2015-03-14.log

--- Log opened Sat Mar 14 00:00:09 2015
--- Day changed Sat Mar 14 2015
bramcindex is the fragment number?00:00
rustybramc: yep.00:00
rustybramc: turns out that[8] is *way* too low (little surprise).00:00
bramcI missed that00:00
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rustybramc: did  you read the hashkeySum stuff in the original IBLT paper?00:01
bramcrusty, No I have a lot of trouble reading papers00:01
bramcI've never quite learned academicese, so when I read papers I tend to nibble at parts of them and rederive stuff and ask people questions00:02
rustybramc: OK, well it's a pretty simple idea.  You add a 16-bit (?) field with the hash of the key.  That way you get an extra check if a bucket is really a singleton.00:02
bramcOh that reminds me, I spoke to the lightning guys and the answer to how they can get around the apparent hard limit of needing to redo everything when the timeout time happens is that they don't. That requires an op_relative_time_verify using a much simpler but still highly technical protocol which they *ahem* are now going to write up clearly00:03
bramcrusty, How is that not just making the id longer?00:04
rustybramc: you can't tell if an id is valid until after reconstructing the parts.  This is a *bucket* hash.00:04
bramcrusty, I'm pretty sure that a separate 'ids only' iblt is a big performance win when there are significant numbers of deletions00:05
rustybramc: I00:05
rustybramc: I'm pretty sure it's not, since that's the easy case :)00:05
gmaxwellbramc: the problem you run into is that the efficiecny of iblt goes way down if there is too little data. (e.g. because you don't get enough singletons to decode)00:05
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rustybramc: deletions are easy to spot: you only need one fragment.  additions are hard, since you need all of them.00:06
bramcrusty, honestly it sounds like a waste of space, I think some careful implementation of guessing which things are singletons and backing up if you notice there's an error will handle that well in practice00:07
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rustybramc: Oh, I agree with hashkeySum being a waste of space.  You can get most of the effect by offseting that "index" field by the hash of the fragid.00:08
bramcgmaxwell, But if you have an ids-only one it (a) needs only a single id for a large transaction with multiple fragments (b) needs only id space for each entry anyway00:09
rustybramc: and then removing the singletons with the lowest-offset index field first (most likely to be valid).00:09
bramcso you can make an ids only iblt with a lot more entries in it, and you'll lean on mostly that one for deletions, and the other one for mostly insertions00:09
bramcrusty, I seem to not be explaining this important point about fragmenting properly00:10
rustybramc: backtracking could get very expensive for the we're going to fail anyway case, I think.00:10
rustybramc: no.  How do you propose to fragment?00:10
bramcMy proposal for fragmenting is that the fragments be treating for reconstruction purposes like separate pieces: hashed separately from each other and recovered separately from each other00:11
bramcso you start out with a bunch of transactions, then fragment them to make separate entries, then store everything in the iblt in an abstraction layer which doesn't really know much about fragmenting, then recover everything in a layer which also doesn't know much about fragmenting, and finally de-frag to get the original transactions back00:12
rustybramc: Sure, and your implemention will suck.00:12
bramcrusty, why will it suck?00:12
bramcit will be much, much better at handling large transactions00:13
rustybramc: no, AFAICT that's exactly Gavin's scheme.00:13
rustybramc: except without the optimization for removal of known txs.00:13
rustybramc: which is *really* winful.00:14
bramcrusty, so why do you say that large transactions create recovery problems? All that should matter is the number of fragments00:14
rustybramc: Yep, but you're missing an opportunity to cheat!00:14
bramcwhat is this cheating you speak of? And what is the business about optimization for removal of known transactions?00:15
gmaxwellbramc: if you know that it doesn't contain fragment A  and A is part of txn X, then you magically know it doesn't contain any of X's other fragments. It's a very clever optimization.00:15
rustybramc: ie.  when you do recovery, and find an addition of some fragment, you *know* the rest of the fragments, and can immediatly remove them too.00:15
rustygmaxwell: thanks!00:15
bramcOh I thought that trick was too obvious too mention00:16
rustybramc: for my (admittedly flawed) results this means you can handle about 10x as many "I added a tx you didn't" as "you added a tx I didn't".00:16
bramcObviously once you've eliminated a fragment you eliminate the rest of the transaction00:17
rustybramc: that's exactly the opposite of your "abstraction layer" line above.00:18
bramcrusty, I'm pretty sure that if you fiddle with the numbers right a separate ids only data structure will still be a win00:18
bramcrusty, It's a somewhat leaky abstraction layer :-)00:18
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gmaxwellbramc: there is a way to make 'ids only' a win. But it's a bigger change than just that.00:18
gmaxwell(to get that win you don't even use iblt to encode the rest, you encode the rest with a scheme that needs to send size linear to the missing data only-- an erasure code)00:19
rustybramc: as I said, it's optimizing the already-easy case.00:19
bramcOh right you need ids only to not be redundant with the existing data structure, so you need 'the other half of this entry' or something like that00:19
bramcgmaxwell, I don't follow00:19
bramcrusty, easy schmeazy, overhead is overhead00:20
gmaxwellThats okay, I've sort of giving up explaining it. Next time I come up with something I'll have to call it a hash table or something to all the more engineery types aren't so afraid of diving in. :P00:20
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bramcgmaxwell, It seems like in principle it should be possible to build these things more efficiently, for information theoretic reasons, but ECC doesn't seem to exactly match00:21
gmaxwellbramc: it matches exactly once you know the IDs in the set and the lengths of the unknown entities. :)00:22
bramcgmaxwell, true but for things with such sparse holes you need to use tornado codes for it to perform at all00:24
bramcMaybe you could use iblt for finding the ids and lengths and ecc for filling in the data?00:24
rustybramc: feel free to play with my code on github.  Since you've reminded me of it, I might do so too:) https://github.com/rustyrussell/bitcoin-iblt-test00:25
gmaxwellbramc: you can. (or polynomial set reconciliation, which is information theoretically optimal)00:25
bramcgmaxwell, aren't tornado codes very close to optimal and very efficient?00:26
gmaxwellbramc: luby's later work (fontain codes) are more interesting.  Though sipa crunched numbers and it looks like RS codes actually work fine.  My "or" above was an alterntive to using iblt for the IDs.00:27
gmaxwellIBLT is to polynomial set reconciliation as  a LT fountain code is to a Reed-Solomon erasure code.00:28
bramcOh I see. I didn't quite parse that 'polynomial set reconciliation' is a form of set reconciliation00:28
bramcYes that's obvious when I actually read the term00:28
bramcSo in that case you expand your ids to be id+length and do polynomial set reconciliation on those, then do ECC on the whole string00:29
bramcThat seems much more mathematically elegant. Less of a fun hack for the engineers to play with though.00:30
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bramcI think I've now gotten enough familiarity with iblt and related concepts that I can stop worrying about it.00:31
gmaxwellI've not played with implementing iblt myself, but I had tremendous fun implementing fountain codes a while back, and they're pretty similar.00:32
bramcAren't fountain codes patent encumbered?00:32
gmaxwellYup, or at least there are patents in that space. (I actually noted that on the writeup, and mentioned alternatives)00:33
gmaxwell(there may also be a non-public patent application for iBLT as of yet, papers are new enough that there could be; and the author has filed patents previously)00:36
bramcOn the expansion of the ids before doing polynomial set reconciliation: It you wouldn't just tack on bits of length, you overwrite a variable amount using omega encoding00:38
bramcAlso I think the earlier confusion about difficulty of larger transactions was that I thought the claim was being made that larger transactions are harder to insert, because there's a dumb way of screwing that up, but the claim was that larger transactions are easier to delete, which is sort of the opposite claim and also true.00:40
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johnguestspartancoin is the name02:39
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sipajohnguest: not here02:43
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Muiswith bitcoin you are 'allowed' to mine a block when some condition (difficulty is met)04:12
Muisand other peers are able to check that condition immediately, but also years later04:12
Muisbut suppose there was a second conditiion04:12
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Muisand other peers can check for that right now, but will not be able to re-check it in the future04:13
Muiswould that make the network insecure by design, or is there some way the network can record that they agreed today?04:13
siparecording that they agreed is not enough04:14
Muismmhh04:14
sipaalso, what is the point?04:14
Muisi have an idea04:14
sipawhat is the benefit?04:14
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Muisits kind of complicated, but you can compare it to something like:04:16
Muissuppose the chain draws random numbers, and only miners that are connected with an IP address that match the number are privileged to mine. then the whole network can just refuse to relay new blocks from other IPs, and it would be pretty secure. But for new joiners to the network, they can never verify that it was actually relayed by that IP04:17
Muis(my idea has nothing to do with IPs but I try to make it simple)04:18
siparefusing to accept an otherwise valid block is a really bad kdea, unless you know that others will reject it too04:19
MuisI assume that the majority is honest04:19
Muisno04:20
Muisi must say it differently04:20
MuisI dont assume the majority is honest, but I dont mind being on a fork as long as it is the fork of the honest ones :)04:21
sipawe do have something similar in bitcoin already04:21
sipanamely the maximum timestamp04:21
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sipabut that doesn't have the same problem as it is only temporary blocking04:21
Muishow do you mean temporary04:22
Muisthat suppose those blocks ended up in the chain04:22
sipaif time passes, a too high timestamp becomes valid04:22
Muisthe chain would still be valid04:22
Muisyes ok04:22
Muisnow I think about it04:23
siparight, it doesn't affect the ultimately valid chain, only the one we choose to accept right now04:23
Muisthats also no problem in my case04:23
MuisI just want to make it highly unlikely04:23
sipaso what is your idea04:23
Muisand I guess its very unlikely for too high timestamps to end up in the chain?04:23
sipayes, because few nodes will (quickly) accept them04:24
Muisdo nodes also actively block other nodes who broadacast invalid timestamps? or does it not go that far?04:24
sipano04:25
sipanot afaik04:25
Muisokay this is my idea:04:25
Muisbut its a long story, so if you are in a hurry say it04:25
sipawhat are you trying to accomplish?04:26
sipaif it's long, maybe write it up somewhere, and post a link04:27
sipaso others can read it later04:27
MuisI want to mix proof of work with something new: location. Locations are something weird in digital space, because the concept does not exist. But still its very important: your bitcoins can only be in 1 location at the same time.04:28
sipaok04:29
MuisIt basicly boils down to this:04:29
MuisPeers publish their GPS locations, and every 10 minutes a different location is allowed to mine. Miners try to pool with peers from the same country (based on the publish gps location, which may be fake). Now after they joined the pool, they ping all the peers and sort them by latency, after they found the peer with the lowest latency, they can be pretty04:35
Muissure that the found someone who is very close to them. They record a vote in the chain saying: I dont know where peer A is, but I claim that he is closer to me than B, C and D, etc.04:35
brisquewhat stops the miners from just lying?04:36
brisquenobody could tell if they are right, wrong, or just mislead.04:36
TaekMuis: how do you sort by latency? What's to stop a massive mining pool from having nodes in 500 locations that can all respond with low latency, but tap into the higher powered miner?04:37
TaekMining takes a long time anyway, nobody is going to recognize an extra 200ms when a block is found04:38
MuisAfter that you send POW prefixed with the IP of that peer, to that peer. If he wants to pair with you, he sends POW back based on what you send him, and you continue this proces with other peers (this last step I must describe in some document or else its gets too long). But the proof now is that if one of you lied, other pairs will will the block because04:38
Muisthey can do faster POW because the ping between the hosts is 140 ms instead of 11 ms for example.04:38
brisquealso note that as the crow flies is not how the internet works. you can have in some cases people who are 100 meters apart but have to transverse half a country for TCP packets.04:39
MuisTaek: you cannoit have 500 miners in one location04:39
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MuisTaek: Because you have to transfer the results forth/back between the country of the fake node, and the country of the real miner04:40
Muisand if you do that, you always will be slower than miners who are really located in that country and do not fake04:40
Muisif your datacenter or mining rack is 500 KM away, you already have 5 millisecond extra latency04:40
Muisand you will never mine a block04:40
Taekwhat determines when a block has been found?04:41
Muisbecause those 5 milliseconds are amplified04:41
Muisthe difficulty, but its a different difficulty as with bitcoin because it depends on two conditions04:41
Muiswhat it comes down to:04:42
brisqueagain physical location and latency are loosely linked. even in the absence of other problems, you can't determine location like that. if I ping my neighbour it's a 150ms+ round trip, even though we are physically in the same place.04:42
Muisthe network select two random GPS locations: you try to form a chain with pow from country A to country B, and if you can provide a valid chain, then that chain allows you to broadcast the block, and a new block starts04:43
TaekFor the sake of science I'm happy enough assuming a spherical Internet04:43
Muisbrisque: that doesnt matter.. it just means that if you want to team-mine with your neighbour, he is a bad partner04:44
TaekWhat determines if a node is allowed to mine?04:45
Muisit doesnt matter when a peer is slower than he should04:45
Muisbecause people fake slowness04:45
Muisit matters that they cannot fake speed04:45
Taekso, say we pick Chicago and NY as the two GPS locations04:45
brisqueif I wanted to "mine" with anybody I'm a bad partner. it's 70ms just to get to my ISPs network let alone outside.04:45
Taekhow do you know that the peers forming the mining chain are in Chicago and NY?04:46
Taekwhy not have 1 datacenter in SF do all of the mining and just say that it was 2 datacenters?04:46
Taekit's quite likely that the biggest datacenter in the world will have more power than the two random locations you picked combined04:46
Muisthats impossible04:46
Taekwhich part?04:47
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Muisthe peers are all split according to small regions, so if you do what you say, then all peers in region Chicago and NY will vote that they never saw you in their peer-list, and all the peers along the path will say that too.04:48
Muisits not like treechains that every region mines a different chain04:49
Muisthey mine the same chain as other regions, its just that they prefix their hashes with another region-code04:49
Muisand they will reject blocks which have their region-code, but contains peers they do not recognize04:50
Taekbut what stops me from bribing peers in chicago to say that they saw me in the peer list? And what happens if I make 10,000 fake nodes that all say they're in Chicago?04:50
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Muisif you bring 10.000 fake nodes that all claim to be in Chicago04:51
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Muisit doesnt work, because the latency to the datacenter will make them loose the race04:51
Muisbut suppose the 10.000 are really in chicago04:51
Taekthey don't have mining power, they're just endorsing the idea that my datacenter is in chicago04:52
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Muisit still wont work, because every block a different region is selected, so even though you represent > 51% of the hashrate, and also > 51% of the nodes, you can never use it to mine a block more than once every X blocks. (X= number of regions)04:53
Muisif they are just endorsing an idea it will never work04:53
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Muisbecause they have to form a path from that region to another? if they have high latency in the Chicago area, how will they ever form a chain to new york the fastest to win the race?04:54
Taekthey aren't forming a chain to NY. My 10,000 in Chicago says my datacenter in SF is in Chicago, and my 10,000 in NY say my datacenter is in NY. So my datacenter pretends to be two datacenters, one in each location, and really it's just getting sub-millisecond latency04:55
Taekwhile using the full power for each04:56
Taekwining the race is easy if I can make people believe that I'm in a location that I'm not04:56
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Muisthe proof of work is the path from region A to region B, so you need to do the POW not only with your partner-peer in Chicago, but that hash must travel trough all region-codes between those two cities, every time using the same partner-hashing. So you dont need datacenters in Chicago and NY, you need datacenters in all towns and villages between those04:58
Muiscities.04:58
Muisand every node that is part of the winning path, earns a small reward04:59
brisquehow do you prove to other people that it transversed that route?04:59
Muisbecause they can verify that for themselves?04:59
* brisque blinks05:00
brisquehow.05:00
Muisthey just ask a random peer in country A: do you know something in the path called X?05:00
Muis*someone05:00
brisqueI don't think you understand the sybil problem. we should take this to #bitcoin.05:00
MuisI do05:00
Muisbut I dont explain myself wel, because they can also verify that from the path alone05:01
Muissince it contains pow based on the IP's in the chain05:01
* brisque rolls eyes05:01
TaekIf you are in London, watching all of this, how do you decide which peers are or are not in NY?05:02
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Taeklol05:02
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MuisTaek: because all past history in the chain is basicly a record of pow-votes for locations, so if you take that data, you can reconcstruct a large world-map with estimated positions of nodes with a reasonable accury. its exactly how GPS triangluaton works05:03
Taekthat only works if the majority of hashing power has been honest the whole time05:04
Taekbut security is worse than that, because most of your hashing power is idle most of the time05:04
TaekIf one big miner starts from block 1 and constructs an alternate view of reality where his "nodes" are scattered all over the world, and they're all endorsing each other, and providing fake timestamps etc.05:05
Taekhe can get a much larger/more difficult blockchain much faster05:05
Muisthat doesnt work05:05
Taekeven without 51% of global hashing power05:05
Muisbecause a client can read that chain05:05
Muisand calculate where his own location is according to that chain05:06
Muisand if its own position mismatches, its a bad chain05:06
TaekThat's called subjective consensus05:06
Muishow do you mean05:07
Taekif each client is deciding for themselves which chain is valid based on data that only they know (their own location), you're going to have problems05:07
Muisno its only for when they are in doubt, normally they dont have to do it like that05:08
Muisand they should never be in doubt if they follow the protocol05:08
Taekjust the fact that you have subjective rules though opens up an entire world of hardfork risks05:08
Taekit's unreasonable to assume that miners won't try to lie about their location, because there's clearly a large profit incentive for doing so05:09
MuisI dont assume that05:10
Taekthen you acknowledge that sometimes clients will be using subjective rules?05:13
Muisno not really, but I must make a better write-up05:16
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Muisfirst, they will never be able to join the country-pool from that location, because other peers from that country will not relay and disconnect them (based on ping times, ip adress, hostname, etc.). and each region is also connected to their neighbouring regions, so if you need to travel your fake work accross, nobody on that path will relay for you05:17
Muissecond, even if you try to do it anyway, you will loose the race, because the path with the least latency will win, and you cannot magicly transport your asics to that country or city05:18
Muisso having a sybil group of fake nodes is not impossible, its just that their outisde IP address will never geo-locate to that region, and their latency is too high to ever win05:19
Muisand you cannot change region with every block05:20
Muisbecause existing pow for one region stays valid for some time, so if you join the region AFTER its public which region is start or endpoint of the path, then you will have a disadvantage compared to the people who were already commited to that region in the hour before05:23
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Muisso your point of 'most hashing power is idle most of the time' is not really true, its just that they are already kind of preparing for when their region is picked05:25
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Muisand if the path is from Germany to Spain, and you are from region Belgium, you are still allowed to form a valid pow-path as long as it contains the start- and endpoint. but most likely you will not win, because nodes who happen to live in the right country can form a shorter path05:28
Muisso you will only win if you are faster, even though your path was longer05:29
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MuisI think the beauity of this scheme is that honest miners will only have to 50% of the work, because they form couples all the time. And dishonest miners need to do twice the work, because they need to form pairs with themselves, essentially doing twice the effort with the same net result.05:37
Muisi never saw anything like that before05:37
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dgenr8Muis: what benefits does this scheme deliver, if it worked?09:21
dgenr8re mining, i've been flashing on a mental picture enzymes replicating a strand of DNA09:22
dgenr8the reality is amazing http://www.dnalc.org/resources/3d/04-mechanism-of-replication-advanced.html09:22
dgenr8"how the sausage is made" is so complex, but the result it so simple09:23
Muisdgenr8: providing an incentive for geographically decentralized mining09:23
dgenr8Muis: why?09:23
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Muisdgenr8: so that people dont need asics anymore to win a block, and making the network more secure as Bitcoin: since 51 percent attack is much harder to pull off09:25
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MuisAs it requires not only to have 51 percent of the hashrate09:26
MuisBut to have that amount on each possible geographical location09:27
MuisSo with 255 countries/regions thats 255 times the hashrate09:27
Muis*12709:28
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kanzuredgenr8: i have spent a great deal of time thinking about polymerases... http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/09:30
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MuisI once read that the DNA of one person is 650 MB of data09:31
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MuisSo you one cd-rom is enough to describe you09:32
Luke-JrMuis: uh, no. DNA is only the biological blueprint, it doesn't describe anything beyond that.09:32
kanzureand also the lifecycle is not determined by dna anyway09:33
kanzure(there's an initial state that is maintained outside of dna, sort of)09:33
MuisLuke-Jr: i can deduct how you look like based on that09:34
sipaMuis: there is also mitochondrial DNA09:35
MuisBut only if you are african or chinese, nothing specific ofcourse09:35
Luke-JrMuis: only very little about how I look. most people wear clothes, some have scars from their experiences, some dye their hair, etc09:35
sipaMuis: what does race have anything to do with it?09:35
Muissipa: you can deduct that from DNA09:36
sipaoh, you mean you can determine race09:36
sipai read it as "you can only determine anything if they are chinese or african"09:36
Luke-Jrlol09:36
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MuisBut i dont mean race because East european is not really a race09:37
MuisBut more where they were born09:37
Luke-Jreh, that'd be hard. people travel..09:38
kanzurethis is boring09:38
MuisDont know the word in english for it09:38
dgenr8anyway, an idea like Muis's (for better or worse) is just an adjustment to the "polymerase" machinery.  it's clear that something has tweaked and adjusted it infintely already, it's just one more tweak09:38
sipaMuis: ethnicity09:38
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MuisTnx09:39
MuisBut suppose you digitize your DNA and store those 650 MB in the chain09:40
kanzurethere's no reason to do that09:41
kanzuremost dna is redundant, and you can safely store just the differences (polymorphisms)09:41
MuisHow hard would it be for people to verify its me, or does dna testing take days in a lab?09:41
kanzurethere's nothing in the dna that determines whether it is you09:41
Elielare there other reasons to avoid the mini private key format than reduced key length? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mini_private_key_format (by, the way, the wikipage talks about Mt.Gox still)09:41
sipaMuis: also, what does putting it in a chain gain you?09:41
MuisA way to link my identitiy like a web of trust09:42
kanzuredna is not identity -_-09:42
sipayou can do that without a blockchain09:42
kanzureif dna was identity then twins would be impossible. and they exist.09:42
MuisMy twin may open my wallet09:43
sipamake a gpg key, have an identity with a hash of your serialized dna in it09:43
MuisBut no one else09:43
kanzuredna is not a private key09:43
sipasign it09:43
sipaif you want to prove to someone you're you, have them do a dns test, and give them the full dns sequence to compare with09:43
MuisI can make a private key based on my DNA09:43
sipathat's pointless09:43
kanzuresipa: dna tests do not give you guarantees like that09:43
Muis99.9999 garantuee09:44
sipakanzure: i know; but even if we assume dns was 100% constant throughout your body and your life, mutastions didn't happen, and twins didn't exist09:44
sipaeven then there is no fricking point to put it in a blockchain09:44
Muiswhy not09:44
kanzuresipa: i think some people are just really upset that identity doesn't work and that they have been lied to :/09:44
MuisMaybe i loose my wallet09:44
Taekit's bad for privacy. (i kid)09:44
sipaMuis: i just gave you an 100% equivalent scheme09:44
MuisYeah i dont reallyneed it to back it up09:45
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kanzuredna is a bad idea for private key material because most dna is shared between almost all life we have ever known about09:46
MuisHaha09:46
MuisGood point09:46
dgenr8and you leave copies of your private key on everything you touch09:46
Taek^09:46
MuisCould the process of matching DNA in a databank be potentially POW, or is it hard to verify the match?09:48
dgenr8Holy crap. The incoming strand spins at 10,000 RPM.  Must invent massively parallel organic miner.09:49
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kanzureMuis: i recommend learning some biology stuff first09:50
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Molecular%20Biology%20of%20the%20Cell%20-%204th%20edition.pdf09:50
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Primer%20for%20Synthetic%20Biology.pdf09:51
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Molecular%20biology%20of%20the%20gene%20(Watson,%20Baker,%20Bell,%20Gann,%20Levine,%20Losick%20-%202004%20-%205th%20ed.%20-%20Pearson).pdf09:51
MRL-Relay[tacotime] I remember those text books09:51
Muiskanzure: i hate biology so i hoped u might knew the answer by chance09:51
MRL-Relay[tacotime] DNA is generally not super stable09:51
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MRL-Relay[tacotime] because of polymerase errors09:51
MRL-Relay[tacotime] so you'd have to have a high redundancy09:52
kanzuretacotime: dna is unstable for other reasons, some polymerases have error checking and much lower error rates09:52
kanzuretacotime: for example, dna has rarely been known to survive for more than 2 million years09:52
MRL-Relay[tacotime] well, yeah, but it's not like it's RNA09:53
MRL-Relay[tacotime] i've pcr'd from template samples stored at -20C for a couple of decades with no issue09:53
kanzureyes... if you look at rna wrong, your project explodes.... or something.09:54
MRL-Relay[tacotime] as long as you keep it nuclease free, frozen, and in buffer, it's pretty happy09:54
MRL-Relay[tacotime] yeah don't even get me started on rna isolation, i spent enough time tortured by reverse transcriptase protocols09:54
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MRL-Relay[fluffypony] ah yes, reverse transcriptase something something09:55
kanzuretacotime: i would appreciate your commentary regarding https://groups.google.com/group/enzymaticsynthesis09:55
MRL-Relay[fluffypony] the best kind of tase09:55
MRL-Relay[tacotime] kanzure: is this some kind of group where computer engineers develop theoretical biochemical protocols?09:56
kanzuretacotime: more specifically the goal of that group is enzymatic dna synthesis (without phosphoramidite chemistry).. my dna synthesizer suuuucks: https://www.takeitapart.com/guide/9409:57
MRL-Relay[tacotime] ehm09:58
MRL-Relay[tacotime] phosphoramidite chem is fine... just make short sequences with small overlaps and use enzymes to fill in/stitch until you get the length you require09:58
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MRL-Relay[tacotime] we used to just straight up synth plasmids with thousands of base pairs for not too much money09:59
MRL-Relay[tacotime] and that was only a year ago09:59
kanzureyes but i don't want to spend $40M/genome or whatever... i want $1/genome.09:59
MRL-Relay[tacotime] oh09:59
MRL-Relay[tacotime] you want something that prints millions of base pairs?09:59
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kanzureyep... so i have been looking into something more like http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/synthesis/Synthesis%20-%20Microfluidic%20PicoArray%20synthesis%20of%20oligodeoxynucleotides%20and%20simultaneous%20assembling%20of%20multiple%20DNA%20sequences%20(10%20kb).pdf10:00
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kanzure(using DMD projectors, spatial light modulation, etc)10:00
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MRL-Relay[tacotime] is this your day job?10:00
kanzuremy day job is ledgerx10:01
MRL-Relay[tacotime] artificial chromosome production is usually via yeast10:01
kanzuresure10:01
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dgenr8dunno why it took so long to figure out how this stuff works.  you can see it all right there in the video ;)10:02
MRL-Relay[tacotime] ...i wouldn't recommend stepping too far outside of the biological systems for something like this. to stabilize massive amounts of dna you usually use histones/etc too.10:03
MRL-Relay[tacotime] i was very good at sheering whole genomes after chloroform/phenol extracting them. keeping them in one piece when they're non-compacted is a nightmare.10:04
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MRL-Relay[tacotime] anyway, this is pretty OT... you can get in touch with me at dev.mc2@gmail.com if you want to discuss this in length. all my experience will probably be practical lab stuff, though.10:06
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fluffyponyaltcoin whitepapers in a nutshell: http://i.imgur.com/2WuM3pW.jpg11:40
belcherwould read again11:43
realcrfluffypony: It's great :)11:46
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Muisfluffypone: nice!12:21
Muisbtw: I listened to your podcast12:21
Muisit was 6 hours long or so it felt12:22
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Muisbut very interesting things about Monero12:22
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amiller_i like the leakage one better fluffypony12:45
amiller_there's a whole journal for this junk :p http://www.anagram.com/jcrap/12:45
fluffyponyMuis: yeah 3.5 hours, was crazy long:)12:46
fluffyponyamiller_: LOL - the Journal of Craptology!12:46
MRL-Relay[tacotime] http://www.anagram.com/jcrap/Volume_8/heatherweight.pdf12:54
MRL-Relay[tacotime] oh dear12:54
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fluffypony"The author is grateful to Antonio Banderas for inspiration. It was while watching his performance as Zorro that the zero function first surfaced as an idea for an encryp- tion algorithm. Previous meditations on his co-star had led to consideration of the zeta function ζ(s) = Σ∞ 1 , which did not work nearly so well."13:15
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kanzurelink to the six hour podcast?13:35
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Muishttps://www.mixcloud.com/dogedradio/monero-coin-interview/13:47
Muisthat fluffy needs so many hours just to explain Monero's basics, says enough :D13:47
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gmaxwellfluffypony: you've seen the youtube video related to that chicken-chicken thing, right?13:49
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gmaxwellalso if that were a altcoin whitepaper it would end with "chicken chicken, chicken. Chicken Profit!"13:51
fluffyponylol13:55
Muisgmaxwell: link?13:55
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kanzureabove.14:01
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gmaxwellMuis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_-1d9OSdk14:19
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fluffyponyhttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=990285.new#new15:04
kanzure.title15:04
yoleaux[ANN] [CHK] Chicken | chicken. chickens. chicken. | RC Chicken15:04
phantomcircuitfluffypony, please tell me they have a working client15:05
fluffyponyphantomcircuit: I haven't even started on the source code15:05
fluffyponyI figured I'd wait until someone creates DarkChicken15:05
fluffyponyand then I'd retro-fork that back15:05
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phantomcircuitfluffypony, lol the only reply15:08
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amiller_Muis, fluffypony, this is the craptology equivalent of the chicken talk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89K3j_Rsbco its a panel discussion on leakage, featuring DJB and moti yung and ian goldberg15:41
fluffypony*clicks*15:42
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fluffyponylol this is awesome15:47
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kanzurewin 216:59
kanzurewhoops :(16:59
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heathpetertodd: still wanting to play with your smartcolors library17:36
heathpetertodd: good news! i might be able to annoy you about this in person next week! :P17:36
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MRL-Relay[surae] so, I think I have developed a method of testing whether recent block arrival times have been manipulated (either by user computers having an incorrect time set, or by dishonest manipulation)17:52
MRL-Relay[surae] and from this method, it's (relatively) easy to develop a "momentum" term in difficulty adjustment17:52
MRL-Relay[surae] so that if block arrival times are, say, 20% off of a true Poisson process, you end up with about 81.8%  the difficulty adjustment that you would normally make by assuming no manipulation occurred17:53
MRL-Relay[surae] with bitcoin, this isn't a huge deal because of the 2 week adjustment period, but for coins with rapid adjustment periods like Monero, this can prevent manipulation by multipools and whatnot17:53
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MRL-Relay[surae] the real interesting part about this is that a Poisson process has the same sample variance and squared sample mean of inter-arrival times...17:54
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MRL-Relay[surae] and blocks *should* arrive on the network in a Poisson process, but folks can issue whatever timestamp they like; the difference between squared sample mean and sample variance is a metric (not in the strict sense) between the observed process and a true poisson process with the target arrival rate17:55
MRL-Relay[surae] so using the difference between these two, you can develop a momentum term in difficulty adjustment that says "okay, if the process doesn't exhibit a lot of poisson-icity, don't adjust difficulty very much because the observations have been manipulated; if the process is very poisson-ic (ha) then go ahead and adjust difficulty like normal17:57
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petertoddheath: oh yeah, I did say that - added18:02
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heathpetertodd: thanks :)21:41
kanzureheath: no fair21:42
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--- Log closed Sun Mar 15 00:00:22 2015

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