2015-03-13.log

--- Log opened Fri Mar 13 00:00:02 2015
--- Day changed Fri Mar 13 2015
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oaaviinteresting04:21
oaavihttp://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2yvy6b/a_regulatory_compliance_service_is_sybil/04:21
brisqueoaavi: probably more one for #bitcoin04:21
oaavikk04:22
oaavisry04:22
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fluffyponyfor anyone researching full node cost / capacity trade-offs (especially with larger blocks) this is good news: http://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead05:45
nubbins`10/10 would waste money on05:47
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instagibbsstill waiting for HP to deliver on their memristors. Then we can stop worrying about UTXO size06:08
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zooko"Maxwell, the bitcoin wizard"08:22
zookofrom http://insidebitcoins.com/news/someone-may-be-deanonymizing-your-bitcoin-transactions08:22
sipaha08:23
fluffyponyhah08:23
heaththe bitcoin workshop at Stanford mentioned at the MIT Bitcoin Expo: http://blockchainworkshops.org/08:23
brisquezooko: the quotes from Chainalysis really piss me off. it's just for a "blog post", never mind the fact that they say on the front of their website that they are selling access to an API that does deep deanonymisation.08:23
brisque"Chainalysis customers get access to an API that allows them to determine which entity a transaction originates from, and whether the flow of funds originate from someone they would want to do business with."08:24
brisque"He then went on to explain that the company is collecting data related to “bitcoin transfer activity between different countries.” They plan to share this data in an upcoming blog post."08:24
zookobrisque: haven't read down to the quotes from Chainalysis yet.08:24
* zooko is slow.08:24
amiller_zooko is live-casting his reading of the article :p08:25
sipaamiller_: there should be an online service for that08:25
sipalet's call it "Interactive Research Clarification"08:26
* zooko lol08:26
fluffyponylol08:27
amiller_i want to talk about a totally new idea today08:27
amiller_this is in the category of, applications of absolutely outofthisworld moon math cryptography to bitcoin applications08:27
zookoWhoo!08:27
amiller_todays bonker's crypto is: witness encryption https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/273.pdf08:27
fluffyponyoh thank goodness, I thought it was going to be ethereum for a second08:28
amiller_snarks are kind of dull and oldhat by now08:28
* sipa faints08:28
* zooko col08:28
zooko"chuckles out loud"08:28
amiller_witness encryption is different, roughly with witness encryption you can take an arbitrary NP statement (i.e., a circuit), and use it as a public encyrption key08:28
zookoThe people in this coffeeshop are starting to eye me.08:28
sipai never got to the point where i could say i could even explain why somethng like snarks might be possible08:29
zookosipa: me too.08:29
sipai'm not talking about explaining snarks08:29
amiller_you can encrypt a message such that anyone with a witness for that statement (i.e., a satisfying assignment such that the circuit outputs "1")08:29
zookoAnd now I'm about to have a new thing that I can't understand crowding into my brain. witness encryption.08:29
amiller_can decrypt the message08:29
zookoamiller_: that's pretty awesome.08:29
amiller_witness encryption is one of those things that's implied by indistinguishability obfuscation08:29
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amiller_so it's generically possible given some crazy assumptions about lattices or other multilinear maps, but the generic constructions are totally totally impractical, way worse than snarks or even fully homomorphic encryption08:30
amiller_of course it's possible that there will be more  efficient generic constructions, or that there will be efficient constructions for some limited class of statements, etc.08:31
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realcramiller_: What would you do with this kind of construction, if it worked?08:31
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amiller_realcr, great question, that's actually what i wanted to talk about!08:32
andytoshihooray :) i actually know about witness encryption08:33
amiller_okay so, if W.E. exists, we could use it so that proofs of work can decrypt a ciphertext.08:33
amiller_that's similar to timelock encryption08:33
amiller_but actually timelock encryption in crypto is pretty awful, like even though it loweer bounds the amount of time it takes to decrypt a thing,08:33
amiller_a) it's still expensive, someone has to dedicate like a whole core-year to it if the time limit is a year, b) it's not amortized, to decrypt n messages you need n cores08:34
amiller_so with W.E. you could make it so that you put a ciphertext in the blockchain, and after a month's worth of bitcoin proof of work, the miners have basically automatically decrypted it08:35
amiller_because the W.E. circuit is basically a circuit that SPV checks a month-long proof of work chain08:35
zookoHm.08:35
zookoWow.08:35
amiller_this would a) be amortizable, b) it uses the work bitcoin miners are already doing, and even better c) it can be pipelined08:35
amiller_that is, if ther's a transaction that starts at block B and takes 1 year, then at B+6 months i can add a new one of these transactinos08:36
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realcramiller_: I might not fully understand how w.e. works, but don't you need to know the instance x before you encrypt?08:36
amiller_and in the following 6 months, the miners are simnultaneously finishing off decrypting the first transaction, while also putting in the first 6 months of work decypritng the second08:36
zookoSo, to dumb it down even more, for my benefit, WE can make time-lock-crypto actually practical, where the time-lock is a sufficiently long, or sufficiently work-bearing blockchain.08:36
andytoshirealcr: nope :)08:36
amiller_realcr, no you do not08:36
zookoWow.08:36
realcrOh cool.08:36
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andytoshirealcr: you have a secret key which lets you bypass the requirement for having a witness08:36
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zookoUntil this moment, I thought time-lock-crypto wasn't good enough for my purposes.08:36
amiller_okay so i have 1 more clever twist ending.08:37
amiller_here's one application to motivate the big twist08:37
amiller_you know how there's that lottery game08:37
zooko08:37
fluffyponyrealcr: so it lets you, for instance, create text that can only be decrypted by proof of a mathematical solution that doesn't yet exist08:37
amiller_but since someone could just leave without revealing their commitment, everyone has to put in like N^2 deposits in total?08:37
andytoshi(which does mean that -somebody- can bypass the timelock, specifically the encrytor, unless i'm remembering wrong)08:37
amiller_well, you could use timelock encryption to make it so that if you don't reveal your commitment, after some time the miners will reveal it themselves08:38
amiller_now, for the twist.08:38
realcrfluffypony: It says in the article: An encryptor will take in an instance08:38
realcrx08:38
realcralong with a message08:38
realcrm08:38
realcrand run the encryption algorithm to produce a ciphertext CT08:38
amiller_suppose you want to make it so that if you don't reveal something, like make a transaction that pays somewhere before a deadline, you want your plaintext to be revealed,08:38
amiller_but if you *do* satisfy a condition, like pay out before the deadline, then you would prefer that the miners don't keep trying to reveal your secret08:39
amiller_well, you can basically make a W.E. circuit that says, this ciphertext can be decrypted given X amount of work on a blockchain, as long as that blockchain does *not* include a transaction that pays out before the deadline08:39
* zooko applauds08:40
zookoAwesome.08:40
zookoTwo brain-breaking new things for me to digest.08:40
amiller_so once miners start working on a blockchain that includes your transaction, they're no longer decrypting your message08:40
realcramiller_: It's really cool. I think I understand now.08:40
zookoThat latter thing is definitely one of those things that I thought was impossible.08:40
fluffyponyrealcr: the trick is in the circuit, the circuit has to output a value, say 1, if x is the magical proof we expect, and 0 if it isn't08:40
zookoUnfortunately, I need to go now. back in a bit.08:40
trompamiller: that cant be done SPV style though?!08:41
amiller_ok thats all i got08:41
amiller_tromp, i think that last part would require TXO commitments or something08:41
amiller_well, utxo commitments08:41
realcrfluffypony: And you just need to know ahead of time that x is actually inside the language L, and you do know that ahead of time. Cool.08:41
andytoshirealcr: fluffypony: x is the instance of the problem; a witness w is the "proof" and you have some relation such that (x,w)=108:41
fluffyponyyup08:42
trompamiller: yes, those would suffice08:42
realcrI see. I mixed the ideas of witness and instance, but now I get it.08:42
realcrtromp: What does spv stand for?08:42
trompsimple payment verification08:42
siparealcr: simplified payment verification08:42
realcrsipa: Thanks.08:42
siparead section 8 of the bitcoin whitepaper08:43
andytoshirealcr: also be aware that the security property is a little weird: it says that if your instance x is -not- in the language, the encryption should be indistinguishable from random. it says nothing about if x -is- in the language, so to build actual cryptosystems you need to introduce other primitives which somehow "disguise" whether or not x is in the language08:43
andytoshic.f. the original W.E. paper which has no proof of security but otoh is easier to read http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/25808:43
andytoshithere are a few pages of applications in there where they build public-key encryption, identity-based encryption, etc, from WE08:44
fluffyponyhttp://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~sanjamg/classes/cs276-fall14/scribe/lec18.pdf08:44
fluffyponyalso a nice overview of W.E in general08:44
realcrDo you think it is expected to be somewhat practical?08:45
realcrI always fear that those things are just a far dream.08:46
andytoshirealcr: one day, yes, but we are not close08:46
realcrI mean practical by computation time etc. The math seems to be solid.08:46
realcrI see.08:46
amiller_realcr, the math is still questionable too tbh08:46
realcr:)08:47
siparealcr: "the math seems to be solid", i doubt there are many people in the world who could reasonable make that statement08:47
sipa*reasonably08:47
andytoshimy feeling is we should totally scrap this graded-encoding paradigm (as well as multilinear maps for that matter, even if they exist they won't be quantum hard) and think about building arbitrary oblivious circuits from something simpler like lattices08:47
amiller_the assumptions are kinda out there, the top theory people are basically still exploring whether there's attacks that break the whole thing down or better assumptoins that suffice08:47
realcrI looked at a few pages at random, and the math consequences seemed to be valid :) That's how you probabilistically check proofs.08:47
amiller_realcr, hahaha :D08:47
andytoshirealcr: the problem is that there are no axioms at the bottom, just super sketchy "assumptions"08:48
andytoshialso haha at PCP :)08:48
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instagibbsassume crypto assumptions are spherical09:44
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mrkent_What are major reasons why someone wouldn't use default port while running bitcoin node11:36
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gmaxwellTheir local network blocks it. Otherwise? I have no suggestion.11:38
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maakubecause they don't want incoming DNS seed connections? i don't know12:26
gmaxwells/DNS seed/12:28
phantomcircuitmaaku, i dont think that would work12:28
gmaxwell/12:28
phantomcircuitif you make outgoing connections iirc you tell your peers about which port you're using12:29
gmaxwellusing a non-default port makes other nodes avoidconnecting to you.12:29
maakuphantomcircuit: the DNS seed doesn't report non-standard port addresses12:29
phantomcircuitnon default ports are shunned?12:29
phantomcircuitoh12:29
phantomcircuitinteresting12:29
maakuwhy is non-default ports shunned by bitcoind? that's news to me12:29
gmaxwellamiller_: how is witness encryption adifferent from attribute based encryption?12:34
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gmaxwellmaaku: to prevent people from making the network into a big nussance of connecting to non-nodes.12:38
gmaxwellmaaku: they're only connected to as a last resort if you're unable to get connected for a while (e.g. if the port is blocked outbound for you)12:39
maakugmaxwell: because the presumption that non-nodes connect via different ports?12:40
gmaxwellI'm not following.12:40
maakuwhy does it matter what port a node uses?12:41
gmaxwellBitcoin Core will not connect out to anything except 8333 unless its unable to get connected. This prevents an attack where someone announces, say, bob's fizzle-bop server as a 'node' and then 100,000 bitcoin nodes irritate bob by connecting to him over and over again.12:41
gmaxwell(and then Bob files abuse complaints against random Bitcoin users)12:41
Taekthey would connect over and over again?12:44
fluffyponyBob would be like a masternode12:46
fluffypony:-P12:46
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maakugmaxwell: ok thanks that was my question12:50
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phantomcircuitTaek, no but it would be enough for lots of nodes to try to connect even periodically12:58
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adam3usamiller_: "way worse than fully homomorphic encryption" :( aka impractical, check back in a decade or so?13:21
phantomcircuithorray i've loaded 635000 out of 62297829 transactions into my sql db13:21
phantomcircuitonly ~100% more to go13:21
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kanzurephantomcircuit: why are you taking so long?13:21
phantomcircuitkanzure, dat bitcoind rpc yo13:22
adam3ussipa: i think the brands credential scheme gives some indication of why snark-like things might work.  a simplish generalisation/extension to schnorr signatures and then you can prove execution of a tiny/simple program (a small boolean circuit)13:22
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adam3ussipa: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/crypto/publications/CamSta97b.pdf shows how to use brands respresentation problem and tree representations also brands semi-tech short paper http://cypherspace.org/credlib/brands-technical.pdf13:25
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maraozphantomcircuit: try using the p2p protocol, it's much faster13:38
maraoz(you need to run bitcoind with -txindex option)13:38
phantomcircuitmaraoz, uh thanks13:39
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phantomcircuitwoo 3%14:16
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gmaxwellmaraoz: uhhh txindex shouldn't change _anything_ about the p2p behavior.14:18
gmaxwellif it does, thats a bug.14:18
maraozgmaxwell: my bad! I thought if a node received 'getdata' for an old tx it would not answer unless it had -txindex on14:22
phantomcircuitit wont answer regardless14:23
phantomcircuitand im using the rpc stuff so i can get bitcoind to decode the transactions for me14:23
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maraozah, got it. you could try getting blocks via p2p if you wanted ALL transactions.14:24
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MRL-Relay[othe] if you just want all stuff(tx, blocks) in a db format, why not use bitpays insight?14:34
phantomcircuitmariorz, yes but then i have to decode them myself14:39
phantomcircuitMRL-Relay, because ew14:40
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MRL-Relay[othe] theres a hystoric sync tool in js which reads the dat files and puts them in a leveldb (can easily modified to put it to whatever db) - just saying14:40
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gmaxwellDoes anyone know if ABISprotocol on bct happens to be a new identity of Anonymint?16:58
hearni think ABISprotocol has been posting to github and bct for a long time (years)16:59
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gmaxwellK. his accoutn was created not that long before anonymint stopped posting.17:00
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gmaxwellWondered if he was known to be the same before I wasted any more time responding to him.17:01
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Luke-JrI remember some "ABIS protocol" thing from like 201117:14
Luke-Jrwasn't it some kind of wallet protocol thing that never went anywhere?17:14
sipamore a vague idea about wallets and rainbows and unicorns17:15
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hearnyeah calling it a protocol was a bit grand, iirc17:16
sipahttps://github.com/ABISprotocol/ABIS#abis17:18
gmaxwellyea, he seemed familar to me.  Context was that sybil monitoring network thread. You can see the last few postst there if you can, not really important.17:19
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Luke-Jr[00:15:43] <sipa> more a vague idea about wallets and rainbows and unicorns <-- lol17:20
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bramcHey everybody18:17
bramcthere's something in the IBLT stuff I'm not getting. If I have a transaction and split it up and distribute it in the iblt, how many copies of the different parts of it do I put in there, and where do I put them in?18:18
bramcrusty's post about it gives an example where something is split into two parts, one of which is included twice and one of which is included once, which seems... odd.18:19
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kanzurelinks please18:21
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bramckanzure, http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/05/Playing-with-invertible-bloom-lookup-tables-and-bitcoin-transactions.html18:28
kanzurei would not have guessed that url18:31
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trompi wld think you shld only put in single copies. he probably had an extra copy just for educational purposes19:47
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bramcso I'm working through some math on this IBLT thing20:10
bramcIf one assumes that all things in the set are the same size, and there are n diffs between the two sets and m copies per diff and k slots, then I figure what you want to focus on is the virality of reveals: that is, the expected number of new reveals to happen from a previous reveal. If that value is greater than 1, you're probably golden, hence leading to the thresholding behavior rusty was so confused by20:12
bramcSo I worked through some math and get the formula for that of m(m-1)n(k-m)^(n-1)/k^n20:12
bramcand, uh, it's been a while since I did much calculus, anybody know how to take the derivative of that with respect to m or point me to a web site which does? (I assume wolfram alpha does, but I don't know its syntax)20:13
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amiller_bramc, http://quickmath.com/webMathematica3/quickmath/calculus/differentiate/advanced.jsp#c=differentiate_advanceddifferentiate&v1=m(m-1)n(k-m)%5E(n-1)%2Fk%5En&v2=m%0A20:16
gmaxwell-(((k-m)^(-2+n)n(k-2*k*m+m^2-m*n+m^2n))/k^n)20:16
gmaxwellbramc: the way it's used for transactions is to break the transactions into parts, thus meeting the same size criteria...20:17
bramcgmaxwell, I don't get the breaking into parts, that seems to make it much harder to reconstitute20:18
bramcBecause you need all the parts to reconstruct a transaction20:18
gmaxwellbramc: not an issue that more overhead can't solve.20:18
bramcI'm trying to minimize overhead :-P20:18
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bramcSeriously though, you need all the parts to reconstruct a transaction. Knowing that a transaction part is xored with some other unknown transaction doesn't help you20:19
bramcThanks for the math. Can somebody find the zeros of that mess quickly?20:19
gmaxwellthere are several obvious trivial roots.20:21
gmaxwelluhh20:21
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bramcI'm expanding it now. It's a simple quadratic after getting rid of all the garbage20:23
kanzure.wa roots of -(((k-m)^(-2+n)n(k-2*k*m+m^2-m*n+m^2n))/k^n)20:23
yoleauxroots -((k-m)^(-2+n) n (k-2 k m+m²-m n+m² n))/k^n = 0: k = 0 and Re(n)<0; k!=0 and m = k and Re(n)>1; k² !=k m and n = 0; m² !=m and k² !=k m and n = (-2 k m+k+m²)/(m-m²)20:23
gmaxwelln=(((k*((2*m)-1))-(m*m))/((m*m)-m))20:24
gmaxwellwow someone got WA to do something useful! amazing.20:25
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kanzuredon't celebrate yet, it misinterpreted m^(2n)20:25
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gmaxwellkanzure: darn it somewhere I have a screenshot where I gave it a simple expression and it simplified it to   Sum(expression * n_i,i,-Inf,Inf) where n[i] = 1 for 0 and 0 for all other values.20:27
gmaxwell"Gee thanks for that help."20:28
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kanzureyeah i just think of wolframalpha as maybe a little sarcastic sometimes :)20:28
bramcAfter solving and removing very small terms I get (n+2k+-(n^2+4k^2)^.5)/(2n)20:31
bramcobviously it isn't the plus, so that's (n+2k-(n^2+4k^2)^.5)/2n20:32
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bramcOh wait, I got it wrong, it's the plus. If we say k=cn, we have (1+2c+(1+4c^2)^.5)/220:37
bramcSo what it boils down to is that the optimal number of copies has to do with what you expect the ratio of the amount of stuff you have stored with how much space you have20:40
bramcIf the ratio is 1, which means you're fucked, it's 2.6, so the actual value should be larger than that20:41
bramcIf the ratio is 1.5, in which case you probably aren't fucked, the optimal value is 3.58, and at 1.2, which probably on the edge, it's exactly 3.020:43
bramcSo that was a lot of math for concluding that the best number of copies is 320:43
bramcBut I still don't understand why to split into parts at all, except to support multisize, and even there I have an issue with it20:43
bramcParts should individually self-declare what they are so they can be covered individually and collated later20:45
bramcAnyway, all that math resulted in a nice clear answer of 3, and I see why rusty's implementation is so shit at insertions. More work later, time for me to go home.20:46
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smoothgmaxwell: i dont think abisprotocol is anonymint (but anything is possible). mint is using the nick iamback now22:20
gmaxwellsmooth: thanks!22:23
bramcargh, this multiplier never gets above 1. If you want your diff to work, you basically have to get all the pieces right off the bat.22:26
bramcOh wait, it helps if I multiply by the number I need to multiply by22:28
phantomcircuitbramc, minor details22:29
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bramcOkay, running numbers properly I get that the exponential multiplier gets over 1 when m=5 and k=2.422:36
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bramcso basically 58% of your IBLT will be wasted, at least compared to theoretical capacity, and the number of copies stored should be 522:37
bramcThere's a marginal advantage to making any given block have some chance of hashing to 6 places, but it's clearly not worth the complexity22:40
bramcAnd oh wait, a lot of that overhead is recouped by positions not being used, I'll have to work out how much that saves22:43
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* rusty wakes up....22:48
bramcHey rusty!22:49
bramcrusty, As you can see in scrollback I've been doing math and running numbers on IBLTs.22:49
rustybramc: fixed sizes make the numbers somewhat easier.22:50
bramcIt turns out that the thresholding phenomenon you noticed is very real and can be explained straightforwardly22:50
rustybramc: of course, but kalle didn't see the same threshold.22:51
rustybramc: the threshold is made more abrupt by my requirement that all parts of a tx be available before removing any of it from the iblt.22:51
bramcrusty, there are a number of things which could potentially cause the phenomenon to go away, the discussions seem to underspecify behavior a bit22:52
rustybramc: (remember, gavin's proposal had us breaking txs into equal sie parts).22:52
gmaxwellIn general I think polynomial set reconciliation is more interesting, since you get more or less optimal communications efficiency and get it consistently; and you also get perfect communications parallelism; but perhaps the performance hit is too big. Having never implemented the rational interpolation I don't have a feel for the performance; but it only needs to be used to communicate ID's and22:52
gmaxwelllengths and then the RS code stuff I described before can take over and that can be very fast (because it can be implemented over GF(2^8) using lookup tables).22:52
bramcrusty, I'd like to assume that transaction parts are self declaring, so they say 'I'm part 1 of transaction Q' and so they can be reconstructed individually and put back together later22:52
bramcgmaxwell, the nice features of IBLT are that it's (a) simple (b) fast (c) requires no interactivity whatsoever22:53
rustybramc: Yes, but that takes space.  There's a trick I noted in the final comment on that post, however, and it's on my TODO.22:53
rustybramc: each iblt bucket is [txid] [frag number] [data].  (Well, it's not actually txid for <reasons>, but you get the idea).22:54
bramcrusty, well for simplicity I assumed that all txs are equal size, and for analysis purposes I assumed that it's either all insertions or all deletions, there are of course headaches when there's a mix because you get false zeroes22:54
gmaxwellbramc: yes, what I'd described before required no interactivity whatsoever. (assuming you send enough data)  as it started as a proposal to improve network convergence time, rather than bandwidth,  by being able to send different data to each peer to maximize goodput.22:55
bramcgmaxwell, not sure what you mean by that. It looks like IBLT is most applicable to fast relay networks. And yes it's probably more important for convergence time than bandwidth.22:55
gmaxwellI'm not actually sure how fast the IBLT stuff goes, e.g. does the overhead of trump that the basic operations are faster? probably not, but I'm unsure.22:55
rustybramc: yeah, I simulated.  (Though dumb me, I took txs from the testnet.)22:56
bramcgmaxwell, IBLT stuff is essentially instantaneous22:56
rustygmaxwell: I'll add "Understand and implement gmaxwell's scheme" to my TODO.22:56
gmaxwellbramc: there are far simpler things that work wonders if _all_ you care about is convergence time (e.g. Matt's protocol)22:56
bramcgmaxwell, this would simplify matt's protocol by making it so the fast relay network doesn't have to maintain states for peers it's talking to or do round trips on synchronization22:58
rustybramc: well, you have to generate the for-this-iblt-txids for all txs in your mempool.  Then you wander over the iblt; in the good case it's almost a single sweep.22:58
bramcgmaxwell, Also refer to my earlier comment about 'I shouldn't be working on this but it's fun'22:58
rustybramc: matt would still win, and has no failure modes.22:58
bramcJust to clarify: I like matt's protocol better, and will read up on it later22:59
gmaxwellbramc: I mean, matt's protocol relays most blocks as three or for packets or something like that. And the reconstruction is simply copying the data, no calculation at all. No hashing no yadda yadda. It's hard to be faster doing anything else.23:00
gmaxwellrusty: sipa has a better writeup. though he hasn't plugged in all the optional improvements yet.23:00
bramcrusty, the explanation of why the threshold happens is a virality one. Each tx you correct will reduce counts in a few other blocks by one. Each of those has some chance of resulting in a new recoverable transaction. If the expected number of those is greater than one then you'll almost certainly be able to recover everything. If it's less than one you're screwed23:02
rustybramc: sure, but it's worse if you require N block to be recoverable to make progress.23:03
bramcrusty, what? I'm assuming that you repeatedly recover whatever you happen to be able to recover, and that larger transactions are split into smaller individually recoverable pieces23:03
bramcAnd I'm ignoring encoding overhead23:04
gmaxwellKey in my fancier scheme is that the source of a block can send fragments round robbin to peers, the fragements are orthorgonal, and (ignoring some linear overhead for 'ID's) each peer can recover as soon as it has the data equal to the missing data (not the difference), and if they don't have enough yet they can get data from the source's peers instead of the source directly.  So in the time it23:04
gmaxwelltakes a source to send a single full difference, all N of its peers can be fully recovered (assuming bandwidth between the N isn't sharing the same bandwidth limit as the source); and with no round trips needed (except to say 'send me no more').23:04
rustybramc: yes, my implementation was dumb, and only recovered a tx if all parts were available :)23:04
bramcrusty, thanks for clarifying that. That's what I assumed given how awfully it performs or insertions23:05
gmaxwellrusty: oy yea, thats derpy. :)23:05
rustybramc: OTOH, there's the trick that if you find part n of a tx in a bucket with count -1, you can now clear all parts of the tx.23:05
bramcrusty, So I did some math and found that if the number of diffs is n, the number of copies of each transaction is m, and the number of slots is k, then the viral base is m*(m-1)*n*(k-m)^(n-1)/k^n which is almost scale invariant on k and n as long as their ratio remains the same23:07
bramcand optimizing for m, if we say that k=cn, we get m=(1+2*c+(1+4c^2)^.5)/223:07
rustybramc: kalle says k=3 wins https://github.com/kallerosenbaum/bitcoin-iblt/wiki/Diff-count-VS-failure-probability23:08
bramcrusty, kalle is wrong :-P23:08
rustybramc: we need a corpus to figure that out.23:09
bramcrusty, I have some math which should be worth something :-P23:09
bramcEven in kalle's graphs it says that k=4 and 5 beats 3, but it's 'only' a factor of 2 or something, which looks small on his log scale graphs.23:10
bramcrusty, so plugging in numbers I get that things go over 1 at c=2.4 and m=5 (that's k=5 in the variable names kalle is using)23:12
rustybramc: ?  What23:12
bramcat that point 6 works almost exactly as well23:12
rustybramc: his graph shows lowest fail prob with k=3, across entire range.23:12
bramcone could argue that a viral base marginally over 1.0 isn't likely to work in practice, so if we want a base of, say, 1.25, we get c=2.8 and k=623:14
bramcso, umm, I guess the best number of copies to use is 623:14
rustybramc: I'll have to dig out the paper, but that's larger than the number I read... was one of the IBLT papers.23:14
bramcrusty, I'm quite certain that if you do the overall optimization of getting the best ratio of size to amount recoverable the best is 5 or 6. 3 is clearly far worse23:15
bramcif c=2.8 (that means you have 2.8 times as many entries as diffs) then if you have 3 copies your viral base is .74, meaning you're fucked, and if you use 6 copies your viral base is 1.25, meaning you're clearly recoverable23:16
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bramcIf there's a paper which gives values for numbers of copies with a coherent justification I'd love to see it23:17
rustybramc: Let me step back a moment, make sure we're in sync?23:17
bramcrusty, sure23:17
rustybramc: c = #number of iblt entries / #things-put-in-iblt ?23:18
bramcrusty, yes23:18
bramcand I'm assuming that each 'thing' fits in exactly one entry23:18
rustybramc: sure.23:19
rustybramc: so, you're saying that if you have 2800 buckets, and 1000 things.  If each one gets hashed and added 3 times, you're screwed, but if it gets hashed and added 6 times you're OK?23:20
bramcrusty, exactly23:20
rustybramc: That's easily testable.23:21
bramcrusty, It's because of exponential blow-up. If you do multiple passes through as subsequent things get revealed, you'll find with 3 copies that the number on each pass is about 3/4 what it was on the last pass, where with 5 copies it's about 5/423:22
rustybramc: sure, as long as there's a singleton somewhere to start with.23:22
bramcrusty, I started with the math because it clarifies what's going on23:22
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bramcThere will be plenty of singletons. The chances of not getting any at that scale is exceedingly small23:23
bramcLike, effectively nonexistent23:23
rustyhttp://conferences.sigcomm.org/sigcomm/2011/papers/sigcomm/p218.pdf23:24
bramcrusty, I'm also assuming that it's all insertions or all deletions. Things get more complicated if there's a mix23:24
rustybramc: yes, I'm assuming the "false singleton" case (n insertions, n-1 deletions, or vice versa) is noise.23:25
bramcrusty, That's probably close to true, but implementing it properly requires a bunch of interesting backtracking23:25
rustybramc: 6.1 of that paper says 3 or 4.23:26
bramcrusty, Apparently this is the paper which got later papers saying 'n hash functions' instead of 'n copies' which confused someone in this channel so much :-P23:27
rustybramc: yeah, I don't think we want to backtrack.  But there's a trick where the frag counter is offset by the hash of the txid, which means that you can easily spot more likely candidates.23:27
rustybramc: damn, baby feeding time....23:27
bramcrusty, them using size 50 is probably throwing things off a lot23:30
phantomcircuitgmaxwell, bleh validating just the last 2016*4 blocks is going to take > 1 hour23:31
phantomcircuit(with openssl)23:32
bramcI suppose it's possible that I'm also being pessimistic in that I'm assuming that the viral base needs to be higher than it does, because some fraction of everything will be singletons right off the bat, and with each thing you remove the viral base goes up23:32
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bramcSo my estimates are overly pessimistic that way23:32
phantomcircuitstrike that it took23:33
phantomcircuit38 minutes23:33
brisquephantomcircuit: I hear validation is faster if you return True ;)23:33
phantomcircuitcould be worse23:33
phantomcircuitbrisque, you joke but i've done just that before23:34
brisquephantomcircuit: I wasn't joking.23:34
bramcgmaxwell, for what it's worth, they're claiming that c=1.4 is recoverable, and by my calculations at that size 3 copies should come closer to recovery than 423:34
bramcI meant to direct that last statement to rusty, sorry23:34
phantomcircuitbrisque, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/584223:36
phantomcircuitbleh merge conflicts23:37
rustybramc: math is nice.  Testing is nicer :)23:38
rustybramc: I promise I will re-test once all the other variables are eliminated.23:38
bramcrusty, running the numbers does give a useful intuitive insight for what's happening. I knew that my numbers were pessimistic but apparently they're way more pessimistic than I thought23:39
brisquephantomcircuit: aw, I was expecting insanity=1 where it does no ECDSA tests at all23:39
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bramcrusty, my numbers also indicate that giving some chance of 2 or 4 is unlikely to make a measurable difference23:41
phantomcircuitbrisque, without the last commit it can randomly do that!23:41
phantomcircuithorray!23:41
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rustybramc: Oh, I like your count optimization, too.  My statement about compressing on the wire was brainfart, because the numbers in the transmitted iblt are large, of course.23:41
bramcrusty, You also have to factor in how much compression you get from entries being empty, I'm going to run that next, it looks like once you do that you're astoundingly close to optimal efficiency23:42
rustybramc: entries being empty?23:42
bramcrusty, yeah23:42
phantomcircuitblargh23:42
bramcIf you use c=1.4 and 3 copies, a significant fraction of all entries will have literally nothing in them23:43
rustybramc: confused.  Entries may be empty after iblt subtraction, but they're not for transmission.23:43
bramcOh duh, you're right, never mind, forgot about the subtraction step23:43
phantomcircuitderp i screwed that up23:43
phantomcircuitit'll be easier to start fresh than to fix this git history ...23:44
bramcrusty, One can of course compress the numbers, but yuck23:44
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rustybramc: yeah :(  It's kind of fascinating to send around a totally clogged up (and thus useless) bloom filter, and magic it into something useful :)23:44
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bramcrusty, It is a fun trick, hence my messing with it. I'm less negative on it now that I know the overhead is more like 40% than 150%23:47
rustybramc: the bias towards "extra" vs. "missing" txs is also the right way (ie. perfect network => I'll have more txs than you did when you solved block).23:47
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bramcrusty, I'm not convinced that there's a tradeoff to be had there. Forcing pieces to be interrelated gets lousy insertion performance without much benefit to deletion performance23:49
rustybramc: if you don't fragment txs, how do you get large txs?  Variable size buckets mean you're basically encoding most of it multiple times in the clear.23:54
bramcrusty, You could make a separate data structure of just ids with no content which was nominally bigger for the purposes of finding deletions, that would likely make performance overall better when there are more deletions than insertions23:54
bramcrusty, I'm saying fragment transactions, but do it in a way where the fragments can be recovered individually rather than being directly interdependent23:55
rustybramc: hmm, in what way does gavin's <id><counter> prefix not do that?23:56
bramcrusty, I don't see anything about <id><counter> in your post. Maybe a comment is saying something about it.23:58
rustybramc: struct keySum {            u8 id[6];            u16 index;            u8 frag[8];    } key;23:59
rustybramc: which was in the original gist.23:59
--- Log closed Sat Mar 14 00:00:09 2015

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