2015-04-10.log

--- Log opened Fri Apr 10 00:00:48 2015
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* nsh muses02:47
fluffyponylike the band? or do you literally have a Greek goddess next to you inspiring you?02:52
nsha little from column A, a little from column Beta02:52
sipaor ARE you a greek goddess?02:53
nshrats, secret's out02:53
nshnah, i was thinking of some kind of system to cross-reference -wizards and mailing-list discussions and (a very small subset of) bitcointalk in various ways to try and better systematize the body of emerging thought and knowledge02:54
nshto create a more manageable ascent of mt. blockchain02:54
nshs/create/facilitate/02:56
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* nsh gets distracted epidemiological mountain-climbing analogues and parallel transport 02:57
nsh*analogies02:58
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nshkanzure will hopefully have some ideas about how to go about creating a practical dependency structure for hierarchically-comprehensible complex understanding03:01
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nshInformation Geometry and Applications. / Background material -- https://nlsconf.physics.uoc.gr/sites/nlsconf.physics.uoc.gr/files/files/background_4_talk_ghikas_2014_01.pdf03:59
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nsh.wik Contrast function04:06
yoleaux"In statistics and information geometry, divergence or a contrast function is a function which establishes the "distance" of one probability distribution to the other on a statistical manifold." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_function04:06
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kanzurensh: copy-paste07:05
nshfor what?07:06
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kanzurethat is the answer07:20
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* nsh is doubtful07:29
* zooko is too.07:30
* zooko doesn't know what we're talking about, but is just doubtful in principle.07:31
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Kwelstrmoooo?09:11
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pampuchyhi y'all11:51
pampuchyi'm back with my sketchy kripto11:51
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lmatteisguys13:32
lmatteisis anybody here an academic?13:32
lmatteisi'm an undergrad and looking for a research career in p2p systems. wondering which path to follow exactly (which classes to take, which labs to look into, etc)13:33
manan19?13:36
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kanzureuh well, here's some stuff you can read http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/incentives/13:37
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andytoshilmatteis: i'm an acadamic, you can PM me for school advice, but note that i have a math degree and have nothing positive to say about CS departments13:49
lmatteisandytoshi: and you do research in bitcoin?13:51
andytoshilmatteis: nope :)13:52
andytoshinot in school anyway13:52
lmatteisbut you do distribtued stuff?13:54
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andytoshistill nope13:58
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lmatteisandytoshi: so what do you do :)14:04
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andytoshilmatteis: in the bitcoin space i care about privacy tech; in acadima i do real analysis/information theory14:06
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lmatteiscool14:06
lmatteisi have a hard understanding how to do research in information theory14:06
lmatteislike, most research i read is experimental14:07
lmatteisalso, would you say the bitcoin paper is theory?14:07
pigeonsandytoshi wrote a coinjoin implementation, a treatice on altcoins, a bitcoin library in rust, an experimental client using the rust library, and a reference on asics for pow14:07
kanzurelmatteis: also see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/14:08
andytoshilol pigeons, thx, im in rust mode right now and honestly couldn't think of what it is i do around here..14:08
andytoshilmatteis: i've never heard of experimental information theory14:08
kanzure"mostly i just read rust docs"14:08
lmatteisno just experimental research14:08
andytoshioh, i see. lmatteis click around http://arxiv.org/list/math.IT/recent (don't actulaly try to read it, you'll never get out) to get a feel for it14:09
lmatteiswhat i meant to say is that i have problems understanding how to perform theoretical research14:10
lmatteiswith experimental, you run experiments, observe what happens and report it14:10
lmatteiswith theory?14:10
andytoshioh, all that's cs.IT rather than ma.IT, http://arxiv.org/list/math.FA/recent is a better example of things that are actually theoretical14:10
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andytoshilmatteis: you discover things that are true, then write down what they are and why they're true14:12
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lmatteisandytoshi: how do you discover that it's true without experiments?14:12
andytoshilmatteis: with deductive reasoning14:12
kanzuregreg egan claims that even someone just thinking about a problem is an experiment, so you're safe.14:12
Apocalypticlmatteis, because you get a mathematical proof14:12
andytoshihow could you discover something is true using experiments?14:12
kanzureyeah, aren't experiments only for falsifying possibilities?14:13
lmatteisnothing is true for certain. with experiments you quantify how good it can be14:13
sipano14:13
kanzureor s/falsifying/ruling out14:13
sipaexperiments are for giving your theory a chance to fail14:13
sipaif they fail to fail, you gain confidence in them14:14
kanzureyes falsifying is definitely the wrong word14:14
* nsh demurs14:14
sipabut that doesn't make them more or less true, just more plausible14:14
lmatteisandytoshi: what do you mean by discovering that something is true? can you give me an example?14:14
nshexperiments are for collecting data.  models afford for collected data to differentiate between hypotheses when there is a good coupling between the modelling and the experimental apparatus and reality14:15
nshbut data is always collected14:15
andytoshilmatteis: sure, "if a schnorr signature is defined as (s, e) for s = k - xe and e = H(m, kG) for x,k,m,G defined in some way for `=` and `-` to be true in a field and H defined as some function, then given (s', e') calculated with the same x and k, x is uniquely determined by (s, s', e, e') and is efficiently computable"14:17
andytoshisorry, that was simpler in my head..14:17
andytoshilmatteis: "if a prime number is defined as one for which no positive integers divide it except for 1 and itself, then the natural numbers contain infinitely many primes"14:18
andytoshialso put a bunch of stuff about the natural numbers being a unique factorization demain into the "if"14:18
lmatteishrm ok14:18
nshhow much stuff about unique factorization can there be to put in?14:19
andytoshinsh: actually the peano axioms will suffice14:19
nshhmm14:19
andytoshito imply everything you need, as well as that the natural numbers are themselves infinite14:19
andytoshiand well-ordered14:19
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nshwell-ordering only holds as long as you consider only consider finite sets of the natural numbers14:21
lmatteiswould you say the bitcoin paper is mostly theoretical?14:21
nsh(or does it)14:21
Apocalypticnsh, no it doesn't14:21
andytoshinsh: nope, well-ordering only requires you have a least number; it applies to all subsets of the naturals14:21
Apocalypticany non empty subset of natural numbers will have a least element14:21
nshi mean between set14:22
nsh*sets14:22
nshnot within14:22
andytoshii think that is equivalent to the axiom of countable choice tho, it's not obvious14:22
andytoshilmatteis: well, the bitcoin whitepaper is not super precise ... but yes, it is "theoretical"14:22
andytoshilmatteis: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1006.1095v5.pdf is something i care about, it's long but the first few pages are easy to read and well-motivated (for a pure math paper)14:23
lmatteisonly 12 citations :)14:23
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nshandytoshi, on another note, i was thinking earlier about parallel transport on manifolds and whether you could use it as a kind of scrambling system -- by encoding a message as a set of vectors and the key as a route along some reference manifold --  but i think you'd need the manifold to be nondifferentiable or otherwise freaky to have interesting properties14:26
nshany thoughts?14:26
andytoshinsh: "a message" is gonna live in a discrete space, you need a way to embed it and losslessly extract it, or to think about manifolds that are discretized in some way, in either case thinking about the "security" of it seems really hard14:27
* nsh nods14:27
lmatteiswow this is kinda cool http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/10/bittorrent-maelstrom-beta/14:31
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nshSecurity Applications of Formal Language Theory -- http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sergey/langsec/papers/sassaman-jsys7-3.pdf14:34
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nsh(what i'm wondering is if something akin to a generalized pumping lemma can be used to put bounds on the potential for weird machines in programs and protocols accepting complex input)14:40
andytoshithis looks really cool nsh, will read14:42
* nsh smiles14:42
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