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| nsh | bah, logs to read.. :) | 02:26 |
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| nsh | <andytoshi> it's a pretty subtle thing, one of us Should Have Caught It but i'm not too suprised it got thruogh | 02:46 |
| nsh | <andytoshi> well, the paper can just say H(some algebraic formula), the code needs to have temporary variables and stuff, i don't think you can force them to match | 02:46 |
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| nsh | ^ depend on the context, you can probably standardise the expansion from algebraic expression for easier detection of inconsistency, i'd guess | 02:47 |
| * nsh reads the paper | 02:47 | |
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| waxwing | gmaxwell: i think andytoshi's latest ver still has errors in that line, i think it should be corrected from the 1st to 2nd here: http://pastebin.com/EWQJZpwy | 04:48 |
| waxwing | id PM him but not here i think | 04:48 |
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| fluffypony | this is like Ethereal Verses, but for startups: https://fusiondotnet.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/iterating-grace_digitized_small.pdf | 08:47 |
| fluffypony | plus the author is unknown, big mystery and all that | 08:48 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-adam3us-fungibility-privacy/ | 10:35 |
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| nsh | ty | 10:41 |
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| fluffypony | awesome | 10:42 |
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| nsh | kanzure, is there some simple jslib you could wrap you transcriptions in that would allow readers to correct typos inline while reading? | 11:15 |
| kanzure | you click "edit" | 11:15 |
| kanzure | it's a wiki.... | 11:15 |
| nsh | oh, right | 11:15 |
| nsh | yeah, i guess that's moderately unshit | 11:15 |
| nsh | contenteditable would be much less unshit | 11:15 |
| kanzure | well it's also a git repository | 11:15 |
| kanzure | and if you happen to also hate git, then github.com has a web browser interface for editing content too, https://github.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki/edit/master/transcripts/bitcoin-adam3us-fungibility-privacy.mdwn | 11:16 |
| nsh | cool | 11:16 |
| nsh | ah, this is fine :) | 11:17 |
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| nsh | "There was another ecash project that came later from Stefan Brands, one of David Chaum's PhD students. It had many more features based on the representation problem, and an extension of the Schnorr signature scheme. It had blind signatures, which are necessary for privacy, and it supported multiple denominations, and it did not have the single denomination efficiency problem." <-- what is this? | 11:33 |
| nsh | oh, never mind. got it | 11:34 |
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| nsh | are we absolutely certain it's not possible to do a trusted-setup in secure multiparty computation with enough distribution of trust as to give reasonable confidence that it can't be consolidated again? | 11:50 |
| nsh | [ie, enough participants] | 11:51 |
| kanzure | maybe there are trusted setup fraud proof mechanisms | 11:52 |
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| nsh | sadly no, the rule is that systems requiring trusted setup tend to invoke startlingly untraceable fraud for anyone with the trapdoor | 12:10 |
| nsh | i can't think of any where abuse of the trapdoor is detectable, in a distributed system | 12:10 |
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| jgarzik | Updated BIP 100 draft: http://gtf.org/garzik/bitcoin/BIP100-blocksizechangeproposal.pdf | 12:15 |
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| kanzure | nsh: well i was thinking of some single-use key scenario, but i see your point | 12:18 |
| * nsh nods | 12:19 | |
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| nsh | #nsactions floating around and spaced out in time, it's not obvious that you paid $5. You know and the merchant knows it, but the merchant doesn't know it.' | 12:29 |
| nsh | * 'Another one is merge avoidance which is just that in the payment protocol you can pay for a transaction in multiple parts. If you need to pay $15, if you pay you know $5 three times and there's lots of $5 transactions floating around and spaced out in time, it's not obvious that you paid $5. You know and the merchant knows it, but the merchant doesn't know it.' | 12:30 |
| nsh | not sure how to fix that without listening to the talk | 12:30 |
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| * nsh wonders why the proof of no-wrapping in single-homomorphic ElGamal or other contexts is the 'expensiver, larger' kind | 12:57 | |
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| gmaxwell | nsh: larger compared to what? | 12:58 |
| nsh | from the context i guess larger than snark-type proofs ( http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-adam3us-fungibility-privacy/ ) | 12:59 |
| nsh | -- | 12:59 |
| nsh | o then there's the idea that you could do something to cryptographically hide the value in a way that would be compatible with bitcoin. There's a homomorphic encryption method. There's also single-homomorphic encryption, which means you could have encrypted values such that you have an encrypted value A, and add to the ciphertext the encrypted value of B, and the result is the decryption of A + B. So decryption can work through encryption for some scheme | 12:59 |
| nsh | s like ElGamal which works with a variant elliptic curve (51m 39sec). This addition is not normal addition, it's addition modulo n the order of the curve. Knowing that, if you were using these coins, you could add n to your balance, so it oculd become an easy way to print unlimited amounts of bitcoin basically, so you have to use a zero-knowledge range proof to prevent the wrapping, and it's an expensive larger kind of proof. | 12:59 |
| nsh | This zero-knowledge range proof from Schoenmakers 2000 ish, I tried to optimize it. The normal bitcoin value is 8 bytes, 64 bits, and the optimized range proof in homomorphic value is about 1 kilobyte per encrypted value. That's quite a bit of bloat, but it could be interesting for high-value transactions where you don't want to reveal the contract amount or something. Basically it just works because the exponent or the scalar multiplies in elliptic curv | 12:59 |
| nsh | e notation add up. So there's a random value x, which is just to hide the values which cannot be bruteforced, and then a second base h and the value is v, and it also works with unencrypted values, you can mix both encrypted and unencrypted values. You need the fee to be in the clear so that the miner can accept it. It's a different privacy feature than cryptographically anonymous coins. The transactions are linkable, but people can't tell how much money | 12:59 |
| nsh | is changing hands. | 12:59 |
| nsh | -- | 13:00 |
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| nsh | can you not do something like have an additional quadratic function of the total and an argument that the relation that only holds for n equals 1 | 13:01 |
| nsh | (relation between the linear function and quadratic function) | 13:01 |
| gmaxwell | You cannot compute point times point in a regular ec group. | 13:01 |
| nsh | oh, right | 13:02 |
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| nsh | could you pair with another nonlinear function that doesn't require point multiplication? | 13:02 |
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| andytoshi | nsh: i think if you found such a function that did anything useful for you, it'd turn out to be a pairing (maybe a pairing composed with some weird isomorphism) | 13:26 |
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| * nsh nods | 13:26 | |
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| nsh | kanzure, pull requested | 13:37 |
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| prevara | anyone wanna trade\ | 14:41 |
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| leakypat | theymos: hey, just FYI bitcointalk seem to be blocked for most people in Asia now | 14:44 |
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| fluffypony | leakypat: off topic, try a PM | 14:47 |
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| * prevara I am selling worwide paypal and wellfargo account msg me if intrested | 14:58 | |
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| nsh | prevara, not here. | 15:06 |
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| kanzure | nsh: merged | 15:38 |
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| gmaxwell | "Who can help me engange in brain surgery? my neighbor has a tumor. I pay to learn. pm me." ... ::sigh:: re people spamming #bitcoin-dev about their new coin creations when they dunno how to even compile the software. :( | 17:12 |
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| midnightmagic | I'd buy that for a dollar.. | 17:13 |
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| Meisterbrau | http://bitcoinmacroeconomics.com/2015/06/12/velazquez-vs-werdum-ufc-188/ LIVE UFC / PLACE YOUR BET IN SECONDS | 17:55 |
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| kanzure | gmaxwell: you don't need brain surgery to remove brain tumors, see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/High-intensity%20focused%20ultrasound%20with%20large%20scale%20spherical%20phased%20array%20for%20the%20ablation%20of%20deep%20tumors%20-%202009.pdf | 19:45 |
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| zooko | I actually did, I think, save a person from brain cancer. #offtopic | 20:38 |
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| kanzure | making a stable cryptocash system can have that effect on people, yes | 20:47 |
| zooko | lolwut | 20:50 |
| kanzure | well how else are they going to pay for brain cancer treatment | 20:50 |
| zooko | a) I haven't made a stable cryptocurrency (yet), b) no that's not how I saved his life. | 20:51 |
| zooko | c) where's the #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic channel? Oh, I think I just created it. | 20:51 |
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| zooko | Also, I'd like to point out something to you about that theory of the mechanics of aging and why keto diet should be expected to slow aging if that mechanical explanation is right. | 20:52 |
| kanzure | i suggested ##hplusroadmap for that | 20:52 |
| zooko | ... as soon as you join #bitcoin-wizards-offtopic, or direct me to another forum and tell me that you really want to hear ... | 20:52 |
| zooko | Ok! | 20:52 |
| zooko | Sorry, I forgot that channel last time around. Writing it down ... | 20:52 |
| kanzure | anyway, anti-inflammation stuff seems kinda obvious | 20:52 |
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| @gmaxwell | FWIW, after the positive reaction on reddit, I linked the CT writeup on hackernews. | 23:30 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Jun 14 00:00:41 2015 | ||
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