| --- Log opened Thu May 28 00:00:00 2015 | ||
| --- Day changed Thu May 28 2015 | ||
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| amiller | yall seen Trinocchio? http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/480.pdf | 12:40 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | the Disney film? | 12:40 |
| * fluffypony jests | 12:40 | |
| amiller | its now safe to outsource your snark proofs to k/n servers | 12:40 |
| amiller | they can produce snark proofs for you without actually having to know your secrets (unless more than k of them collude or whatever) | 12:41 |
| fluffypony | ooooh I like this | 12:41 |
| amiller | and it doesn't require a change to the underlying pinocchio protocol so even if they all cheat, then your secrets are stolen but at least the rest of whatever the system relying on the snark proofs (e.g. zerocash) isn't compromised | 12:42 |
| fluffypony | yeah | 12:42 |
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| gmaxwell | amiller: not compatible with the latest SNARK papers that use the recursive construction to get perfectly linear scaling, alas. | 13:45 |
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| Luke-Jr | amiller: is there a library that can be used for this purpose yet? ie, something I can throw in BFGMiner | 13:50 |
| Luke-Jr | ie, something that doesn't require the executor to compile and run potentially malicious code | 13:50 |
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| andytoshi | maaku: gmaxwell: re my argument about impossibility of untrusted obfuscation, it is at https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/oldblog/?post=impossible-crs | 14:34 |
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| andytoshi | the argument was that you can't get rid of trusted setup for all systems (in particular this timelock scheme that i hand-wavily defined using obfuscation) | 14:35 |
| andytoshi | but it doesn't argue that the obfuscation primitive itself requires a trusted setup | 14:35 |
| andytoshi | (i feel like i did argue this somewhere, but didn't write it up, and don't recall how it went .. maybe i told it to gmaxwell here or offline and he remembers enough to prompt me?) | 14:36 |
| gmaxwell | I think you did. | 14:36 |
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| andytoshi | i have argued that both obfuscation and snarks require multilinear maps, and that one went "matiyasevich's theorem says the computable subsets of NN are exactly the diophantine ones, therefore "cryptographically secure general computation" is as hard as "simultaneously cryptographically secure ring operations" for any definition of "cryptographically secure" | 14:39 |
| andytoshi | but i am optimistic (though not very) that there will be some breakthrough in lattice crypto that allows efficient oblivious multiplication and addition without the trusted setup that graded encoded schemes do (graded encoded schemes are used in place of multilinear maps since there are no candidates for "pure" multilinear maps) | 14:40 |
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| amiller | gmaxwell, actually i don't see any obstacle to using it recursively | 15:48 |
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| gmaxwell | amiller: you fully seralize. | 15:53 |
| gmaxwell | amiller: e.g. yea, sure you could distribute each step but then you need a full RTT per machine instruction and a full resharing and such, and so what did the delegation accomplish? | 15:54 |
| amiller | i dunno, at the output of one round of this, each server gets a secret share of the resulting proof | 15:55 |
| amiller | so i dont see why you can't use those shares of the resulting proof as an input to a subsequent round, which involves computing on that proof | 15:55 |
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| gmaxwell | you can but that doesn't sound useful as the users will end up having to do a communication round trip and resharing for every single tinyram instruction. | 15:57 |
| amiller | i don't see where the users round trip came in | 15:58 |
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| amiller | user just provide some initial secret shares of the input, that's all | 15:58 |
| amiller | the servers can compute function after function after function, each time receiving shares of the output | 15:59 |
| amiller | the user doesn't even have to be there in the first place | 16:01 |
| amiller | the user could distribute the shares of the private key to the servers at the very beginning | 16:02 |
| amiller | and if k/n of the servers want to do something, anything, with that key, they can do so | 16:02 |
| gmaxwell | not seeing how this works, the recursive function requires you verify a completed proof (with a different group) inside a proof. You can't verify a share. You can't update the hashtree over memory with just shares. | 16:04 |
| gmaxwell | I'm sure (due to the existance of MPC generally) that its fundimentally possible, but I don't see how the efficient trick there would work. | 16:04 |
| amiller | it's totally possible i'm misinterpreting some limitation of this, i'm not reading it at any close level at this point... | 16:05 |
| amiller | i think you could update the hashtree over the memory using just the shares using generic MPC | 16:05 |
| amiller | and that's fine, generic MPC isn't perfect but it's within the range of powerful servers | 16:05 |
| gmaxwell | It's not clear to me that its actually "within the range of powerful servers", at least for actively secure MPC. | 16:06 |
| amiller | you only need to use the 'efficient trick' to operate on the snarks | 16:06 |
| amiller | anyway i dont think its necessary to bring hashtrees into this either, i think i like geppetto's approach better (but i also want to stay out of the 'snark wars' as much as possible) | 16:08 |
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| iddo | andytoshi: i didn't understand your link above, you don't need obfuscation for timelock encryption, just witness encryption (and Bitcoin) | 18:27 |
| iddo | andytoshi: why you say that we don't know parts of future blocks? we do know, that blockhash<difficulty, which is exactly what's needed for witness encryption | 18:31 |
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| * nsh frowns | 19:42 | |
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| andytoshi | note to self: my argument about trusted setup being required had something to do with definition of simulation security, i think | 20:56 |
| andytoshi | iddo: oh, that's a good point re witness encryption, i used timelock encryption because that's what i was trying to build when i encountered the "result" typed up | 20:56 |
| andytoshi | re your second point, i need to think about that, i had considered it but for some reason did not think it affected my result | 20:56 |
| andytoshi | iddo: i think: in the random oracle model, `blockhash < target` implies that the blockhash is uniformly random in [0, target] which is still a large space, so "no information about the blockhash" is still a reasonable way to describe the state of affairs | 20:59 |
| andytoshi | oh, i see, witness encryption works despite this | 21:00 |
| andytoshi | weeeird | 21:00 |
| andytoshi | i guess, modulo the existence of secure witness encryption, i'm wrong then :) | 21:01 |
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| Taek | apparently a think tank today hypothesized that one day Bitcoin mining could be consuming 60+% of all of the world's total energy | 23:15 |
| Taek | this would make for some interesting security conditions, as I think it's reasonable to assume that 1 entity would control more than 30% of the world's total energy | 23:15 |
| Taek | economies of scale start to fall apart as you grow to such an extreme percentage of all of the resources available | 23:16 |
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| Taek | s/would control/would NOT control/ | 23:16 |
| Taek | furthermore, dark hashing power also becomes less of a concern, because it's unlikely that someone has so much energy available but isn't putting it to use | 23:17 |
| Taek | if they are putting it to use, it would necessarily need to fit inside of the remaining 40% of the world's available energy | 23:17 |
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| Taek | and thus isn't enough to spring a surprise 51% attack unless they also controll more than 30% of the Bitcoin hashing power | 23:18 |
| amiller | Taek, link? | 23:18 |
| Taek | you do still need to be paranoid about bursty-hashing schemes, and you need to be concerned about technological advances that make hashing more energy efficient | 23:18 |
| amiller | i like comparing bitcoin miner spending to spending on "defense" and militaries, or maybe physical security more generally | 23:20 |
| amiller | obviously if a society spends all of its resources on defense, there's not much else left to defend in the first place | 23:20 |
| Taek | http://www.coinfox.info/news/2113-environmentalists-bitcoin-mining-might-eventually-consume-60-of-global-electricity-supply | 23:20 |
| Taek | .title | 23:20 |
| yoleaux | Environmentalists: bitcoin mining might eventually consume 60% of global electricity supply | Coinfox | 23:20 |
| Taek | I think the idea of spending 60% of available energy on mining is completely absurd and very unlikely to happen | 23:21 |
| Taek | but it was fun to think about how the economic security assumptions changed at that scale | 23:21 |
| amiller | it would look pretty insane if 60% of the world's energy expenditure were spent on military too | 23:21 |
| amiller | "There are also hopes that the efficiency of bitcoin mining will grow so the electricity consumption and CO2 emission would decrease." this is meaningless too | 23:22 |
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| jcorgan | click-bait as a journalistic fitness function has really skewed the shitty end of distribution | 23:35 |
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| --- Log closed Fri May 29 00:00:19 2015 | ||
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