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| fluffypony | http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/academic-publishers-reap-huge-profits-as-libraries-go-broke-1.3111535 | 12:43 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | science undergoing a 51% attack :-P | 12:43 |
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| jcorgan | lol | 13:28 |
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| leakypat | Was thinking about full nodes and the fact that an ever decreasing number of people use always on PCs at home anymore | 14:55 |
| leakypat | People use laptops instead and so node is on/off line depending on what they are doing | 14:56 |
| leakypat | Apple managed to sell those Timemachine boxes a few years back as a wifi station / backup solution | 14:57 |
| leakypat | Being able to buy a stand-alone full node in non intrusive hardware box might be a solution | 14:58 |
| phantomcircuit | leakypat, unfortunately people doing that are consistently producing underpowered systems | 15:01 |
| kanzure | isn't that just increasing the attack surface for at-home consumer electronics and wallet storage stuff | 15:01 |
| phantomcircuit | amusingly none of them would work with > 1MB blocks within about 6 months | 15:02 |
| leakypat | kanzure: you mean interns of back-dooming the hardware device? | 15:02 |
| kanzure | a backdoor installed by an intern? yea that too | 15:03 |
| phantomcircuit | lol | 15:03 |
| leakypat | Oops | 15:03 |
| leakypat | Same issue with everyone running nodes on cloud services though | 15:03 |
| phantomcircuit | leakypat, i think you can build something that would be reasonable as an always on system for about $500 | 15:04 |
| phantomcircuit | if the system isn't truly always on though the cost goes up rapidly | 15:04 |
| phantomcircuit | since the performance of the system is now 1:1 correlated with how long it takes after startup for it to be useful | 15:05 |
| phantomcircuit | afaict people are targetting $100 or so | 15:05 |
| leakypat | phantomcircuit: something eg a business accepting Bitcoin can install and forget about? | 15:05 |
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| phantomcircuit | which isn't going to work | 15:05 |
| phantomcircuit | leakypat, as long as it's actually online all the time | 15:05 |
| phantomcircuit | it's fine | 15:05 |
| kanzure | leakypat: so far i can't think of any reasons why you should install that equipment (especially if you are not using the self-validation benefits) | 15:05 |
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| phantomcircuit | if they turn it off at night or whatever then it's going to get more expensive fastish | 15:06 |
| leakypat | Yeah $100 sounds right :( | 15:06 |
| leakypat | kanzure: incentives to run one? | 15:06 |
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| leakypat | kanzure: I'm thinking about packaging with a wallet business package or home "money" system | 15:07 |
| kanzure | ah okay, so something left of "apocalypse banking kit" | 15:07 |
| kanzure | er, right of | 15:07 |
| leakypat | Hehe | 15:07 |
| phantomcircuit | leakypat, you cant even buy a decent processor for $100 | 15:08 |
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| kanzure | would be nice to have an "apocalypse banking kit" that did coinjoin and lightning network hub hubbing stuff | 15:08 |
| phantomcircuit | $100 gets you a very slow arm soc on a board with usb ports, sdcard, and ethernet | 15:09 |
| kanzure | or torrenting-for-fee stuff and tor-for-fee stuff (was the pay4tor stuff safe?) | 15:09 |
| phantomcircuit | with an sdcard that is only big enough for maybe 6 months | 15:09 |
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| phantomcircuit | i guess if those had pruning and were actually online 24x7 maybe they could work | 15:10 |
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| leakypat | Or some way to add remote storage? | 15:11 |
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| kanzure | well, i think those problems are still up in the air regarding sybil and fairness | 15:12 |
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| leakypat | Or some scheme where every computer science university department runs an always on full node | 15:16 |
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| leakypat | I guess the real problem is incentive to run one :/ | 15:17 |
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| phantomcircuit | leakypat, that's more or less useless | 15:17 |
| phantomcircuit | there's more than enough bandwidth to push the blockchain to peers | 15:18 |
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| phantomcircuit | which is the only thing that cs dept would be useufl for | 15:18 |
| leakypat | Yeah, I see | 15:19 |
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| kanzure | and if there was some monetary incentive then there might be policy reasons against operating that node in an official capacity by those departments anyway | 15:20 |
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| leakypat | The decline in the number of nodes... What do you see as the profile of the person who stopped running the node? | 15:32 |
| leakypat | Eg. Enthusiast who got tired of running it on his pc and just stuck an SPV wallet on his phone instead ? | 15:33 |
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| leakypat | The general churn of Bitcoin users so the wallet options are not full nodes anymore for new entrants? | 15:34 |
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| fluffypony | OT: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund | 16:06 |
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| phantomcircuit | leakypat, there was a period in which anybody who showed up would be told to run multibit | 16:20 |
| phantomcircuit | that was a mistake | 16:20 |
| leakypat | Multibit is SPV ? | 16:21 |
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| leakypat | I see it is | 16:21 |
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| CodeShark | SPV is one of those design problem things to look out for in future projects ;) | 17:06 |
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| CodeShark | prunability and aligned incentives to trustlessly outsource succinct proofs are required for anything like that to be practical | 17:09 |
| CodeShark | merkle trees for blocks was a good start...but not a good end :) | 17:11 |
| CodeShark | I should say to trustlessly have succinct proofs produced...not necessarily "outsourced"...too many connotations | 17:14 |
| CodeShark | in certain contexts at least one of the parties clearly has an interest to compute and store proofs relevant to their contracts | 17:15 |
| CodeShark | but if there's a dispute you still have your loaded gun | 17:16 |
| CodeShark | even if the bullet isn't free :) | 17:16 |
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| CodeShark | in the worst of cases you take your case global and win (if you're right)...more costly than settling directly, but the uncooperative party can be held responsible for a good portion if not all of that extra cost. | 17:20 |
| CodeShark | a justice system that relies on cryptographic signatures and witnesses for authorization...and whose interpretation of the law comes down to running computer programs | 17:23 |
| CodeShark | it all relies on strong consensus at the top level, though...this is still a problem | 17:24 |
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| leakypat | So, back to my point about lack of nodes, is it fair to say that centralized and SPV wallets have been created with a view to there being some kind of large scale adoption and these non "Power users" needing something quick and easy to use | 19:51 |
| leakypat | The adoption hasn't happened and so the result has been "power users" have ditched their nodes and are using centralized and SPV solutions because it's easy | 19:52 |
| leakypat | So, a few years ago, all the dudes at my meetup would have been running full nodes, now instead they use breadwallet to buy their beers | 19:53 |
| CodeShark | having each peer validating every single beer purchase on the entire planet doesn't seem like a good idea :p | 19:54 |
| leakypat | Depends on the beer | 19:54 |
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| leakypat | My point being is that centralized wallets (like mine) and SPV wallets have basically disincentive zed power users from running full nodes | 19:55 |
| CodeShark | people who know what they're doing generally keep around a full node or two | 19:55 |
| CodeShark | but that's not most :p | 19:56 |
| leakypat | Yeah, exactly, it's like 20% of Bitcoin enthusiasts or something | 19:56 |
| CodeShark | on the other hand many of these cases are high use high volume cases | 19:57 |
| CodeShark | but still, we're hitting a scalability wall :p | 19:58 |
| CodeShark | it's inevitable | 19:58 |
| leakypat | What cases are high use high volume? | 19:59 |
| CodeShark | nvm :p | 20:00 |
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| kanzure | i really doubt it's 20% of all bitcoin enthusiasts. it would have to be a much lower percentage to match other observed measureguesses. | 20:23 |
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| moa | it's a long september effect .... a smaller and smaller percentage of new users will be full-node 'material' | 20:44 |
| moa | like second law of adoption: the level derp will always increase | 20:46 |
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| leakypat | kanzure: you think lower? By enthusiasts I mean meetup regulars etc. | 21:07 |
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