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| ThomasV | jgarzik: have recent versions of bitcoin merged some form of memorypool curator? | 04:23 |
|---|---|---|
| nsh | hm | 04:23 |
| nsh | in what sense of curation? | 04:23 |
| ThomasV | removing tx that are there for too long | 04:24 |
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| nsh | mempool references in changelog: https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=inurl%3Abitcoin.org%2Fen%2Frelease+%22mempool%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=MrvyVfjMCbPj8weaoJCYAQ | 04:26 |
| nsh | seem to be some nondefaul configurable mempool pruning options added in 0.11.0 | 04:27 |
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| ThomasV | I see | 04:28 |
| ThomasV | ""More robust solutions are being worked on for a follow-up release. | 04:29 |
| nsh | this patch will result in some transactions being removed from the mempool too: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/1c62e84 | 04:30 |
| nsh | but only nonstandard tx orphans i think | 04:30 |
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| bsm117532 | Would be happy to hear some feedback on how to scale bitcoin: http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin/ | 05:21 |
| gmaxwell | bsm117532: Thanks for your post. | 05:22 |
| nsh | cc kanzure | 05:22 |
| gmaxwell | I have only read the begging not the substance yet; but regardless of what I think about the substance-- I think the perspective is helpful. | 05:23 |
| bsm117532 | thanks gmaxwell | 05:23 |
| nsh | will you be at the scaling conf bsm117532? | 05:24 |
| bsm117532 | No, unfortunately, which is part of the reason to make this post. I hope it generates discussion there. | 05:24 |
| nsh | okay. kanzure is giving a synoptic presentation of a range of different candidate future directions/changes. he may like to discuss his draft with you | 05:25 |
| nsh | seems to be afk just now, but usually isn't too far from a keyboard :) | 05:26 |
| bsm117532 | My co-worker, Ivan Brightly, from SolidX will be there, and helped with editing/hashing out some of this. | 05:26 |
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| bsm117532 | I've chatted with him before here. He's in NYC and we do need to hook up. | 05:34 |
| bsm117532 | I'm going to start organizing "Whitepaper Wednesdays" here in coordination with BitDevs (http://www.meetup.com/BitDevsNYC/), I hope I can get him to come as well as any of the other devs. I'll make an announcement about that soon. | 05:35 |
| * nsh smiles | 05:39 | |
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| dgenr8 | bsm117532: wow. actual scaling ideas. not just new-ways-to-raise-blocksize-that-weren't-invented-by-gavin | 08:22 |
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| bsm1175321 | Hahaaa | 08:24 |
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| dgenr8 | but you won't be presenting at the meeting? that's a shame | 08:27 |
| bsm1175321 | No, sadly. I do have a draft "Braiding the Blockchain" which is idea #1 in my post (turning the blockchain into a DAG) that will be published soon-ish. | 08:28 |
| dgenr8 | idea (3) has the advantage of not requiring any kind of fork | 08:30 |
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| bsm1175321 | Indeed. I've not put a ton of thought into that one. I'm sure it has holes. | 08:31 |
| bsm1175321 | I'm not sure I like it either. There are probably better ways to shard the blockchain. I did notice there's a talk with that title at Scaling Bitcoin. | 08:32 |
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| bsm1175321 | I'll implement some of this and hopefully have it ready for the Hong Kong conference in December... | 08:44 |
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| dgenr8 | a UTXO lookup is done directly by tx hash, so that's the sharding approach i've thought about. | 08:49 |
| dgenr8 | the grinding idea is interesting but to really scale you need to focus on the services provided to lightweight wallets | 08:49 |
| dgenr8 | a lightweight wallet doesn't want to see even 1/256 of the traffic | 08:50 |
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| CodeShark | lookups by txout are probably far more useful than lookups by tx hash | 08:52 |
| CodeShark | at least for thin clients | 08:54 |
| bsm1175321 | A lightweight wallet doesn't have to be a shard. It just needs to get all its addresses on the same shard. | 08:55 |
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| bsm1175321 | That's going to be required for any sharding proposal. Obviously there are multiple ways to do that. | 08:56 |
| ThomasV | bsm117532: how would that work? | 08:57 |
| CodeShark | are you talking about something like brute-forcing them until you find one in the shard you want? | 08:57 |
| bsm1175321 | CodeShark: exactly. | 08:58 |
| bsm1175321 | Or you'd have to extend the address to include a shard identifier. | 08:58 |
| CodeShark | doesn't that entail some loss of privacy? | 08:59 |
| bsm1175321 | Yes. | 08:59 |
| bsm1175321 | I'm not necessarily a *fan* of this idea... | 08:59 |
| bsm1175321 | for that reason | 08:59 |
| bsm1175321 | I'm interested to hear what Vlad Zamfir has to say: https://scalingbitcoin.org/montreal2015/#schedule | 09:00 |
| tromp__ | wasn't he designing the POS system for Ethereum? | 09:01 |
| tromp__ | though he doesn't seem to cover that topic in this workshop... | 09:02 |
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| CodeShark | PoS meaning point of sale or proof of stake? | 09:06 |
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| CodeShark | bsm117532: what's the alternative to such sharding approaches? | 09:08 |
| bsm1175321 | I've not heard any other sharding proposals. I'd like to see some. | 09:09 |
| bsm1175321 | But if we don't do it, the resources required of a full node grow without bound and the system will collapse. | 09:10 |
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| Eliel | I don't see how including a shard identifier in an address would be worse than brute-forcing an address so that it effectively has a shard identifier. | 09:13 |
| bsm1175321 | They're functionally equivalent. Resource consumption on the part of the wallet is the only difference. | 09:15 |
| CodeShark | if we still maintain a distinction between "full validator" and "thin client" and just shard the former? | 09:20 |
| CodeShark | then thin clients can request short proofs from multiple "full validators" that cross the sharding boundaries, no? | 09:20 |
| CodeShark | it breaks the p2p model...but perhaps that's inevitable | 09:21 |
| CodeShark | then it's largely reduced to an issue of incentives | 09:23 |
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| Eliel | I don't think it makes sense for everyone to verify everything anyway. fraud proofs should suffice, as long as the system is designed to periodically reward people for doing it. | 09:28 |
| CodeShark | I've grown more and more skeptical of fraud proof approaches | 09:28 |
| Eliel | I think it can work. But only if there's an incentive to try to look for fraud. That's why there should be some kind of a reward available periodically in the form of intentional but harmless fraud. | 09:29 |
| Eliel | but should be indistinguishable from real fraud attempts. | 09:31 |
| CodeShark | that would go some ways towards solving the issues of battle testing and profitability - but it still might be open to "crying wolf" attacks | 09:32 |
| CodeShark | whereby the attacker deliberately commits fraud in a way that becomes too costly to prove | 09:33 |
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| Eliel | fraud that is too costly to prove sounds like a design error in the system design. | 09:34 |
| Eliel | I wonder if it'd be possible to create a PoW function out of some kind of fraud and fraud proof battle :P | 09:35 |
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| CodeShark | I think someone had done some work suggesting that the fraudsters have an advantage | 09:43 |
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| CodeShark | in that they can manufacture valid transactions and claim fraud...but where it's costly to prove they are valid | 09:45 |
| CodeShark | or something like that - but I haven't gone over the details | 09:45 |
| CodeShark | the idea is that eventually, people just stop paying attention to the fraud claims | 09:46 |
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| Eliel | that sounds more like a badly designed system rather than an inherent problem. | 09:54 |
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| CodeShark | yeah, I'm not entirely convinced this is a fundamental theoretical limitation | 10:00 |
| CodeShark | but it does seem hard to design a system that doesn't have such weaknesses | 10:00 |
| dgenr8 | the term "fraud proof" leads in impossible directions. a lightweight client just needs a way to gain confidence that asymptotically approaches 1 | 10:02 |
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| CodeShark | I think we can relax the term "proof" - perhaps "argument" is a better term | 10:05 |
| dgenr8 | and i'm referring to transactions. what satoshi mentioned was just alerts for invalid blocks which are much lower volume | 10:05 |
| CodeShark | right - but under what incentives model? | 10:08 |
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| CodeShark | it also seems somewhat fragile in that each "proof" builds upon the assumption that the previous n "proofs" are valid | 10:10 |
| dgenr8 | your question is - if a partial node is available that provides security to the network, and has configurably small resource requirements, what if nobody wants to run it? | 10:10 |
| CodeShark | I'm not convinced of the "small resource requirements" part | 10:11 |
| dgenr8 | its a hypothetical | 10:11 |
| dgenr8 | the existence of fullnodes today suggests that people will want to run it, imho | 10:12 |
| CodeShark | I suppose if the resource requirements were sufficiently small, it could work - but I'd be far more comfortable with a mechanism that can provide more direct incentives | 10:12 |
| Eliel | (which is why I suggested building a system where you can gain a little profit by finding fraud.) | 10:14 |
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| Eliel | but of course, such system needs to actually reliably have fraud for the incentive to exist. | 10:15 |
| dgenr8 | i'm not so sure i want my whole wallet on one shard. i'd rather a bunch of nodes involved in supplying the information | 10:15 |
| CodeShark | most problematic, though, is being able to bound "small resource requirements" adequately | 10:16 |
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| CodeShark | as technology improves, computational cost goes down - but that's more than offset by the increased costs that come from network growth | 10:17 |
| CodeShark | that's likely to be the case until we achieve saturation | 10:17 |
| CodeShark | and saturation is achieved when supply and demand curves ultimately intersect | 10:18 |
| dgenr8 | if lightweight wallet has 12 peers and 6 addresses, it can tell two peers about each address. many individual wallets don't need that many active addresses | 10:19 |
| CodeShark | I also think we should get rid of the term "address" in this context :p | 10:19 |
| dgenr8 | its just too easy | 10:19 |
| CodeShark | it confuses the discussion :) | 10:19 |
| CodeShark | the confusion will get even worse when we start talking about routable overlay protocols | 10:20 |
| bsm1175321 | @CodeShark yes I was referring to sharding only "full validators". I'm not sure what "thin client" means in this context? Just SPV? | 10:21 |
| CodeShark | basically, most wallets - something like SPV (but I don't really like the term SPV because it is associated with Satoshi's specific tx merkle tree scheme) | 10:22 |
| bsm1175321 | The fact is that a shard has to be able to validate a transaction. If it has to query other nodes to get UTXO's it doesn't have, then you haven't solved any problems -- you divided storage at the cost of increased network traffic. | 10:22 |
| bsm1175321 | So one way or another, SOME shard has to have ALL the data it needs to validate a single transaction. | 10:23 |
| dgenr8 | okay but not broadcast traffic | 10:23 |
| CodeShark | yes, we should think of transactions as atomic state updates - and validators should count on having locally available all the data they need to validate each such update | 10:23 |
| bsm1175321 | exactly. | 10:23 |
| bsm1175321 | Get rid of the "block" entirely. ;-) | 10:24 |
| dgenr8 | doesn't that devolve to being a trusted peer | 10:24 |
| dgenr8 | why can't lightweight client validate each input separately | 10:24 |
| CodeShark | the "block" concept's purpose is really about timestamping these updates more than anything else | 10:24 |
| CodeShark | well, also about generating new coins, I suppose | 10:25 |
| bsm1175321 | A lightweight client has to have every UTXO being spent to validate it. | 10:25 |
| dgenr8 | yep. so it asks for them | 10:25 |
| bsm1175321 | CodeShark: a DAG/braid can be well-ordered in time. | 10:25 |
| CodeShark | yeah, it's really about permissionless updates that cannot be reversed | 10:26 |
| CodeShark | blocks commit the state changes and impose a real computational cost to rolling it back | 10:27 |
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| bsm1175321 | One could mine individual transactions, as well as groups of transactions, to create the DAG/braid. | 10:29 |
| bsm1175321 | It requires a separate kind of "PoW notification block" which ties two or more mini-blocks or transactions together. | 10:30 |
| CodeShark | so perhaps make the PoW cost proportional to the number of updates performed? | 10:32 |
| bsm1175321 | Yes. Similar to Peter Todd's Tree-Chain idea, you'd end up with more work as transactions are grouped, and you head backwards in time along the block-braid. | 10:34 |
| bsm1175321 | I'm still noodling on what those requirements need to be... | 10:35 |
| CodeShark | regarding sharding proposals and stuff like tree chains, most efficient would probably be some sort of nesting whereby deeper levels are more "local" | 10:37 |
| CodeShark | but that also sacrifices privacy | 10:38 |
| CodeShark | at least at a local level | 10:38 |
| bsm1175321 | Peter's tree-chain is kind of a combination of sharding and my idea of a block-braid. It also has some fatal flaw that I can't remember right now... | 10:38 |
| CodeShark | haha | 10:38 |
| CodeShark | I'm not really familiar with your block braid idea - and I only have vague sketches in my mind regarding PT's tree chains | 10:39 |
| bsm1175321 | Oh...yeah...one can reallocate one's mining power to another shard, I think, and 51% attack it. | 10:39 |
| CodeShark | I've tried to get PT to explain in greater detail, but so far ony have basic glimpses :) | 10:39 |
| CodeShark | oh, right - that does seem like a serious issue | 10:40 |
| bsm1175321 | I haven't fully presented the block braid idea beyond what's in the above blog post. | 10:40 |
| bsm1175321 | However my idea is exceedingly similar to: http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_101.pdf | 10:40 |
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| nullbyte | bsm1175321: its exciting to even think about starting an implementation of that | 11:02 |
| bsm1175321 | I know!!! ;-) | 11:03 |
| bsm1175321 | I just started with SolidX and am happy to be able to get paid to put my time into it. :-) | 11:04 |
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| CodeShark | anyone else here presenting in montreal? | 15:21 |
| CodeShark | or is everyone else also too busy with preparations? | 15:22 |
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| tromp__ | busy reading https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1177633.0 | 16:21 |
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| instagibbs | Sigh I probably have thought about treechains more than most but I'm a little burned out on alternative chain structures. Someone tell me if they're worth reading :) | 16:45 |
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| midnightmagic | looks like another form of proof-of-stake | 17:08 |
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| kanzure | hash-tree with commutation, use xor of hashes and has a second time instead of just once | 20:44 |
| kanzure | make two copies of CScript instead of having just the one | 20:45 |
| kanzure | lightning network hot wallets ok as long as small denomination btc used, forcelock protocol to subsatoshi amounts for now (maybe) | 20:45 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Sep 12 00:00:08 2015 | ||
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