2015-05-17.log

--- Log opened Sun May 17 00:00:14 2015
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TaekOne of the big things I don't like about merged mining + sidechains is that the security model is much weaker if your chain isn't funding the majority of the mining09:23
TaekAnd one of the problems with larger blocks is that validating becomes expensive09:23
TaekOne of the ways to approach this problem is to have 20 parallel utxo sets in the blockchain09:24
Taekeach set permitted 1mb of transactions in each block09:24
Taekand some form of sidechains implementation to move coins between the utxo sets09:25
TaekYou end up with 20mb as the maximum blockchain size, but people can now hold all of their coins in only 1 of the 20 sets09:25
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Taekand then they can validate that set and ignore all of the others09:25
TaekThe improvement to merge mining comes in from a new consensus rule09:26
Taekonce a valid set of transactions is in a 20mb block, it can't be reorg'd unless you completely reorg the whole system09:26
Taekso, instead of 20 blockchains, it's just 1 blockchain, but with 20 utxo sets09:27
TaekSince you are only validating 1 set, there's a chance that the other sets have invalid transactions09:27
Taekif a block appears that has invalid transactions for your utxo set, you just ignore the transactions for that set09:28
Taekbut the block as a whole is still valid09:28
Taekthis makes SPV trickier to implement, but I think it's still possible to have SPV nodes (you might need an additional consensus rule about miners committing to which prior blocks have been valid)09:28
TaekThere might be a way to improve on everyone needing to d/l the 20mb blocks as well09:29
zookoHiya Taek! Nice to meet you IRL.09:29
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Taekhey zooko! I enjoyed chatting09:30
TaekThe only reason that you need to d/l the whole block is to be certain that none of the data is being withheld09:30
Taekas the security model breaks if someone can hide a valid portion of the chain09:31
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TaekPrevious discussions with gmaxwell suggest that there might be ways to avoid needing to download the entire 20mb block while still having high certainty that no data is being withheld09:31
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TaekI'm curious if the above idea is something worth putting on the mailing list09:56
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zookohttps://leastauthority.com/blog/a_bug_in_libsnark.html10:44
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Luke-Jrzooko: so is this a Zerocash softfork? (was Zerocash actually released in some form?)10:57
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theymosTaek: That's a bit like tree chains, isn't it?11:54
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theymosTaek: I'm also not confident that merge-mined sidechains will be particularly useful if any big Bitcoin pool can destroy them at will almost for free.11:55
kanzurewell they are giving up the opportunity to mine for other things during that time11:56
kanzurei mean during the time that they are attacking11:56
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kanzure(depending on how weak the target is)11:56
Taekit's not a huge sacrifice though, b/c they are still getting the rewards from the majority chain. It's even more significant if they can merge-mine many chains at once.11:57
Taekthen their only opportunity cost is the reward on the chain they are attacking11:57
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kanzurethey only get the rewards from the majority chain if they are actively mining12:02
kanzureoh merge-mining an attack? hm12:02
Taekright12:03
Taekespecially if you're including behaviors like bribes, a coin with a very small reward doesn't require much of a bribe to convince a pool to attack-mine or just not mine.12:04
Taekthat ceases to be a problem in my 'merged block' scheme, because reorging any set of transactions requires reorging every set of transactions - you lose out on the rewards of the majority chain as well as the rewards on the minority chain12:07
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theymosInstead of doing PoW on sidechains, I wonder if you could do something like this: After creating a new sidechain block without any PoW, broadcast or mine a transaction on the Bitcoin network with an OP_RETURN output containing some sidechain-identifying leading info and the sidechain block hash. The real next block in the sidechain is the first such transaction listed in a Bitcoin block. The Bit12:16
theymoscoin network already keeps track of ordering, so don't allow reorgs on the sidechain without reorgs on the Bitcoin chain.12:16
Taekwhat is the sidechain identifying leading info? That is very important12:18
TaekIf it's just a hash, someone could hide a different reorg in the bitcoin chain, and then reveal it12:19
Taekif there's some identifying prefix, someone could release a prefix followed by a nonsense hash, and you have to figure out how to choose which entries to ignore12:19
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theymosAh, good point.12:20
theymosMaybe this particular idea doesn't work then, but I feel like if possible it'd be better to do sidechain-type stuff without any additional PoW (including merged mining) by attaching sidechain stuff more tightly to Bitcoin blocks, in this general vein.12:22
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fluffyponytheymos: that's basically what we're going to do be doing with some of the Monero daughter-chains, no coinbase and more tightly coupled to the mainchain, with nodes being able to advertise what additional chains they serve12:47
fluffyponybut then it's less of an "anyone can make a chain!" thing, and more of a "hallowed be thy blessed other-chains"12:47
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Luke-Jrfluffypony: Monero daughter-chains for Bitcoin, or within Monero?14:11
Luke-Jrtheymos: also to consider, what if it's an invalid sidechain block14:12
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fluffyponyLuke-Jr: within Monero14:21
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--- Log closed Mon May 18 00:00:15 2015

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