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| fluffypony | so | 05:29 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | Ledger. | 05:29 |
| fluffypony | I thought it was supposed to be an academic journal | 05:29 |
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| fluffypony | http://ledgerjournal.org/ojs/index.php/ledger/about/editorialTeam | 05:30 |
| fluffypony | that makes no sense. | 05:30 |
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| jgarzik | fluffypony, which part makes no sense? | 05:34 |
| fluffypony | jgarzik: spot the odd one out on the Editorial Board. | 05:35 |
| jgarzik | vitalik? | 05:35 |
| fluffypony | yup | 05:35 |
| fluffypony | if I'm submitting to an academic journal I would want the members of the editorial board to at least understand my submission | 05:35 |
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| azariah | fluffypony: why wouldn't he understand a submission? | 06:39 |
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| nsh | azariah, track record | 07:21 |
| nsh | he wrote a book on bitcoin theory, a lot of it was incorrect | 07:21 |
| nsh | iirc | 07:21 |
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| kanzure | some snarks stuff https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1201029.0 | 07:27 |
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| nsh | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss3u3eP_9d0 | 07:36 |
| yoleaux | The Gospel According to TCS - YouTube | 07:36 |
| nsh | (very good synoptic talk on progress of theoretical computer science, accessible, gets into the importance of zk as way of finding and securing the structure of problemspace) | 07:37 |
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| nsh | or at least, explicatively, it was finding that the proving power in zk is NP that opened the door to a bunch of other exciting developments since | 07:38 |
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| nsh | ('Proofs that yield nothing but their validity or all languages in NP have zero-knowledge proof systems' by O Goldreich, S Micali, A Wigderson - Journal of the ACM (JACM), 1991, ACM is now cited 1121 times) probably more than euclid or darwin's work directly | 07:42 |
| nsh | ) | 07:42 |
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| jgarzik | woot, another moxiebox hacker | 08:25 |
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| maaku | fluffypony: I sent an email to the ledger admins | 09:29 |
| maaku | would suggest others who have strong feelings do so | 09:29 |
| fluffypony | maaku: awesome, I'd be interested to see if anything comes of it, because right now it's hurting their credibility | 09:29 |
| fluffypony | yeah not a bad idea | 09:29 |
| andytoshi | fluffypony: can you CC me on that? or if you run it by my first i will put my name on it.. | 09:30 |
| fluffypony | andytoshi: will do | 09:31 |
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| andytoshi | vitalik does know a lot more than his blog posts suggest, but his attitude toward citations and correction are completely incompatible with a serious journal | 09:32 |
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| kanzure | "importance of citing other people's criticism and related work or comments" needs to be heavily emphasized to newcomers in this space | 09:33 |
| maaku | my email was basically 'you know this guy has been plagarizing the entire bitcoin space and demonstrated his ignornance of CS and cryptographic theory, right? but only slightly more polite... you can probably do better | 09:33 |
| kanzure | just like bitcoin is first intro to some people about how open-source software development works, same about "citing criticism" i'm sure. | 09:33 |
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| kanzure | just earlier today someone migrated from a crazy bitcoin github issue thread to bitcointalk, but failed to link to his existing criticism-- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1201006.msg12607730#msg12607730 | 09:34 |
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| fluffypony | kanzure: that's a good point - a lot of newcomers don't understand FOSS, and thus feel the need to assign "blame" and identify a "command structure" for everything | 09:40 |
| jgarzik | +1 | 09:41 |
| jgarzik | I've spent time just teaching the basics of OSS devel for the past several years | 09:42 |
| gmaxwell | fluffypony: in particular, a "strong" command structure. The whole notion of bitcoin as a decenteralized system where having no one "in charge" of it is an important security property. | 09:42 |
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| fluffypony | yep | 09:43 |
| gmaxwell | ... really blows quite a few people up. | 09:43 |
| kanzure | i would imagine the experience is sort of angering; "what do you mean this is using a model i've never even heard of? that's ridiculous" :-) | 09:43 |
| fluffypony | I also think people are surprised to understand that anyone can fork the project and provide a compelling reason for people to switch to "their" version, as has happened a myriad times in the past with so many FOSS projects | 09:44 |
| fluffypony | they can't understand how nobody can "own" the code | 09:44 |
| jcorgan | and the idea of bitcoin core devs "controlling" bitcoin is a myth; core devs can only propose changes (releases) and it is up to the users of the system to accept or reject consensus rule changes | 09:44 |
| kanzure | as bitcoin continues to grow, bitcoin will increasingly be people's first introduction to open-source software, or even academic criticism, and especially cryptography, or even basic software engineering principles (eventually) | 09:45 |
| kanzure | and perhaps one day people's first introduction to "money".. but whatever. | 09:45 |
| gmaxwell | As far as ledger goes, my view was that vitalik's involvement has been low; he gets signed up for all sorts of stuff. He isn't usually the sort to go throwing his weight around... and he has been one of the more enjoyable people in the bitcoin space to disagree with, at least for me. (I say this not discounting the above complaints). | 09:46 |
| kanzure | "ah but first you need to meditate for 7 years as a debian developer" | 09:47 |
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| gmaxwell | fluffypony: people reconize the tremendous power of inertia and defaults; and it's true and real-- but they carry it too far. | 09:47 |
| jcorgan | inertia + defaults + network effect = very strong equilibrium at the status quo | 09:48 |
| jcorgan | changes that would break the network effect (consensus rule changes) would have to be enormously, obviously beneficial to a large fraction of users to break past that | 09:49 |
| gmaxwell | Yep. | 09:50 |
| jcorgan | these are properties that few (if any?) other kind of FOSS has | 09:50 |
| fluffypony | gmaxwell: I take umbrage with him being involved in any formal peer review, no matter how low his involvement is. That would almost be as bad as asking him to run a company with millions of dollars in seed funding. | 09:50 |
| fluffypony | oh...wait... | 09:50 |
| gmaxwell | These effect exist elsewhere; esp any protocols; but they're stronger for bitcoin and in bitcoin they have independant virtue. | 09:50 |
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| kanzure | "only once you have experienced the pain of a hundred conflicting packages in a nasty web of dependencies, can you call yourself a free software developer" heh | 09:54 |
| kanzure | (of course i don't mean it; but it does seem strangely difficult to transfer bazaar-style development knowledge to newcomers.) | 09:55 |
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| jcorgan | some types of knowledge are only possible to obtain through experience and pain, either your own, or those who came before you. you pick :-) | 09:56 |
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| jcorgan | this seems to capture the state of cryptocurrency development well: | 10:03 |
| jcorgan | http://i.imgur.com/pAEYeYj.gifv | 10:03 |
| maaku | jcorgan: lol, nice | 10:08 |
| gmaxwell | ha | 10:09 |
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| gmaxwell | I like that it shows that the gatekeeper isn't fundimentally smarter; they just have a bit of hard earned domain-specific expirence. :) | 10:11 |
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| nsh | .t https://twitter.com/ncweaver/status/651109666831880192 | 12:11 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones for a list of options. | 12:11 |
| nsh | .tw https://twitter.com/ncweaver/status/651109666831880192 | 12:11 |
| yoleaux | Ha, some prankster is playing with Bitcoin malleability: https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3nfb2y/eli5_for_double_spends_bitcoin_being_sent_twice/ Screws up those looking for specific TX # to be confirmed. (@ncweaver) | 12:11 |
| nsh | .tw https://twitter.com/joshgiersch/status/651112135469178882 | 12:11 |
| yoleaux | Disappointing update: no negative wallet balance; just someone playing with transaction malleability & http://Blockchain.info freaking out (@joshgiersch, in reply to tw:651105610138800128) | 12:11 |
| nsh | :/ | 12:11 |
| nsh | this is one of those "we should fix it because if bc.i won't, then who can be expected to?" type things probably | 12:12 |
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| gmaxwell | [507618.242696] Clock: inserting leap second 23:59:60 UTC | 16:52 |
| gmaxwell | [594087.144135] Clock: inserting leap second 23:59:60 UTC | 16:52 |
| gmaxwell | [680556.059231] Clock: inserting leap second 23:59:60 UTC | 16:52 |
| * gmaxwell facepalm | 16:52 | |
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| nsh | wow, three for one! our benevolent masters must be winning against the vile oceanians | 16:56 |
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| gmaxwell | yea, because leap seconds totally happen three days in a row at the end of september. :-/ | 17:01 |
| TD-Linux | oh oh. is this chrony or ntpd? | 17:01 |
| nsh | maybe your computer just really wants to be in the rocky horror picture show | 17:02 |
| gmaxwell | TD-Linux: neighter of them were on the host so I assume it's systemd's fault! (debian testing) | 17:03 |
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| nsh | entirely plausible | 17:03 |
| TD-Linux | oh right, systemd has its own client now | 17:04 |
| TD-Linux | systemd-timesyncd | 17:04 |
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| GreenIsMyPepper | I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Linux, is in fact, systemd/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, systemd plus Linux. | 17:56 |
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| jgarzik | GreenIsMyPepper, :) | 17:57 |
| gmaxwell | tehehe | 17:59 |
| gmaxwell | "or linux--" | 17:59 |
| * nsh smiles | 17:59 | |
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| fluffypony | https://tersesystems.com/2015/10/05/effective-cryptography-in-the-jvm/ | 21:47 |
| fluffypony | .title | 21:47 |
| yoleaux | Effective Cryptography in the JVM - Terse Systems | 21:47 |
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