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| gmaxwell | [somehow I feel this is related] http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3692 | 03:24 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | hah hah | 03:26 |
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| fluffypony | Boss: "but what if instead of using a database we used a blockchain?" | 03:29 |
| fluffypony | Developer: "why not just use a database?" | 03:29 |
| fluffypony | Boss: "because if it's in a blockchain then everyone can have a copy of it!" | 03:29 |
| fluffypony | Developer: "...so we use a distributed database? or rsync? or any form of mirroring / syncing / clustering?" | 03:29 |
| fluffypony | Boss: "BLOCKCHAIN." | 03:29 |
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| adam3us | fluffypony: the blockchain hammer. groan. | 03:39 |
| fluffypony | well at least they're moving on from Cloud and IAAS/SAAS/PAAS | 03:40 |
| fluffypony | although maybe the next step will be BAAS...Blockchain As A Service | 03:40 |
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| gmaxwell | it comic would have been better if he'd mentioned the loss of fuel efficiency on land and perhaps safty/sea-worthness as a boat. :P | 03:49 |
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| leakypat | fluffypony: lol | 06:08 |
| leakypat | Sometimes I think i should setup a blockchain consultancy | 06:08 |
| fluffypony | "LeakyPat's Blockchain Consultancy - Blockchaining All The Things Since 2011" | 06:09 |
| leakypat | I like it | 06:09 |
| leakypat | So what's your blockchain strategy? | 06:09 |
| leakypat | Haha | 06:09 |
| fluffypony | hah hah | 06:09 |
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| jgarzik | I think a couple companies are in fact doing Blockchain-As-A-Service ;p | 06:14 |
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| bsm117532 | Which ones? | 06:15 |
| bsm117532 | Like, they make an altcoin for you? | 06:15 |
| fluffypony | fine, then we go straight to Sidechains As A Service | 06:15 |
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| jgarzik | bluematt made a joke - coingen.io - which generated an altcoin for you, for 0.5 BTC or somesuch. Thousands were created ;p | 06:44 |
| bsm117532 | I've had a lot of discussions with clueless bankers and one thing that ALWAYS comes up is making their own blockchain, you know, so they can control it. | 06:44 |
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| gmaxwell | much like 'cow clicker'[1] -- people seemed to not get the satire, which seems to continually irritate bluematt; much as it did the creator of cowclicker. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker | 06:48 |
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| fluffypony | TIL | 06:48 |
| * nsh smiles | 06:49 | |
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| koshii | win 35 | 06:52 |
| fluffypony | 'when addressing a complaint by a fan who felt the game was no longer fun after the cow rapture, Bogost responded that "it wasn't very fun before."' | 06:54 |
| * fluffypony can't wait for the altcoinpocalypse and the impending dev rapture | 06:54 | |
| gmaxwell | Nor can I, this morning's fun-- someone arguing earnestly on the PHC mailing list that one second POW verification times are acceptable for cryptocurrency: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/2707 (I responded) | 06:57 |
| fluffypony | oh I saw andytoshi reply to a post about that on BTCT, not sure if it was the same guy | 06:58 |
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| gmaxwell | oh yea? | 07:01 |
| fluffypony | lemme find it | 07:01 |
| fluffypony | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1009710.0 | 07:02 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if bankers have just not been talking with software people, ever. | 07:08 |
| nsh | is the 70k ver/s @ 3.2Ghz for secp256k1 for a single physical core, or whatever is average for a desktop CPU these days? | 07:08 |
| kanzure | because i don't remember them asking "can i make my own database?" | 07:08 |
| nsh | ( gmaxwell ) | 07:08 |
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| BlueMatt | gmaxwell: yup, pretty muc | 07:13 |
| BlueMatt | h | 07:13 |
| gmaxwell | kanzure: doesn't matter if they have; to the extent that have anyone competent is likely to have said "we don't know" a lot; whereas anyone clueless was absolutely certian. Unable to judge the relative qualifications, who would you listen to? (uh okay, maybe you still wouldn't-- but think typical banker here) | 07:14 |
| gmaxwell | nsh: thats a quad-core number. | 07:17 |
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| gmaxwell | hm. it's also a bit high. I am wondering where I got it from. benching 45k/sec here right now. | 07:19 |
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| gmaxwell | I'm probably tained by sipa's batch verification speeds. | 07:19 |
| * nsh nods | 07:20 | |
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| gmaxwell | 58k now, when actually compiled with all the wizbangs. | 07:21 |
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| gmaxwell | meh, should have checked the number before posting though it's not technical incorrect if including the batch schnorr stuff. | 07:22 |
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| nsh | doesn't really affect the illustrative purpose of the figure for the post | 07:30 |
| gmaxwell | nah, I feel bad though. it's also not wrong enough that its worth correcting. | 07:31 |
| * nsh nods | 07:31 | |
| nsh | is there any theoretical understanding of how the quality of approximation-freeness results from the construction of a hash function? | 07:32 |
| bsm117532 | @kanzure bankers have not been talking with software people, ever. Software people are second or third class employees in India who make websites on command. | 07:33 |
| gmaxwell | not really, it hasn't been a strong objective elsewhere, we're somewhat lucky. If the hash-function has strong diffusion in every round then that probably helps a lot; but I could certantly imagine an otherwise reasonable hashfunction existing that only had strong diffusion at the first and last round. | 07:33 |
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| * nsh nods | 07:34 | |
| nsh | but i think diffusion itself could be amenable to a more nuanced (relative) definition and treatment. the diffusion of data relative under some transformation of a space relative to a particular structure may actually be more or less static or even convergent relative to some other structure that may have a nontrivial but useful relationship to the first structure | 07:37 |
| nsh | s/data relative under/data under/ | 07:37 |
| nsh | (e.g. XLS attacks on AES exploit (but not very well) the fact that the diffusion of the round does not affect the over-determination when expressed as a system of simultaneous linear or low-order polynomial equations) | 07:38 |
| nsh | ( http://www.isg.rhul.ac.uk/~sean/crypto.pdf ) | 07:40 |
| nsh | and it may be more problematic in the context of hashing than block ciphers | 07:41 |
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| kanzure | hmm https://github.com/Z3Prover/z3/blob/29606b5179f76783ffb0c2ca0ed9d614847064b3/examples/c/test_capi.c#L678 | 08:06 |
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| kanzure | .tw https://twitter.com/hashbreaker/status/584000738860339200 | 14:13 |
| yoleaux | At NIST PQ workshop, NSA crypto team gives talk "improving" DH: (1) Make it fragile against any reuse of keys. (2) Send Bob your RNG output. (@hashbreaker) | 14:13 |
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| gmaxwell | I'd like to know the snark-reduced version of that, like ... wtf were they suggesting that made it key reuse vulnerable?! | 14:22 |
| gmaxwell | PQ I assume means "post quantum" | 14:22 |
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| zooko | Wow, this is an interesting paper arguing that if you're a miner on the bitcoin network today, you can increase revenue by 2% if you omit all txns. | 17:25 |
| justanotheruser | zooko: what, because you have a 2% higher orphan rate? | 17:25 |
| justanotheruser | also, that sounds like a failing in properly choosing tx based on fee :P | 17:25 |
| sipa | zooko: 2% seems high | 17:25 |
| zooko | justanotheruser: I think that is what it is arguing. | 17:27 |
| justanotheruser | 25btc per mb*2% = 0.0005btc per kb fee needed in addition to make it profitable | 17:28 |
| zooko | https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox?compose=14c81166fb498f97 | 17:29 |
| zooko | oops | 17:29 |
| zooko | ftp://ftp.gate.cnrs.fr/RePEc/2014/1412.pdf | 17:30 |
| zooko | HT Marie Vasek | 17:30 |
| kanzure | you expect me to believe that zooko uses gmail? | 17:30 |
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| justanotheruser | how else is he supposed to have a human-meaningful identity that is secure? | 17:32 |
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| phantomcircuit | zooko, they're just arguing that larger blocks have a higher orphan rate right? | 17:32 |
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| zooko | phantomcircuit: I'm not 100% sure what the argument is... | 17:48 |
| phantomcircuit | zooko, yeah it is | 17:50 |
| phantomcircuit | "When pro cessing transactions in a blo ck, a miner increases his reward but alsodecreases his probability to earn any reward b ecause the time needed for his block to reach consensus dep ends on its size. " | 17:50 |
| phantomcircuit | zooko, that's old and boring and there are solutions which roughly fix this | 17:51 |
| phantomcircuit | see https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/RelayNode | 17:51 |
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| bramc | Even sending off to the relay network takes some amount of time. Transaction fees being effectively zero is not a good thing. | 18:16 |
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| instagibbs | worst case is that fees get bumped to match orphan risk. Not a crisis. | 18:17 |
| gmaxwell | zooko: the numbers in that paper are pure BS. | 18:18 |
| gmaxwell | it's based off the "decker" numbers which are from measurements in 2012 and don't reflect the current state of technology. | 18:19 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: relay network sending a block, if txn are already preforwarded takes sending one or two packets. | 18:20 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, if you run a relay node locally it doesn't | 18:20 |
| bramc | gmaxwell, Oh right, that does mostly fix it | 18:20 |
| gmaxwell | relay node client. | 18:20 |
| phantomcircuit | right just the client is enough | 18:21 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: in any case, the decker numbers in that paper are prior to signature caching, prior to ultra prune, prior to removing several arbritary 100ms sleeps in the bitcoin networking code, and a dozen other performance improvements. So even without the relaynetwork client, they don't reflect the actual network behavior. | 18:22 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, 10ms but yeah | 18:24 |
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| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: hm. You sure? | 18:24 |
| phantomcircuit | pretty sure | 18:24 |
| gmaxwell | speaking of that, we still have one related; I think the person working on it (Ashley has abandoned it) | 18:25 |
| sipa | there were 100ms and 10ms ones | 18:26 |
| phantomcircuit | no you're right it was 100 | 18:26 |
| sipa | long ago | 18:26 |
| gmaxwell | we nitpicked it to death, alas (well the patch Ashley made a ton of very difficult to audit locking changes which I think are avoidable) | 18:26 |
| sipa | not sure which are left, but at least one | 18:26 |
| phantomcircuit | https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/97f844dd95c54b0fe2f2a1bb006c74ff544ff125 | 18:26 |
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| phantomcircuit | sipa, i think the only way the networking thread sleeps is if it has nothing to do | 18:29 |
| phantomcircuit | so that means average 50ms latency added to processing any incoming message | 18:29 |
| gmaxwell | phantomcircuit: yes, see the pullreq by Ashley. replaces that control with a semaphore but it adds a bunch of prods to make it spin all over the code. | 18:30 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, you know what the pr # is? | 18:32 |
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| fanquake | 4230 | 18:33 |
| sipa | #bitcoin-dev | 18:34 |
| gmaxwell | ^ | 18:35 |
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| gmaxwell | andytoshi: so now that rust 1.0 beta is out, have you updated all your rust code yet? | 19:03 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, lol | 19:05 |
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| phantomcircuit | bramc, for reference | 22:06 |
| phantomcircuit | [2015-04-04 05:05:13+00] 0000000000000000083b0cb560b11e15716c62b0ae37ac826166923db4e2fcad recv'd, size 350675 with 1361 bytes on the wire | 22:06 |
| phantomcircuit | that's just 2 ethernet frames | 22:07 |
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