2015-04-16.log

--- Log opened Thu Apr 16 00:00:54 2015
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fluffyponyawwww they stopped questions just before I got to ask mine, and then the Chainalysis dude bailed right after his speech01:10
fluffyponyhe spoke about how Bitcoin is Sybil resistant (lol)01:11
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justanotheruserbitcoin is sybil resistant?01:21
justanotheruseror maybe I don't know the context01:22
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fluffyponyjustanotheruser: he was doing an introduction to Bitcoin01:26
fluffyponythe funniest thing was how he spoke about some of Satoshi's design decisions, eg. "fees were only thought to be added late in 2007" or some such01:27
fluffyponyand he kept slipping back to saying "we", like "we didn't want to open it up to Sybil attacks"01:28
fluffyponylike when him and Satoshi were sitting around the table in the kitchen, trying to decide on a cool name for their product01:28
Elielfluffypony: what were you going to ask?01:29
fluffyponyEliel: during the Q&A he kept talking about how Chainalysis is helping regulators, and regulators/businesses must just "come talk to them", which made me REALLY want to ask him if they plan on continuing to Sybil attack the network by running nodes that don't relay transactions and aggressively reconnect when banned01:30
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mm_is this related to iacr by anyway?02:02
maakupigeons: and that repository is not offline....02:07
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fluffyponymm_: which bit?02:18
mm_I need research fund in this field02:19
mm_what should I do02:19
fluffyponywhich field?02:20
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* nsh blinks02:27
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fluffyponyhttps://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/evan-duffield-dash-darkcoin-dash-will-position-direct-competitor-bitcoin/02:28
fluffypony"Eventually, I believe Dash will position itself as a direct competitor to Bitcoin. In the meantime, Bitcoin enjoys a monopoly more or less on the space, which is unhealthy. For example, if the only crypto-currency in use is Bitcoin and it has an issue, the entire crypto-economy would be affected, burning the vast majority of it’s users. However, if there are 5 or 10 crypto-currencies in common use, it will reduce the systemic02:28
fluffypony risk on the sector as a whole and make it safer for everyone."02:28
fluffyponyI think we need to apply that logic to TCP/IP and HTTP02:28
* fluffypony invents DashTCP02:29
wumpusthe lure of fragmentation :)02:35
fluffyponywumpus: but imagine! Every ISP could have 5 or 10 different edge routers to support the different protocols02:36
fluffyponyconsumer routers would only support 1 protocol, and would rely on the ISP to translate it into that 1 protocol02:36
fluffyponywhat a great world they imagine!02:36
wumpusanyhow, the systemic risk argument only makes sense for completely difernt systems, not derivations like darkcoin. And we already have another system: the old fashioned banks.02:37
fluffyponyyup02:37
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wumpus<justanotheruser> bitcoin is sybil resistant? <- it has a level of sybil resistance. Essentially as everyone does their own verification, the system only requires one honest node. But it is not entirely invulnerable, e.g. extreme sybil attacks can be used to isolate nodes02:42
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sipait also gives you a means to measure whether you're seeing the same as everyone else (by measuring the hashrate)02:45
fluffyponywhich is a far superior consensus system to "receive this from as many peers as possible, and then hope that the majority of them are honest"02:45
wumpuse.g. systems based on voting and majorities are much more sensitive to sybil attacks02:46
wumpusright fluffypony02:46
fluffyponywhich is how, I think, a lot of "developers" imagine consensus02:46
wumpussipa: good point02:46
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stonecoldpatHi - to anyone who had interest in the paper I posted a few days ago about AKE. The technique described is sound and works fine (to best of our knowledge of course). However, Greg did point out an edge case - sighash_single has an implementation bug that allows someone to sign the message '1' in a transaction and this would allow an adversary to produce a signature that would enable06:22
stonecoldpatrelay attacks. Thankfully, This implementation bug is detectable (since your signing the number '1' and not the transaction inputs/outputs/script!). Ive already thanked him for pointing this out to me and i'll be updating the paper to include that bug (and as a safety-measure for the future - to be explicit about what needs to be signed for the technique to work).06:22
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adlaistonecoldpat: relay/replay?06:28
sipawas about to say the  same06:31
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stonecoldpatIt would have been a relay attack (or at least thats what I would call it). In the sense that Alice has (r_{a},s_{a}), Bob has (r_{b}, s_{b}) and Mallory using the implementation bug could produce (r_{a},s_{m}) and (r_{b},s_{m}) - then he could initiate a conversation with Alice and Bob - sending messages back and forth. He cannot read the messages, but any messages he receives from06:38
stonecoldpatBob he can pass to Alice, and vice versa.06:38
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* adlai would call that a Mallory-in-the-Middle06:39
stonecoldpatWithout the implementation bug that should not be possible06:39
stonecoldpathaha mallory in the middle then :)06:39
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stonecoldpatwith the bug, he can produce any (r,s) and he knows he will sign the message "1" - so can just use the key recovery technique to get a public key that will match up with it06:40
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andytoshigmaxwell: see the `Use` section of the README on https://github.com/apoelstra/halfsleep :} it's usable now at least for trivial projects09:04
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adlaithis is COOL, to the point of shouting... although maybe the readme should say that it's a test-testing methodology :P11:15
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andytoshihehe, thx :) yeah, the README should generally be much longer and have some more motivation; i need to work on functionality more before i do that tho (like, it doesn't work on member functions, only global ones; and it should be combining the unit tests for mutated functionality since i only need /one/ to fail because of the mutation, not all of them)11:30
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andytoshi..and it should allow users to register new mutators, etc, though i'm not sure how cleanly i can make that possible11:34
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Taekhttps://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/tree/develop/crypto/secp256k113:43
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Taekoh jk that's not in golang anyway13:44
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xcthulhuSo has anybody else noticed that anywhere between 0% and 33% of the bonded stake in Tendermint doesn’t matter at all?22:26
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justanotheruserxcthulhu: want to elaborate22:31
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xcthulhuSure.  So the simplest case is you just have 2 guys, a majority shareholder and a minority holder.  If the majority holder has 67% of the stake or more, the minority holder doesn’t matter.22:32
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justanotheruserIf you're assuming a majority holder then yeah.22:33
justanotheruserSame with bitcoin and 50% isn't it?22:33
xcthulhuWell, in bitcoin every last watt contributes22:33
justanotheruserwhat if there are 5 holders not colluding with 67% evenly distributed?22:34
xcthulhuOn the other hand, in Tendermint, you’ll have a distribution of bonded stakes resembling a poorly designed voting system.22:34
justanotheruserin the case that someone has 50%, each watt doesn't contribute22:34
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xcthulhuRight, so that’s just the simplest case. To sort of understand a more complex case, it’s worth looking at something like the European union from 1958 to 1973 to see what can go wrong.22:35
xcthulhuhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Treaty_of_Rome_.281958.E2.80.931973.2922:36
xcthulhuIn this particular voting system, no party had a majority.22:36
xcthulhuHowever, if you look at every possible voting configuration, you’d see that Luxembourg’s single vote actually never actually could change the outcome22:37
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xcthulhu(assuming a majority vote)22:37
xcthulhuSomething roughly analgous in Tendermint would be if you had 3 parties - 2 majority holders of roughly similar size constituting >67% of the bonded stake and a minority holder with the rest22:40
justanotheruserwhy assume 3 parties?22:41
xcthulhuIt’s just a simple concrete example to pump intuition.22:42
justanotheruserbut does it work without the assumption that two parties will control 2/3 of stake?22:42
xcthulhuIn general, I’d expect a Pareto distribution of wealth corresponding to a Gini coefficient between .95 and .99.22:43
justanotheruserI think there are much stronger arguments against tendermint22:43
xcthulhuEven with a nice Gini coefficient of .8, 20% of the stake just won’t matter22:43
xcthulhuI’m vaguely curious, but the fact that voting power is not linearly proportional to stake is pretty damning.22:44
xcthulhuAnd that combinatorically a substantial portion of the stake is pointless just makes it decentralization theatre.22:45
xcthulhuWhat’s a better argument?22:46
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justanotheruserthe cost of rewriting history22:46
xcthulhuIt’s probably easy.22:47
xcthulhuI mean, I know Ethereum is thinking of using Tendermint.  I know from insider information that 80% of the stake is wrapped up in just 12 individuals.  I’m sure they could fork it whatever way they want if they can coordinate.22:49
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justanotheruser12 "individuals" could probably keep "themselves" in power22:51
xcthulhuWell, yes.  The other 20% of the stake doesn’t matter from a combinatoric perspective.22:53
xcthulhuIt’s not really different than a corporation, just less honest.22:56
Taekmodern corporations are bound by jurisdictional national laws22:58
Taekwhich I would argue offers more protection to the average user22:59
xcthulhuYup.  They have regulations and everything.  There’s nothing stopping the majority stakeholders from being absolutely cutthroat.23:00
xcthulhu(in tendermint)23:05
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