luke-Jr | (if you mean below 1 MB) | 12:19 |
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| jtimon | Luke-Jr do you know the aswer to my question in #bitcoin-dev ? | 12:40 |
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| Luke-Jr | jtimon: no | 12:57 |
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| phantomcircuit | <gmaxwell> I don't think that 1MB is big enough | 13:13 |
| phantomcircuit | the correct blocksize is the larger blocksize which doesn't cause centralization pressure | 13:13 |
| phantomcircuit | empirically we're seeming a bit of centralization pressure even now with blocks that are largely less than 1MB | 13:13 |
| phantomcircuit | largest* | 13:13 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] I think *=2 every 18 months is okay... and I'm more or less okay with Bitcoin being a FEDWIRE replacement. You can use sidechains/altchains as micropayment channels. | 13:34 |
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| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] Curious to see what the heck happens with Monero's network if it actually gets real use, since we still have adaptive block sizing. | 13:37 |
| MRL-Relay | [tacotime] (Will miners abuse it to drive fees insanely high? Etc) | 13:38 |
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| amincd | phantomcircuit: "the correct blocksize is the larger blocksize which doesn't cause centralization pressure" I think that needs some qualifiers. Centralization pressure up to some point doesn't reach the tipping point of making Bitcoin easy to regulate. I think we're far from that point i.e. we can afford a lot more centralization pressure. | 14:25 |
| amincd | what that point is I have no idea | 14:25 |
| amincd | and 'regulate' is somewhat of a euphemism. Let's call it what it is: banning unrestricted hosting of a Bitcoin node | 14:27 |
| smooth | im not convinced the current centralization pressure is significantly based on block size at all | 14:28 |
| smooth | what matters is not centralization but the derivative of centralization with respect to block size | 14:28 |
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| amincd | A larger block size could conceivably lead to a higher full node count, if it allows for a larger Bitcoin userbase. A thought experiment demonstrates this: a Bitcoin with a 1 KB block size would have very light full nodes, yet we wouldn't expect the full node count to increase. Instead the Bitcoin economy would be non-existent, and very few people care to run a full node. | 14:43 |
| sipa | i also think the full node count is totally.irrelevant | 14:43 |
| sipa | the question is how easy it is for independent interested parties to run one | 14:44 |
| sipa | how many actually obviously depends on the usefulness of the network it supports | 14:44 |
| smooth | a clear defintion of 'centralization' would help | 14:44 |
| smooth | i think almost literally every single person who uses the term means something different | 14:45 |
| sipa | decentralization is just a means to an end | 14:45 |
| amincd | The end being censorship resistancfe | 14:46 |
| sipa | that's one goal | 14:46 |
| smooth | still more fuzziness: people have different ideas of a the desirable end | 14:46 |
| sipa | another is having a currency where nobody can cheat | 14:46 |
| sipa | it doesn't matter whether anyone runs a full node | 14:47 |
| sipa | in that view | 14:47 |
| sipa | just that i can run one if i want to | 14:47 |
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| amincd | so independence for trusted third parties | 14:50 |
| sipa | yes, trustlessness | 14:50 |
| sipa | which is imho more important than decentralization | 14:50 |
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| amincd | *independence from | 14:50 |
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| sipa | both are fuzzy terms of course | 14:51 |
| sipa | as they are not absolute | 14:51 |
| hearn | as a wallet developer, "enough" means "enough capacity to serve all SPV clients that want to be served, quickly" | 14:51 |
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| sipa | right, there is an actual service they provide to others as well | 14:51 |
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| sipa | that's of course relevant, but imho easier to satisfy | 14:52 |
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| sipa | anyway, zZzZ | 14:53 |
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| amincd | I would submit that the 'sweet spot' for the block size, assuming blocks are filled with 'legitimate' transactions (UTXOs that are economically spendable), is likely the maximum size that still allows a significant (a fuzzy term) subset of the population to run a full node without upgrading their storage or bandwidth, i.e. by using only spare capacity. They may choose not to run a full node, but millions having the *ability* | 15:06 |
| amincd | fficulty is an effective check on centralization abuse | 15:07 |
| hearn | if all you care about is checking/auditing, it can be done probabilistically | 15:07 |
| hearn | that is you can fit a "somewhat full" node into almost any kind of hardware. in the worst case it degrades to full SPV. | 15:08 |
| hearn | in the best case it's like a full node today. | 15:08 |
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| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: I agree with that in principle, but the carrying capacity for people on earth goes only so high. So I think that independant of whatever admissable limit there is, there is also a pratical size at which no more is helpful. | 16:20 |
| gmaxwell | And what I was intending to express was the obvious point that 1MB isn't that number, at least not in the long run assuming Bitcoin continues to become more widely used. | 16:20 |
| hearn | MAX_BLOCK_SIZE = fn(get_global_population()) | 16:20 |
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| justanotheruser | can get_global_population ask me? | 16:27 |
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| gmaxwell | return 4; //chosen by fair random dice roll | 16:28 |
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| maaku | 4MB sounds good to me! | 16:51 |
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| AdrianG | hi gmaxwell | 17:40 |
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| instagibbs | hearn: please don't discriminate against self-driving cars! They have (blockchain) rights too. | 19:15 |
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| petertodd | SF wizards: I'll be in SF this saturday, and I'm turning 30... | 23:32 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Mar 11 00:00:18 2015 | ||
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