| --- Log opened Fri Mar 13 00:00:02 2015 | ||
| --- Day changed Fri Mar 13 2015 | ||
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| oaavi | interesting | 04:21 |
|---|---|---|
| oaavi | http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2yvy6b/a_regulatory_compliance_service_is_sybil/ | 04:21 |
| brisque | oaavi: probably more one for #bitcoin | 04:21 |
| oaavi | kk | 04:22 |
| oaavi | sry | 04:22 |
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| fluffypony | for anyone researching full node cost / capacity trade-offs (especially with larger blocks) this is good news: http://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead | 05:45 |
| nubbins` | 10/10 would waste money on | 05:47 |
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| instagibbs | still waiting for HP to deliver on their memristors. Then we can stop worrying about UTXO size | 06:08 |
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| zooko | "Maxwell, the bitcoin wizard" | 08:22 |
| zooko | from http://insidebitcoins.com/news/someone-may-be-deanonymizing-your-bitcoin-transactions | 08:22 |
| sipa | ha | 08:23 |
| fluffypony | hah | 08:23 |
| heath | the bitcoin workshop at Stanford mentioned at the MIT Bitcoin Expo: http://blockchainworkshops.org/ | 08:23 |
| brisque | zooko: the quotes from Chainalysis really piss me off. it's just for a "blog post", never mind the fact that they say on the front of their website that they are selling access to an API that does deep deanonymisation. | 08:23 |
| brisque | "Chainalysis customers get access to an API that allows them to determine which entity a transaction originates from, and whether the flow of funds originate from someone they would want to do business with." | 08:24 |
| brisque | "He then went on to explain that the company is collecting data related to “bitcoin transfer activity between different countries.” They plan to share this data in an upcoming blog post." | 08:24 |
| zooko | brisque: haven't read down to the quotes from Chainalysis yet. | 08:24 |
| * zooko is slow. | 08:24 | |
| amiller_ | zooko is live-casting his reading of the article :p | 08:25 |
| sipa | amiller_: there should be an online service for that | 08:25 |
| sipa | let's call it "Interactive Research Clarification" | 08:26 |
| * zooko lol | 08:26 | |
| fluffypony | lol | 08:27 |
| amiller_ | i want to talk about a totally new idea today | 08:27 |
| amiller_ | this is in the category of, applications of absolutely outofthisworld moon math cryptography to bitcoin applications | 08:27 |
| zooko | Whoo! | 08:27 |
| amiller_ | todays bonker's crypto is: witness encryption https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/273.pdf | 08:27 |
| fluffypony | oh thank goodness, I thought it was going to be ethereum for a second | 08:28 |
| amiller_ | snarks are kind of dull and oldhat by now | 08:28 |
| * sipa faints | 08:28 | |
| * zooko col | 08:28 | |
| zooko | "chuckles out loud" | 08:28 |
| amiller_ | witness encryption is different, roughly with witness encryption you can take an arbitrary NP statement (i.e., a circuit), and use it as a public encyrption key | 08:28 |
| zooko | The people in this coffeeshop are starting to eye me. | 08:28 |
| sipa | i never got to the point where i could say i could even explain why somethng like snarks might be possible | 08:29 |
| zooko | sipa: me too. | 08:29 |
| sipa | i'm not talking about explaining snarks | 08:29 |
| amiller_ | you can encrypt a message such that anyone with a witness for that statement (i.e., a satisfying assignment such that the circuit outputs "1") | 08:29 |
| zooko | And now I'm about to have a new thing that I can't understand crowding into my brain. witness encryption. | 08:29 |
| amiller_ | can decrypt the message | 08:29 |
| zooko | amiller_: that's pretty awesome. | 08:29 |
| amiller_ | witness encryption is one of those things that's implied by indistinguishability obfuscation | 08:29 |
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| amiller_ | so it's generically possible given some crazy assumptions about lattices or other multilinear maps, but the generic constructions are totally totally impractical, way worse than snarks or even fully homomorphic encryption | 08:30 |
| amiller_ | of course it's possible that there will be more efficient generic constructions, or that there will be efficient constructions for some limited class of statements, etc. | 08:31 |
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| realcr | amiller_: What would you do with this kind of construction, if it worked? | 08:31 |
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| amiller_ | realcr, great question, that's actually what i wanted to talk about! | 08:32 |
| andytoshi | hooray :) i actually know about witness encryption | 08:33 |
| amiller_ | okay so, if W.E. exists, we could use it so that proofs of work can decrypt a ciphertext. | 08:33 |
| amiller_ | that's similar to timelock encryption | 08:33 |
| amiller_ | but actually timelock encryption in crypto is pretty awful, like even though it loweer bounds the amount of time it takes to decrypt a thing, | 08:33 |
| amiller_ | a) it's still expensive, someone has to dedicate like a whole core-year to it if the time limit is a year, b) it's not amortized, to decrypt n messages you need n cores | 08:34 |
| amiller_ | so with W.E. you could make it so that you put a ciphertext in the blockchain, and after a month's worth of bitcoin proof of work, the miners have basically automatically decrypted it | 08:35 |
| amiller_ | because the W.E. circuit is basically a circuit that SPV checks a month-long proof of work chain | 08:35 |
| zooko | Hm. | 08:35 |
| zooko | Wow. | 08:35 |
| amiller_ | this would a) be amortizable, b) it uses the work bitcoin miners are already doing, and even better c) it can be pipelined | 08:35 |
| amiller_ | that is, if ther's a transaction that starts at block B and takes 1 year, then at B+6 months i can add a new one of these transactinos | 08:36 |
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| realcr | amiller_: I might not fully understand how w.e. works, but don't you need to know the instance x before you encrypt? | 08:36 |
| amiller_ | and in the following 6 months, the miners are simnultaneously finishing off decrypting the first transaction, while also putting in the first 6 months of work decypritng the second | 08:36 |
| zooko | So, to dumb it down even more, for my benefit, WE can make time-lock-crypto actually practical, where the time-lock is a sufficiently long, or sufficiently work-bearing blockchain. | 08:36 |
| andytoshi | realcr: nope :) | 08:36 |
| amiller_ | realcr, no you do not | 08:36 |
| zooko | Wow. | 08:36 |
| realcr | Oh cool. | 08:36 |
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| andytoshi | realcr: you have a secret key which lets you bypass the requirement for having a witness | 08:36 |
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| zooko | Until this moment, I thought time-lock-crypto wasn't good enough for my purposes. | 08:36 |
| amiller_ | okay so i have 1 more clever twist ending. | 08:37 |
| amiller_ | here's one application to motivate the big twist | 08:37 |
| amiller_ | you know how there's that lottery game | 08:37 |
| zooko | ☺ | 08:37 |
| fluffypony | realcr: so it lets you, for instance, create text that can only be decrypted by proof of a mathematical solution that doesn't yet exist | 08:37 |
| amiller_ | but since someone could just leave without revealing their commitment, everyone has to put in like N^2 deposits in total? | 08:37 |
| andytoshi | (which does mean that -somebody- can bypass the timelock, specifically the encrytor, unless i'm remembering wrong) | 08:37 |
| amiller_ | well, you could use timelock encryption to make it so that if you don't reveal your commitment, after some time the miners will reveal it themselves | 08:38 |
| amiller_ | now, for the twist. | 08:38 |
| realcr | fluffypony: It says in the article: An encryptor will take in an instance | 08:38 |
| realcr | x | 08:38 |
| realcr | along with a message | 08:38 |
| realcr | m | 08:38 |
| realcr | and run the encryption algorithm to produce a ciphertext CT | 08:38 |
| amiller_ | suppose you want to make it so that if you don't reveal something, like make a transaction that pays somewhere before a deadline, you want your plaintext to be revealed, | 08:38 |
| amiller_ | but if you *do* satisfy a condition, like pay out before the deadline, then you would prefer that the miners don't keep trying to reveal your secret | 08:39 |
| amiller_ | well, you can basically make a W.E. circuit that says, this ciphertext can be decrypted given X amount of work on a blockchain, as long as that blockchain does *not* include a transaction that pays out before the deadline | 08:39 |
| * zooko applauds | 08:40 | |
| zooko | Awesome. | 08:40 |
| zooko | Two brain-breaking new things for me to digest. | 08:40 |
| amiller_ | so once miners start working on a blockchain that includes your transaction, they're no longer decrypting your message | 08:40 |
| realcr | amiller_: It's really cool. I think I understand now. | 08:40 |
| zooko | That latter thing is definitely one of those things that I thought was impossible. | 08:40 |
| fluffypony | realcr: the trick is in the circuit, the circuit has to output a value, say 1, if x is the magical proof we expect, and 0 if it isn't | 08:40 |
| zooko | Unfortunately, I need to go now. back in a bit. | 08:40 |
| tromp | amiller: that cant be done SPV style though?! | 08:41 |
| amiller_ | ok thats all i got | 08:41 |
| amiller_ | tromp, i think that last part would require TXO commitments or something | 08:41 |
| amiller_ | well, utxo commitments | 08:41 |
| realcr | fluffypony: And you just need to know ahead of time that x is actually inside the language L, and you do know that ahead of time. Cool. | 08:41 |
| andytoshi | realcr: fluffypony: x is the instance of the problem; a witness w is the "proof" and you have some relation such that (x,w)=1 | 08:41 |
| fluffypony | yup | 08:42 |
| tromp | amiller: yes, those would suffice | 08:42 |
| realcr | I see. I mixed the ideas of witness and instance, but now I get it. | 08:42 |
| realcr | tromp: What does spv stand for? | 08:42 |
| tromp | simple payment verification | 08:42 |
| sipa | realcr: simplified payment verification | 08:42 |
| realcr | sipa: Thanks. | 08:42 |
| sipa | read section 8 of the bitcoin whitepaper | 08:43 |
| andytoshi | realcr: also be aware that the security property is a little weird: it says that if your instance x is -not- in the language, the encryption should be indistinguishable from random. it says nothing about if x -is- in the language, so to build actual cryptosystems you need to introduce other primitives which somehow "disguise" whether or not x is in the language | 08:43 |
| andytoshi | c.f. the original W.E. paper which has no proof of security but otoh is easier to read http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/258 | 08:43 |
| andytoshi | there are a few pages of applications in there where they build public-key encryption, identity-based encryption, etc, from WE | 08:44 |
| fluffypony | http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~sanjamg/classes/cs276-fall14/scribe/lec18.pdf | 08:44 |
| fluffypony | also a nice overview of W.E in general | 08:44 |
| realcr | Do you think it is expected to be somewhat practical? | 08:45 |
| realcr | I always fear that those things are just a far dream. | 08:46 |
| andytoshi | realcr: one day, yes, but we are not close | 08:46 |
| realcr | I mean practical by computation time etc. The math seems to be solid. | 08:46 |
| realcr | I see. | 08:46 |
| amiller_ | realcr, the math is still questionable too tbh | 08:46 |
| realcr | :) | 08:47 |
| sipa | realcr: "the math seems to be solid", i doubt there are many people in the world who could reasonable make that statement | 08:47 |
| sipa | *reasonably | 08:47 |
| andytoshi | my feeling is we should totally scrap this graded-encoding paradigm (as well as multilinear maps for that matter, even if they exist they won't be quantum hard) and think about building arbitrary oblivious circuits from something simpler like lattices | 08:47 |
| amiller_ | the assumptions are kinda out there, the top theory people are basically still exploring whether there's attacks that break the whole thing down or better assumptoins that suffice | 08:47 |
| realcr | I looked at a few pages at random, and the math consequences seemed to be valid :) That's how you probabilistically check proofs. | 08:47 |
| amiller_ | realcr, hahaha :D | 08:47 |
| andytoshi | realcr: the problem is that there are no axioms at the bottom, just super sketchy "assumptions" | 08:48 |
| andytoshi | also haha at PCP :) | 08:48 |
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| instagibbs | assume crypto assumptions are spherical | 09:44 |
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| mrkent_ | What are major reasons why someone wouldn't use default port while running bitcoin node | 11:36 |
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| gmaxwell | Their local network blocks it. Otherwise? I have no suggestion. | 11:38 |
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| maaku | because they don't want incoming DNS seed connections? i don't know | 12:26 |
| gmaxwell | s/DNS seed/ | 12:28 |
| phantomcircuit | maaku, i dont think that would work | 12:28 |
| gmaxwell | / | 12:28 |
| phantomcircuit | if you make outgoing connections iirc you tell your peers about which port you're using | 12:29 |
| gmaxwell | using a non-default port makes other nodes avoidconnecting to you. | 12:29 |
| maaku | phantomcircuit: the DNS seed doesn't report non-standard port addresses | 12:29 |
| phantomcircuit | non default ports are shunned? | 12:29 |
| phantomcircuit | oh | 12:29 |
| phantomcircuit | interesting | 12:29 |
| maaku | why is non-default ports shunned by bitcoind? that's news to me | 12:29 |
| gmaxwell | amiller_: how is witness encryption adifferent from attribute based encryption? | 12:34 |
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| gmaxwell | maaku: to prevent people from making the network into a big nussance of connecting to non-nodes. | 12:38 |
| gmaxwell | maaku: they're only connected to as a last resort if you're unable to get connected for a while (e.g. if the port is blocked outbound for you) | 12:39 |
| maaku | gmaxwell: because the presumption that non-nodes connect via different ports? | 12:40 |
| gmaxwell | I'm not following. | 12:40 |
| maaku | why does it matter what port a node uses? | 12:41 |
| gmaxwell | Bitcoin Core will not connect out to anything except 8333 unless its unable to get connected. This prevents an attack where someone announces, say, bob's fizzle-bop server as a 'node' and then 100,000 bitcoin nodes irritate bob by connecting to him over and over again. | 12:41 |
| gmaxwell | (and then Bob files abuse complaints against random Bitcoin users) | 12:41 |
| Taek | they would connect over and over again? | 12:44 |
| fluffypony | Bob would be like a masternode | 12:46 |
| fluffypony | :-P | 12:46 |
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| maaku | gmaxwell: ok thanks that was my question | 12:50 |
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| phantomcircuit | Taek, no but it would be enough for lots of nodes to try to connect even periodically | 12:58 |
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| adam3us | amiller_: "way worse than fully homomorphic encryption" :( aka impractical, check back in a decade or so? | 13:21 |
| phantomcircuit | horray i've loaded 635000 out of 62297829 transactions into my sql db | 13:21 |
| phantomcircuit | only ~100% more to go | 13:21 |
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| kanzure | phantomcircuit: why are you taking so long? | 13:21 |
| phantomcircuit | kanzure, dat bitcoind rpc yo | 13:22 |
| adam3us | sipa: i think the brands credential scheme gives some indication of why snark-like things might work. a simplish generalisation/extension to schnorr signatures and then you can prove execution of a tiny/simple program (a small boolean circuit) | 13:22 |
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| adam3us | sipa: ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/crypto/publications/CamSta97b.pdf shows how to use brands respresentation problem and tree representations also brands semi-tech short paper http://cypherspace.org/credlib/brands-technical.pdf | 13:25 |
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| maraoz | phantomcircuit: try using the p2p protocol, it's much faster | 13:38 |
| maraoz | (you need to run bitcoind with -txindex option) | 13:38 |
| phantomcircuit | maraoz, uh thanks | 13:39 |
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| phantomcircuit | woo 3% | 14:16 |
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| gmaxwell | maraoz: uhhh txindex shouldn't change _anything_ about the p2p behavior. | 14:18 |
| gmaxwell | if it does, thats a bug. | 14:18 |
| maraoz | gmaxwell: my bad! I thought if a node received 'getdata' for an old tx it would not answer unless it had -txindex on | 14:22 |
| phantomcircuit | it wont answer regardless | 14:23 |
| phantomcircuit | and im using the rpc stuff so i can get bitcoind to decode the transactions for me | 14:23 |
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| maraoz | ah, got it. you could try getting blocks via p2p if you wanted ALL transactions. | 14:24 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] if you just want all stuff(tx, blocks) in a db format, why not use bitpays insight? | 14:34 |
| phantomcircuit | mariorz, yes but then i have to decode them myself | 14:39 |
| phantomcircuit | MRL-Relay, because ew | 14:40 |
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| MRL-Relay | [othe] theres a hystoric sync tool in js which reads the dat files and puts them in a leveldb (can easily modified to put it to whatever db) - just saying | 14:40 |
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| gmaxwell | Does anyone know if ABISprotocol on bct happens to be a new identity of Anonymint? | 16:58 |
| hearn | i think ABISprotocol has been posting to github and bct for a long time (years) | 16:59 |
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| gmaxwell | K. his accoutn was created not that long before anonymint stopped posting. | 17:00 |
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| gmaxwell | Wondered if he was known to be the same before I wasted any more time responding to him. | 17:01 |
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| Luke-Jr | I remember some "ABIS protocol" thing from like 2011 | 17:14 |
| Luke-Jr | wasn't it some kind of wallet protocol thing that never went anywhere? | 17:14 |
| sipa | more a vague idea about wallets and rainbows and unicorns | 17:15 |
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| hearn | yeah calling it a protocol was a bit grand, iirc | 17:16 |
| sipa | https://github.com/ABISprotocol/ABIS#abis | 17:18 |
| gmaxwell | yea, he seemed familar to me. Context was that sybil monitoring network thread. You can see the last few postst there if you can, not really important. | 17:19 |
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| Luke-Jr | [00:15:43] <sipa> more a vague idea about wallets and rainbows and unicorns <-- lol | 17:20 |
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| bramc | Hey everybody | 18:17 |
| bramc | there's something in the IBLT stuff I'm not getting. If I have a transaction and split it up and distribute it in the iblt, how many copies of the different parts of it do I put in there, and where do I put them in? | 18:18 |
| bramc | rusty's post about it gives an example where something is split into two parts, one of which is included twice and one of which is included once, which seems... odd. | 18:19 |
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| kanzure | links please | 18:21 |
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| bramc | kanzure, http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/11/05/Playing-with-invertible-bloom-lookup-tables-and-bitcoin-transactions.html | 18:28 |
| kanzure | i would not have guessed that url | 18:31 |
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| tromp | i wld think you shld only put in single copies. he probably had an extra copy just for educational purposes | 19:47 |
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| bramc | so I'm working through some math on this IBLT thing | 20:10 |
| bramc | If one assumes that all things in the set are the same size, and there are n diffs between the two sets and m copies per diff and k slots, then I figure what you want to focus on is the virality of reveals: that is, the expected number of new reveals to happen from a previous reveal. If that value is greater than 1, you're probably golden, hence leading to the thresholding behavior rusty was so confused by | 20:12 |
| bramc | So I worked through some math and get the formula for that of m(m-1)n(k-m)^(n-1)/k^n | 20:12 |
| bramc | and, uh, it's been a while since I did much calculus, anybody know how to take the derivative of that with respect to m or point me to a web site which does? (I assume wolfram alpha does, but I don't know its syntax) | 20:13 |
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| amiller_ | bramc, http://quickmath.com/webMathematica3/quickmath/calculus/differentiate/advanced.jsp#c=differentiate_advanceddifferentiate&v1=m(m-1)n(k-m)%5E(n-1)%2Fk%5En&v2=m%0A | 20:16 |
| gmaxwell | -(((k-m)^(-2+n)n(k-2*k*m+m^2-m*n+m^2n))/k^n) | 20:16 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: the way it's used for transactions is to break the transactions into parts, thus meeting the same size criteria... | 20:17 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, I don't get the breaking into parts, that seems to make it much harder to reconstitute | 20:18 |
| bramc | Because you need all the parts to reconstruct a transaction | 20:18 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: not an issue that more overhead can't solve. | 20:18 |
| bramc | I'm trying to minimize overhead :-P | 20:18 |
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| bramc | Seriously though, you need all the parts to reconstruct a transaction. Knowing that a transaction part is xored with some other unknown transaction doesn't help you | 20:19 |
| bramc | Thanks for the math. Can somebody find the zeros of that mess quickly? | 20:19 |
| gmaxwell | there are several obvious trivial roots. | 20:21 |
| gmaxwell | uhh | 20:21 |
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| bramc | I'm expanding it now. It's a simple quadratic after getting rid of all the garbage | 20:23 |
| kanzure | .wa roots of -(((k-m)^(-2+n)n(k-2*k*m+m^2-m*n+m^2n))/k^n) | 20:23 |
| yoleaux | roots -((k-m)^(-2+n) n (k-2 k m+m²-m n+m² n))/k^n = 0: k = 0 and Re(n)<0; k!=0 and m = k and Re(n)>1; k² !=k m and n = 0; m² !=m and k² !=k m and n = (-2 k m+k+m²)/(m-m²) | 20:23 |
| gmaxwell | n=(((k*((2*m)-1))-(m*m))/((m*m)-m)) | 20:24 |
| gmaxwell | wow someone got WA to do something useful! amazing. | 20:25 |
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| kanzure | don't celebrate yet, it misinterpreted m^(2n) | 20:25 |
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| gmaxwell | kanzure: darn it somewhere I have a screenshot where I gave it a simple expression and it simplified it to Sum(expression * n_i,i,-Inf,Inf) where n[i] = 1 for 0 and 0 for all other values. | 20:27 |
| gmaxwell | "Gee thanks for that help." | 20:28 |
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| kanzure | yeah i just think of wolframalpha as maybe a little sarcastic sometimes :) | 20:28 |
| bramc | After solving and removing very small terms I get (n+2k+-(n^2+4k^2)^.5)/(2n) | 20:31 |
| bramc | obviously it isn't the plus, so that's (n+2k-(n^2+4k^2)^.5)/2n | 20:32 |
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| bramc | Oh wait, I got it wrong, it's the plus. If we say k=cn, we have (1+2c+(1+4c^2)^.5)/2 | 20:37 |
| bramc | So what it boils down to is that the optimal number of copies has to do with what you expect the ratio of the amount of stuff you have stored with how much space you have | 20:40 |
| bramc | If the ratio is 1, which means you're fucked, it's 2.6, so the actual value should be larger than that | 20:41 |
| bramc | If the ratio is 1.5, in which case you probably aren't fucked, the optimal value is 3.58, and at 1.2, which probably on the edge, it's exactly 3.0 | 20:43 |
| bramc | So that was a lot of math for concluding that the best number of copies is 3 | 20:43 |
| bramc | But I still don't understand why to split into parts at all, except to support multisize, and even there I have an issue with it | 20:43 |
| bramc | Parts should individually self-declare what they are so they can be covered individually and collated later | 20:45 |
| bramc | Anyway, all that math resulted in a nice clear answer of 3, and I see why rusty's implementation is so shit at insertions. More work later, time for me to go home. | 20:46 |
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| smooth | gmaxwell: i dont think abisprotocol is anonymint (but anything is possible). mint is using the nick iamback now | 22:20 |
| gmaxwell | smooth: thanks! | 22:23 |
| bramc | argh, this multiplier never gets above 1. If you want your diff to work, you basically have to get all the pieces right off the bat. | 22:26 |
| bramc | Oh wait, it helps if I multiply by the number I need to multiply by | 22:28 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, minor details | 22:29 |
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| bramc | Okay, running numbers properly I get that the exponential multiplier gets over 1 when m=5 and k=2.4 | 22:36 |
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| bramc | so basically 58% of your IBLT will be wasted, at least compared to theoretical capacity, and the number of copies stored should be 5 | 22:37 |
| bramc | There's a marginal advantage to making any given block have some chance of hashing to 6 places, but it's clearly not worth the complexity | 22:40 |
| bramc | And oh wait, a lot of that overhead is recouped by positions not being used, I'll have to work out how much that saves | 22:43 |
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| * rusty wakes up.... | 22:48 | |
| bramc | Hey rusty! | 22:49 |
| bramc | rusty, As you can see in scrollback I've been doing math and running numbers on IBLTs. | 22:49 |
| rusty | bramc: fixed sizes make the numbers somewhat easier. | 22:50 |
| bramc | It turns out that the thresholding phenomenon you noticed is very real and can be explained straightforwardly | 22:50 |
| rusty | bramc: of course, but kalle didn't see the same threshold. | 22:51 |
| rusty | bramc: the threshold is made more abrupt by my requirement that all parts of a tx be available before removing any of it from the iblt. | 22:51 |
| bramc | rusty, there are a number of things which could potentially cause the phenomenon to go away, the discussions seem to underspecify behavior a bit | 22:52 |
| rusty | bramc: (remember, gavin's proposal had us breaking txs into equal sie parts). | 22:52 |
| gmaxwell | In general I think polynomial set reconciliation is more interesting, since you get more or less optimal communications efficiency and get it consistently; and you also get perfect communications parallelism; but perhaps the performance hit is too big. Having never implemented the rational interpolation I don't have a feel for the performance; but it only needs to be used to communicate ID's and | 22:52 |
| gmaxwell | lengths and then the RS code stuff I described before can take over and that can be very fast (because it can be implemented over GF(2^8) using lookup tables). | 22:52 |
| bramc | rusty, I'd like to assume that transaction parts are self declaring, so they say 'I'm part 1 of transaction Q' and so they can be reconstructed individually and put back together later | 22:52 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, the nice features of IBLT are that it's (a) simple (b) fast (c) requires no interactivity whatsoever | 22:53 |
| rusty | bramc: Yes, but that takes space. There's a trick I noted in the final comment on that post, however, and it's on my TODO. | 22:53 |
| rusty | bramc: each iblt bucket is [txid] [frag number] [data]. (Well, it's not actually txid for <reasons>, but you get the idea). | 22:54 |
| bramc | rusty, well for simplicity I assumed that all txs are equal size, and for analysis purposes I assumed that it's either all insertions or all deletions, there are of course headaches when there's a mix because you get false zeroes | 22:54 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: yes, what I'd described before required no interactivity whatsoever. (assuming you send enough data) as it started as a proposal to improve network convergence time, rather than bandwidth, by being able to send different data to each peer to maximize goodput. | 22:55 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, not sure what you mean by that. It looks like IBLT is most applicable to fast relay networks. And yes it's probably more important for convergence time than bandwidth. | 22:55 |
| gmaxwell | I'm not actually sure how fast the IBLT stuff goes, e.g. does the overhead of trump that the basic operations are faster? probably not, but I'm unsure. | 22:55 |
| rusty | bramc: yeah, I simulated. (Though dumb me, I took txs from the testnet.) | 22:56 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, IBLT stuff is essentially instantaneous | 22:56 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: I'll add "Understand and implement gmaxwell's scheme" to my TODO. | 22:56 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: there are far simpler things that work wonders if _all_ you care about is convergence time (e.g. Matt's protocol) | 22:56 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, this would simplify matt's protocol by making it so the fast relay network doesn't have to maintain states for peers it's talking to or do round trips on synchronization | 22:58 |
| rusty | bramc: well, you have to generate the for-this-iblt-txids for all txs in your mempool. Then you wander over the iblt; in the good case it's almost a single sweep. | 22:58 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, Also refer to my earlier comment about 'I shouldn't be working on this but it's fun' | 22:58 |
| rusty | bramc: matt would still win, and has no failure modes. | 22:58 |
| bramc | Just to clarify: I like matt's protocol better, and will read up on it later | 22:59 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: I mean, matt's protocol relays most blocks as three or for packets or something like that. And the reconstruction is simply copying the data, no calculation at all. No hashing no yadda yadda. It's hard to be faster doing anything else. | 23:00 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: sipa has a better writeup. though he hasn't plugged in all the optional improvements yet. | 23:00 |
| bramc | rusty, the explanation of why the threshold happens is a virality one. Each tx you correct will reduce counts in a few other blocks by one. Each of those has some chance of resulting in a new recoverable transaction. If the expected number of those is greater than one then you'll almost certainly be able to recover everything. If it's less than one you're screwed | 23:02 |
| rusty | bramc: sure, but it's worse if you require N block to be recoverable to make progress. | 23:03 |
| bramc | rusty, what? I'm assuming that you repeatedly recover whatever you happen to be able to recover, and that larger transactions are split into smaller individually recoverable pieces | 23:03 |
| bramc | And I'm ignoring encoding overhead | 23:04 |
| gmaxwell | Key in my fancier scheme is that the source of a block can send fragments round robbin to peers, the fragements are orthorgonal, and (ignoring some linear overhead for 'ID's) each peer can recover as soon as it has the data equal to the missing data (not the difference), and if they don't have enough yet they can get data from the source's peers instead of the source directly. So in the time it | 23:04 |
| gmaxwell | takes a source to send a single full difference, all N of its peers can be fully recovered (assuming bandwidth between the N isn't sharing the same bandwidth limit as the source); and with no round trips needed (except to say 'send me no more'). | 23:04 |
| rusty | bramc: yes, my implementation was dumb, and only recovered a tx if all parts were available :) | 23:04 |
| bramc | rusty, thanks for clarifying that. That's what I assumed given how awfully it performs or insertions | 23:05 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: oy yea, thats derpy. :) | 23:05 |
| rusty | bramc: OTOH, there's the trick that if you find part n of a tx in a bucket with count -1, you can now clear all parts of the tx. | 23:05 |
| bramc | rusty, So I did some math and found that if the number of diffs is n, the number of copies of each transaction is m, and the number of slots is k, then the viral base is m*(m-1)*n*(k-m)^(n-1)/k^n which is almost scale invariant on k and n as long as their ratio remains the same | 23:07 |
| bramc | and optimizing for m, if we say that k=cn, we get m=(1+2*c+(1+4c^2)^.5)/2 | 23:07 |
| rusty | bramc: kalle says k=3 wins https://github.com/kallerosenbaum/bitcoin-iblt/wiki/Diff-count-VS-failure-probability | 23:08 |
| bramc | rusty, kalle is wrong :-P | 23:08 |
| rusty | bramc: we need a corpus to figure that out. | 23:09 |
| bramc | rusty, I have some math which should be worth something :-P | 23:09 |
| bramc | Even in kalle's graphs it says that k=4 and 5 beats 3, but it's 'only' a factor of 2 or something, which looks small on his log scale graphs. | 23:10 |
| bramc | rusty, so plugging in numbers I get that things go over 1 at c=2.4 and m=5 (that's k=5 in the variable names kalle is using) | 23:12 |
| rusty | bramc: ? What | 23:12 |
| bramc | at that point 6 works almost exactly as well | 23:12 |
| rusty | bramc: his graph shows lowest fail prob with k=3, across entire range. | 23:12 |
| bramc | one could argue that a viral base marginally over 1.0 isn't likely to work in practice, so if we want a base of, say, 1.25, we get c=2.8 and k=6 | 23:14 |
| bramc | so, umm, I guess the best number of copies to use is 6 | 23:14 |
| rusty | bramc: I'll have to dig out the paper, but that's larger than the number I read... was one of the IBLT papers. | 23:14 |
| bramc | rusty, I'm quite certain that if you do the overall optimization of getting the best ratio of size to amount recoverable the best is 5 or 6. 3 is clearly far worse | 23:15 |
| bramc | if c=2.8 (that means you have 2.8 times as many entries as diffs) then if you have 3 copies your viral base is .74, meaning you're fucked, and if you use 6 copies your viral base is 1.25, meaning you're clearly recoverable | 23:16 |
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| bramc | If there's a paper which gives values for numbers of copies with a coherent justification I'd love to see it | 23:17 |
| rusty | bramc: Let me step back a moment, make sure we're in sync? | 23:17 |
| bramc | rusty, sure | 23:17 |
| rusty | bramc: c = #number of iblt entries / #things-put-in-iblt ? | 23:18 |
| bramc | rusty, yes | 23:18 |
| bramc | and I'm assuming that each 'thing' fits in exactly one entry | 23:18 |
| rusty | bramc: sure. | 23:19 |
| rusty | bramc: so, you're saying that if you have 2800 buckets, and 1000 things. If each one gets hashed and added 3 times, you're screwed, but if it gets hashed and added 6 times you're OK? | 23:20 |
| bramc | rusty, exactly | 23:20 |
| rusty | bramc: That's easily testable. | 23:21 |
| bramc | rusty, It's because of exponential blow-up. If you do multiple passes through as subsequent things get revealed, you'll find with 3 copies that the number on each pass is about 3/4 what it was on the last pass, where with 5 copies it's about 5/4 | 23:22 |
| rusty | bramc: sure, as long as there's a singleton somewhere to start with. | 23:22 |
| bramc | rusty, I started with the math because it clarifies what's going on | 23:22 |
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| bramc | There will be plenty of singletons. The chances of not getting any at that scale is exceedingly small | 23:23 |
| bramc | Like, effectively nonexistent | 23:23 |
| rusty | http://conferences.sigcomm.org/sigcomm/2011/papers/sigcomm/p218.pdf | 23:24 |
| bramc | rusty, I'm also assuming that it's all insertions or all deletions. Things get more complicated if there's a mix | 23:24 |
| rusty | bramc: yes, I'm assuming the "false singleton" case (n insertions, n-1 deletions, or vice versa) is noise. | 23:25 |
| bramc | rusty, That's probably close to true, but implementing it properly requires a bunch of interesting backtracking | 23:25 |
| rusty | bramc: 6.1 of that paper says 3 or 4. | 23:26 |
| bramc | rusty, Apparently this is the paper which got later papers saying 'n hash functions' instead of 'n copies' which confused someone in this channel so much :-P | 23:27 |
| rusty | bramc: yeah, I don't think we want to backtrack. But there's a trick where the frag counter is offset by the hash of the txid, which means that you can easily spot more likely candidates. | 23:27 |
| rusty | bramc: damn, baby feeding time.... | 23:27 |
| bramc | rusty, them using size 50 is probably throwing things off a lot | 23:30 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, bleh validating just the last 2016*4 blocks is going to take > 1 hour | 23:31 |
| phantomcircuit | (with openssl) | 23:32 |
| bramc | I suppose it's possible that I'm also being pessimistic in that I'm assuming that the viral base needs to be higher than it does, because some fraction of everything will be singletons right off the bat, and with each thing you remove the viral base goes up | 23:32 |
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| bramc | So my estimates are overly pessimistic that way | 23:32 |
| phantomcircuit | strike that it took | 23:33 |
| phantomcircuit | 38 minutes | 23:33 |
| brisque | phantomcircuit: I hear validation is faster if you return True ;) | 23:33 |
| phantomcircuit | could be worse | 23:33 |
| phantomcircuit | brisque, you joke but i've done just that before | 23:34 |
| brisque | phantomcircuit: I wasn't joking. | 23:34 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, for what it's worth, they're claiming that c=1.4 is recoverable, and by my calculations at that size 3 copies should come closer to recovery than 4 | 23:34 |
| bramc | I meant to direct that last statement to rusty, sorry | 23:34 |
| phantomcircuit | brisque, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5842 | 23:36 |
| phantomcircuit | bleh merge conflicts | 23:37 |
| rusty | bramc: math is nice. Testing is nicer :) | 23:38 |
| rusty | bramc: I promise I will re-test once all the other variables are eliminated. | 23:38 |
| bramc | rusty, running the numbers does give a useful intuitive insight for what's happening. I knew that my numbers were pessimistic but apparently they're way more pessimistic than I thought | 23:39 |
| brisque | phantomcircuit: aw, I was expecting insanity=1 where it does no ECDSA tests at all | 23:39 |
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| bramc | rusty, my numbers also indicate that giving some chance of 2 or 4 is unlikely to make a measurable difference | 23:41 |
| phantomcircuit | brisque, without the last commit it can randomly do that! | 23:41 |
| phantomcircuit | horray! | 23:41 |
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| rusty | bramc: Oh, I like your count optimization, too. My statement about compressing on the wire was brainfart, because the numbers in the transmitted iblt are large, of course. | 23:41 |
| bramc | rusty, You also have to factor in how much compression you get from entries being empty, I'm going to run that next, it looks like once you do that you're astoundingly close to optimal efficiency | 23:42 |
| rusty | bramc: entries being empty? | 23:42 |
| bramc | rusty, yeah | 23:42 |
| phantomcircuit | blargh | 23:42 |
| bramc | If you use c=1.4 and 3 copies, a significant fraction of all entries will have literally nothing in them | 23:43 |
| rusty | bramc: confused. Entries may be empty after iblt subtraction, but they're not for transmission. | 23:43 |
| bramc | Oh duh, you're right, never mind, forgot about the subtraction step | 23:43 |
| phantomcircuit | derp i screwed that up | 23:43 |
| phantomcircuit | it'll be easier to start fresh than to fix this git history ... | 23:44 |
| bramc | rusty, One can of course compress the numbers, but yuck | 23:44 |
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| rusty | bramc: yeah :( It's kind of fascinating to send around a totally clogged up (and thus useless) bloom filter, and magic it into something useful :) | 23:44 |
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| bramc | rusty, It is a fun trick, hence my messing with it. I'm less negative on it now that I know the overhead is more like 40% than 150% | 23:47 |
| rusty | bramc: the bias towards "extra" vs. "missing" txs is also the right way (ie. perfect network => I'll have more txs than you did when you solved block). | 23:47 |
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| bramc | rusty, I'm not convinced that there's a tradeoff to be had there. Forcing pieces to be interrelated gets lousy insertion performance without much benefit to deletion performance | 23:49 |
| rusty | bramc: if you don't fragment txs, how do you get large txs? Variable size buckets mean you're basically encoding most of it multiple times in the clear. | 23:54 |
| bramc | rusty, You could make a separate data structure of just ids with no content which was nominally bigger for the purposes of finding deletions, that would likely make performance overall better when there are more deletions than insertions | 23:54 |
| bramc | rusty, I'm saying fragment transactions, but do it in a way where the fragments can be recovered individually rather than being directly interdependent | 23:55 |
| rusty | bramc: hmm, in what way does gavin's <id><counter> prefix not do that? | 23:56 |
| bramc | rusty, I don't see anything about <id><counter> in your post. Maybe a comment is saying something about it. | 23:58 |
| rusty | bramc: struct keySum { u8 id[6]; u16 index; u8 frag[8]; } key; | 23:59 |
| rusty | bramc: which was in the original gist. | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Sat Mar 14 00:00:09 2015 | ||
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