2015-07-01.log

--- Log opened Wed Jul 01 00:00:57 2015
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amillerthe new "Enigma" project from MIT media lab... it's multi-party computation on the blockchain http://enigma.media.mit.edu/01:43
amillerwhitepaper [x]    scholarly paper [ ]    code [ ]01:44
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amilleri can't figure it out: are they just proposing to put the entire transcript of a generic multi-party computation on the blockchain? or is there some fancy way of compressing that down01:46
gmaxwellyou can tell by the 'media' in the URL.01:46
gmaxwellamiller: there is a trivial way to compress it down, as discussed here before in the past; dunno what they suggest.01:46
gmaxwell(any turn based MPC you have the players sign off at each step with a state commitment, so you can truncate the transcript.. if they complete and all sign the final step, you can just elide the whole transcript)01:47
amillergmaxwell, ok i know what you mean - they're claiming this defends against users/clients/public against ALL of the MPC nodes going bad01:48
amiller                         but01:48
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M-_mis' "invalidate by signature, not by censorship" —@CodeShark01:49
gmaxwelluhh. not sure how that works unless the MPC is active secure and produces ZKPs as a side effect (many active secure ideas are just passive secure plus a ZKP, so thats not far fetched).01:50
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midnightmagiclol, DHT rises again02:04
amilleryeah that's the next big problem02:09
amillerthere's just a DHT thats assumed to work02:09
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amilleranother problem is they don't seem to put much thought into protecting your data from colluding nodes02:12
amillerthis is from the wired article: "If enough Enigma nodes work together, they can team up to decrypt and steal the user’s data. But that kind of collusion isn’t likely, says Zyskind."02:12
gmaxwell:-/02:13
amillerbut section 5.3 "network reduction" actually makes that much worse: "a random subset of the entire network is selected to perform a computation"02:14
gmaxwellmakes me think of that torcoin paper where they just defined out sybil attacks.02:14
CodeSharkif you can't change the theory change the facts :p02:15
CodeSharkand pretend like someone's done the math but don't want to bore them with the details if anyone asks02:16
CodeSharkdecentralization without proper incentives == centralization with a lot of extra headache02:17
gmaxwellsounds like an interesting effort in any case, I've queued it to actually read.02:21
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nshDHT plus secret-sharing plus threshold computation plus blockchain for access and reference02:32
nshplus a lot of hyperbole02:32
amillerthey have a peer-reviewed workshop paper (paper) http://web.media.mit.edu/~guyzys/data/ZNP15.pdf  (slides) http://ieee-security.org/TC/SPW2015/IWPE/5.pdf02:33
CodeSharkehm...what can I say...I encourage people to think about these kinds of issues :)02:34
amilleryeah, definitely02:36
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nshit's all grist [and probably unpruneable UTXOs] to the mill02:38
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CodeSharkoh he's even got Gentry's "Fully homomorphic encryption using ideal lattices." in his biblio :p02:54
CodeSharkor they, I should say02:54
amillerthat's fine, it doesn't overstate anything about FHE... although the wired article makes it seem like FHE is what they're doing :)02:57
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amiller"Using Bitcoin security deposits for punishing malicious nodes in MPC has been investigated by several scholars recently [22, 23].  We use a similar model, and extend it to penalize other malicious behaviors such as breaking correctness"03:31
amillerso, the other academic papers on multiparty computing in Bitcoin, including [22, 23] are way further along03:31
amillerthese are peer reviewed a lot more strictly... viciously might be the best word... in the most selective conferences like Crypto and Oakland03:33
amillerthe main novelty Enigma is claiming compared to those is enforcing correctness even if a majority of the nodes in a computation are corrupted03:35
amillerbut that's exactly the thing that seems (unless we missed something surprising!) to add totally impractical on-chain costs03:35
amillerthey forgot a subsequent CCS paper (another elite conference) by authors of [22] http://people.csail.mit.edu/ranjit/papers/incentives.pdf  and a new preprint by other authors http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/57403:38
amillerall of these feature *off chain multi-party computations*!03:39
amillerand thats a great idea03:40
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nshthose last two papers (and talks at simons inst.) were pretty impressive03:43
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amillerspeaking of which... the "spacecoin" author also visited simons inst.   i appreciate the spacecoin paper way more now after watching its author bash with bramc at the sf bitcoin dev meetup03:58
nshwas that recorded?03:59
amilleri thought it was. but i can't find it on here http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bitcoin-Devs/events/223291673/04:00
nshah04:00
nsh.wik Pebble motion problems04:04
yoleaux"The pebble motion problems, or pebble motion on graphs, are a set of related problems in graph theory dealing with the movement of multiple objects ("pebbles") from vertex to vertex in a graph with a constraint on the number of pebbles that can occupy a vertex at any time. Pebble motion problems occur in domains such as multi-robot motion  …" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_motion_problems04:04
amillerpebbling is a proof technique in cryptography, it's good for showing that there's no space-time tradeoff in various ways04:05
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amilleri guess its always used to show something about time-memory tradeoffs04:06
amillerthe hard-to-parallelize ones i think don't use that proof technique04:06
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nshah04:07
nsh.wik Pebble game04:08
yoleaux"In mathematics and computer science, a pebble game is a type of mathematical game played by moving "pebbles" or "markers" on a directed graph. A variety of different pebble games exist. A general definition of pebbling is given below." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_game04:08
amillerhere's i think the first one to do that http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hoeteck/pubs/pebble-crypto05.pdf to do that04:09
nshand this comes up: High Parallel Complexity Graphs and Memory-Hard Functions -- https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/238.pdf04:10
amilleryup, would you believe that was also a talk at simons isnt. but it went unrecorded04:11
nshshame04:11
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nsh"Commonly G describes the dependencies between inputs, intermediate values and the outputs involved in computing f_G."   # interesting. i wonder what a pebbling of a hash collision looks like04:16
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nshwhat was the wizardly-wisdom on the darkleaks concept?  i seem to recall some theoretical issue with the random reveal scheme maybe06:28
nsh( https://github.com/darkwallet/darkleaks )06:29
nshwow, google sure updates the logs for this channel with gusto... 20s after writing that line it was a result in a search.06:30
nshah, found " though sadly the utility is kind of narrow. The class of information where a random sample doesn't stand a risk of giving away all the value, and where the value can't be sapped by a few careful redactions which sampling is unlikely to reveal (even if it hits them, you can't tell what was missing), I think is not so broad." -- gmax06:31
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TaekIs there a good definition for the idea of a 'political entity'?11:07
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Taeki.e., Google, while composed of 10,000s of people, is generally considered as 1 entity, because everyone acts with united purpose11:08
Taekand so Google owning 51% mining power would be very bad11:09
Taekeven if no particular person is controlling more than 20% of the mining rigs within Google11:09
Taeksomething like the coalition of mining pools in China wouldn't necessarily be considered 1 political entity though, because their common goals are under very constrained terms11:10
ThinThreadis humanity a (possibly galactic) political entity?11:11
Taekthey are 1 entity as far as their cooperation around 8mb blocks is concerned, but beyond that they can be considered separate11:11
TaekI think it depends on what set of goals you are considering11:11
ThinThreadi like to focus on our similarities instead of our differences11:12
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Taekthat's great, but understanding our differences is useful for constructing threat models11:13
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waxwingnsh: one issue with that repo was use of ECB mode :)12:22
nshdarkleaks?12:22
waxwingyeah12:23
nsh:/12:23
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waxwingthe kind of issue you mention in the quote above, yeah that's an issue. the most obvious application, given that limitation, seems like the most depressing: password database leaks12:26
waxwingbut maybe that's too pessimistic, one could imagine other use cases perhaps12:26
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amillerhi GGuyZ18:15
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amillerGGuyZ, your connection seems super unstable! you should try an irc bouncer like znc18:17
GGuyZUnfortunately it's my wifi that's going crazy. I'll leave the channel for a bit to prevent spamming :).18:18
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amillersadfjpo18:18
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moahttp://it.slashdot.org/story/15/07/01/021424819:59
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