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| kanzure | someone suggests designing a hash function that uses a local lookup table to make the hash constrained by memory-bandwidth. he claims that this prevents asics (which i doubt.. why can't i make high-memory-bandwidth asics?) (plus i'm not convinced that's desirable). | 06:32 |
|---|---|---|
| narwh4l | kanzure: has he not heard of the hash functions that rely on memory bandwidth? | 06:34 |
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| narwh4l | kanzure: prevent asics? lol | 06:34 |
| kanzure | well, i certainly haven't looked at memory-bandwidth-constrained hash functions yet | 06:35 |
| @gmaxwell | kanzure: see descussions of the bcrypt like sboxes in yescrypt... but the argument is kinda weak. | 06:35 |
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| StephenM347 | Does BIP62 cover addition of OP_NOPs into the scriptSig? | 08:08 |
| StephenM347 | I suppose this counts as a 'non-push operation' | 08:09 |
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| wumpus | StephenM347: yes | 08:27 |
| wumpus | only direct pushes, OP_PUSHDATAn, OP_n are considered push opcodes, see CScript::IsPushOnly | 08:33 |
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| StephenM347 | wumpus: Just double checking, thanks | 08:37 |
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| kanzure | petertodd: can you show me "recursive snarks" stuff if any exists? | 12:08 |
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| amiller | kanzure, do you want papers? | 12:09 |
| amiller | http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/095 Recursive Composition and Bootstrapping for SNARKs and Proof-Carrying Data | 12:09 |
| amiller | this one lays out the basic theory for it but not necessarily practical | 12:10 |
| amiller | https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/976 Geppetto: Versatile Verifiable Computation | 12:10 |
| amiller | this does *one layer* of snark composition... it has an inner snark and an outer snark... its practical and efficient but no code is released yet (the author is nice and will probably release it soon) | 12:11 |
| amiller | https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/595 Scalable Zero Knowledge via Cycles of Elliptic Curves | 12:11 |
| kanzure | i will always take papers | 12:13 |
| amiller | this one finds parameters for arbitrary recursive composition.... it's about finding two related elliptic curves, such that you can run the snark algorithm for B in the exponent of curve A, and vice versa.... the concrete performance is a lot worse than geppetto but you can do as many layers as yo uawnt | 12:13 |
| amiller | i have heard that there is recursive composition as per the 2014/595 paper already implemented in libsnark, but I can't see it. maybe it's not released yet. | 12:15 |
| kanzure | unrelated, but have you looked at sequential abbreviated signatures before? | 12:15 |
| kanzure | oh strange; for some reason i was not aware that libsnark has active development. | 12:17 |
| kanzure | (just fetched their latest commits) | 12:17 |
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| amiller | yeah, libsnark is definitely under active development | 12:22 |
| * Luke-Jr wonders how long until there's a sandbox that can just execute snarks <.< | 12:22 | |
| amiller | Luke-Jr, ive been working on that actually | 12:23 |
| zooko | ☺ | 12:24 |
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| theymos | weex, maaku: BitcoinJ only connects to nodes returned by the DNS seeds, so if you ensure that all of the DNS seeds return trustworthy peers on the right side of the fork, this'll protect most SPV wallets. | 14:24 |
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| phantomcircuit | theymos, that's hilariously the same security model as a bunch of the PoS things | 14:28 |
| phantomcircuit | "if the first node you hear about is trustworthy then you're securE!" | 14:28 |
| phantomcircuit | k | 14:28 |
| phantomcircuit | i assume you're not seriously proposing that as a valid security model :) | 14:29 |
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| theymos | phantomcircuit: It's not good, but that's what BitcoinJ actually does now. So it's an option until that's fixed. | 14:32 |
| theymos | Fixing it is more difficult than it looks at first because SPV clients have less ability to detect bad peers. | 14:33 |
| phantomcircuit | theymos, i've actually been arguing recently that there basically shouldn't be any SPV nodes as they exist today | 14:34 |
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| theymos | What do you propose as an alternative? | 14:34 |
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| phantomcircuit | theymos, start with a pure spv node and then upgrade the security of the installation overtime | 14:35 |
| phantomcircuit | ie | 14:35 |
| phantomcircuit | first spv checks | 14:35 |
| phantomcircuit | then sanity check all blocks | 14:36 |
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| phantomcircuit | saving only the hash of the last blocks you checked | 14:36 |
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| phantomcircuit | congrats you've now managed to significantly improve security without storing much of anything | 14:36 |
| phantomcircuit | the key is to note that running most of the sanity checks like maximum blocksize are independent of each other | 14:37 |
| phantomcircuit | brb | 14:38 |
| theymos | That's a good idea. Probably miners should commit to that sort of "sanity" stuff by including it in their coinbase transaction or something. Then lightweight clients don't have to download as much data. | 14:39 |
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| rusty | phantomcircuit: I'd like to see SPV nodes do something like "adopt-a-block" where they pick (one or more) random blocks and store and verify it, then maintain proofs of all spends of outputs in that block. | 17:15 |
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| maaku | rusty: how do you verify the inputs to the block though? | 17:17 |
| maaku | i mean it's a good idea, but there's an engineering challenge there | 17:18 |
| rusty | maaku: best effort; but I think it's kind of a ratchet as more people do this. | 17:18 |
| @gmaxwell | certantly easy to do that in pruned nodes; (though random blocks by themselves are not quite ideal as you have a discovery problem) | 17:18 |
| @gmaxwell | rusty: with the bitcoin commitment structure there is almost nothing to can verify statelessly like that, at least not without huge overhead-- can't verify signatures or fees or the coinbase output amount. :( | 17:19 |
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| @gmaxwell | this old page https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/features#Proofs walks over some of that (I may have shown that to you before) | 17:19 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: sure, but you can provide proofs if future blocks have double-spends. | 17:19 |
| maaku | rusty: I mean, for a given input all you have is the txid hash of the input. i suppose you could build a bloom filter of all the inputs to the block and do a bloom filter "wallet" sync. | 17:20 |
| maaku | I shudder to think what that do to full nodes resource usage though :\ | 17:20 |
| rusty | maaku: yeah, don't do that. But you'd need something like that to get txs which spend from your adopted block(s). | 17:21 |
| maaku | wait duh bloom filters are over scriptPubKeys not txids | 17:21 |
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| @gmaxwell | rusty: well my point at that page was less the random checking and more the random verification a check, I was still assuming someone somehere ran a (pruned) full node and would notice the invalidity and then it would propagate. | 17:21 |
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| @gmaxwell | but indeed some kind of filtering could make actual fraud discovery also perhaps work. | 17:22 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: I'm trying to push it to the extreme, where SPV nodes can fill archive and fraud proof requirements which currently require full nnodes. | 17:22 |
| maaku | rusty: I think that's the desired end-state of pruned nodes | 17:23 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: not sure it's possible, if most nodes won't relay txs to you they're not personally interested in though. | 17:23 |
| rusty | maaku: yeah, and I guess the "last N blocks" is the thing you want assured in *practice*. | 17:24 |
| maaku | so with txout commitments that's the goal -- you sync utxo state and work your way backwards N blocks | 17:25 |
| rusty | maaku: That would be nice. adopt-a-block might still make sense for archival purposes. But as gmaxwell said, discoverability problem. | 17:28 |
| @gmaxwell | well I've suggested before that listening nodes could advertise a single short nonce and a size, and from that you can compute at any time what block range(s) they will have. | 17:29 |
| @gmaxwell | which solves discoverability. | 17:29 |
| @gmaxwell | but I was thinking that more in terms of pruned full nodes, not SPV adopt a block. | 17:29 |
| akrmn | rusty: that's why I'm telling people subchains are good for scaling (you can constraint outputs to subchains). But still waiting for sipa's response to that. | 17:30 |
| akrmn | Mike Hearn suggested SPV some storing random subsets of blocks but I doubt that would be reliable. | 17:31 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: yeah, you could still hack it by relaying requests (and results) I guess. Might have to if SPV nodes are generally not listening nodes. | 17:31 |
| akrmn | *SPV nodes | 17:31 |
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| rusty | maaku: BTW, I re-read my notes on SPV proof minimization. My conclusion was that it's far easier if we select a point to optimize for; I was using the genesis block but that's not actually what we want. | 17:32 |
| rusty | maaku: it's an engineering question, really. 144 blocks ago? 1008 blocks? | 17:33 |
| moa | pruned nodes could keep last-120 plus adopt-N-blocks | 17:33 |
| @gmaxwell | moa: bitcoin core won't even currently run without 288 of the most recent, fwiw. | 17:35 |
| moa | oh right ... last-288 | 17:36 |
| moa | 120 is coinbase spend | 17:36 |
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| maaku | moa: 100 | 17:37 |
| moa | hah | 17:37 |
| moa | is there any work done on researching UXTO distributions over block height? ... i.e. are some block 'eras' more uxto dense than others? | 17:41 |
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| @gmaxwell | very much so. | 17:42 |
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| moa | som inherently not all blocks are 'equal' in the snese that some blocks have more value than others in terms of informational content | 17:51 |
| moa | so not som | 17:51 |
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