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| nsh | amiller, how does this transformation add security to the snark by encrypting secrets against a public key for which the corresponding private key is destroyed during trusted setup? | 04:50 |
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| Eliel | hmmh... the setup phase sounds like it might benefit from the multiparty signature algorithm that allows different parties to produce a signature without revealing their private keys to each other. | 05:24 |
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| nsh | is there any good particular system / context in which to learn about conflict-free replicated data types? | 06:00 |
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| nsh | a blockchain (sidechain) can be used to bootstrap a distributed system of authenticated conflict-free replicated data types, as coin independent-spendabilitiy and fungibility gives commutativity to operations bound to unspent transaction outputs, and idempotence is assured by double-spend resistance | 06:21 |
| nsh | so mining must effect a semilattice join on the monotonically-increasing global blockchain partial-order state of transactions | 06:23 |
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| nsh | actually, it would seem bitcoin exists as a continuous operation-based CRDT for SPV-nodes and above, scaffolded by a periodic [blocktime] state-based CRDT replicated by full nodes and above and updated by miners semilatice-joining a view of the gossip network (operation-based CRDT) at a poisson period in statistical proportion to their hashpower contribution | 06:31 |
| nsh | where the hashpower contribution itself maintains the partial-ordering of the blockchain state | 06:31 |
| nsh | sorry, maintains the monotonicity, and thus partial-ordering of the blockchain state | 06:32 |
| nsh | (i guess strictly it's monotonically increasing because the merkel tree depth increases, which is not directly related to hashing difficulty) | 06:33 |
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| nsh | *merkle | 06:33 |
| nsh | it would be interesting to compare the blockchain disk representation to the lower-bounds for state-based CRDT complexity | 06:36 |
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| Adlai | is bitcoin's blockchain a merkle tree, or just a list? | 06:43 |
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| * Adlai isn't sure in which situations you'd only consider the longest chain, as opposed to all computed blocks, losing forks included | 06:44 | |
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| nsh | it's the 'longest' chain only | 06:47 |
| nsh | but long is defined in terms of sum of work | 06:47 |
| nsh | a chain with fewer blocks but at higher total difficulty is thus longer than a chain of more blocks at lower difficulty | 06:48 |
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| Adlai | anybody can suggest updates to the CRDT, but *somebody* must pay a computational cost (ie, the PoW) to generate a valid update message; the computational cost is compensated with the freedom to adjust the database in your favor, within a limit that you believe other nodes will find tolerable | 06:55 |
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| * nsh nods | 07:00 | |
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| Eliel | Adlai: the blockchain is a list of merkle trees. | 13:42 |
| Eliel | every block has one | 13:42 |
| Adlai | *merkle list of merkle trees | 13:42 |
| Eliel | no, just a linked list of merkle trees. | 13:43 |
| Adlai | it's not a regular linked list, it uses partial preimage collision hashpointers | 13:43 |
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| luny | would there be any use for an alt coin that would reward people for running full bitcoin nodes by paying them in that alt coin? i.e. "help bitcoin by running full nodes, and get paid in alt coin" | 14:07 |
| frankenmint | why must it be an alt-coin to pay them | 14:07 |
| frankenmint | ? | 14:07 |
| luny | dunno, who would reward the bitcoin nodes in bitcoin? | 14:08 |
| sipa | there is no reason to pay people to run a bitcoin node | 14:08 |
| sipa | people should *use* a node | 14:09 |
| Adlai | luny: some people have already tried, and realized that "reward bitcoin nodes in bitcoin" is vulnerable to sybil attack in a way that "obtain bitcoin coinsensus" isn't | 14:09 |
| sipa | preferably a full node they control themselves | 14:09 |
| sipa | well, full nodes help the network a bit... lightweight clients and bootstrapping other nodes | 14:10 |
| luny | Adlai, do you mean that people would pretend running a node when in fact they aren't, and hence getting more rewards than they deserve? | 14:10 |
| frankenmint | paying for it to run simply for it to run isn't a proper solution | 14:10 |
| sipa | but for the security of the system, what matters is how many people independently *use* a node | 14:10 |
| sipa | whether that is 1 or 1000 is irrelevant | 14:10 |
| Adlai | luny: I can't dig up the link at the moment, and maybe better that it's so, but somebody published a bitnodes fraud script shortly after the program was announced | 14:12 |
| sipa | luny: using a node is a reward on itself, namely you get the security of verifying that nodoby in the network is cheating, without needing to trust anyone for it | 14:12 |
| luny | yes, good points.. thanks a lot | 14:13 |
| Adlai | luny: for an example of a similar (yet differently motivated) attack on the network, google chainalysis | 14:14 |
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