| --- Log opened Mon Oct 19 00:00:01 2015 | ||
| katu | andytoshi: have you seen this one? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/One-out-of-many%20proofs:%20or%20how%20to%20leak%20a%20secret%20and%20spend%20a%20coin.pdf | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| katu | mostly zerocoin, but apparently no RSA, log N sig sizes. still nested pedersen with that nasty cut-and-choose though | 00:01 |
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| gmaxwell | katu: it has unfriendly constant factors for small ring usage, and it's O(N) computation to verify-- limiting its use for larger rings; iirc. | 00:47 |
| katu | gmaxwell: :( i see why zerocoin guys ditched this approach in favor of snarks. | 00:59 |
| gmaxwell | I don't know that the zerocoin people ever looked at this. | 01:00 |
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| DeesWizard | hello Wizards!! | 01:49 |
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| fluffypony | https://littlemaninmyhead.wordpress.com/2015/09/28/so-you-want-to-learn-to-break-ciphers/ | 08:08 |
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| kanzure | https://weakdh.org/imperfect-forward-secrecy-ccs15.pdf | 10:27 |
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| bsm1175321 | Well isn't that just horrifying? | 10:39 |
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| katu | kanzure: old news | 10:43 |
| katu | it would be cooler if somebody just dumped torrents with precomputed NFS tables for some 512bit prime | 10:44 |
| bsm1175321 | How large would they be? | 10:44 |
| katu | apparently just orders of terabytes | 10:45 |
| kanzure | yes logjam is old news | 10:45 |
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| kanzure | but my intention wasn't to communicate news :-) | 10:46 |
| katu | :) | 10:46 |
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| katu | kanzure: i still can't wrap my head around how EC is fundamentally different in this regard, the way i see it its just TMTO, not really fancy math | 10:48 |
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| gmaxwell | katu: why would you think EC was fundimentally different? | 10:48 |
| gmaxwell | it isn't. The same precomputation works, it's just that people are not using such insecure groups with ECC. | 10:49 |
| katu | gmaxwell: they claim TMTO is somehow more difficult for ec | 10:49 |
| gmaxwell | Well they have a particularly efficient TMTO that indeed doesn't work for ecc, but I think thats not very important. | 10:49 |
| katu | as for "insecure", what do you mean? low group order relative to prime bit size? | 10:50 |
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| gmaxwell | katu: just one where, given known techniques, a single discrete log attack is cheap enough to actually perform. | 10:52 |
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| katu | gmaxwell: i presume you're referring to that NFS as a whole isnt really applicable to EC | 10:55 |
| katu | ie one gains nothing making tables of B-smooth relations | 10:56 |
| gmaxwell | right, well, not for well chosen ec groups. | 10:56 |
| katu | agreed, sampling anchor points for pollard rho is definitely less elegant | 10:56 |
| gmaxwell | There are NFS like techniques that work for certian special EC groups. | 10:56 |
| gmaxwell | (Including apparently all characteristic 2 groups; though it's not clear if the constant factors actually make it faster than simplistic methods) | 10:58 |
| katu | yeah, intuitively GF(2) seems like good candidate for algebraic shortcuts | 10:59 |
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| DeesWizard | hello wizards! | 11:00 |
| DeesWizard | hello wizards! | 11:00 |
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| @gmaxwell | (he's been doing this for days) | 11:00 |
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| fluffypony | man that was getting annoying, thanks gmaxwell | 11:02 |
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| DeesWizard | lolol | 11:09 |
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| bramc | My post on how wallets can handle transaction fees seems to have not generated any controversy at all, which I guess was my goal. | 13:51 |
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| morcos | bramc: I still havent read it yet! :) | 14:18 |
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| bramc | I can't claim any great originality for the technique I suggest. It's called escalator in the economics literature | 14:19 |
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| kanzure | .wik absolute hot | 14:42 |
| yoleaux | "Absolute hot is a concept of temperature that postulates the existence of a highest attainable temperature of matter. The concept has been popularized by the television series Nova." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_hot | 14:42 |
| kanzure | looks like physicists took my suggestion for an "absolute hottest wallet" to heart | 14:42 |
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| maaku | Not so much a limit as "if things get this hot, we don't have a clue what happens" | 14:47 |
| bsm1175321 | Yeah there is no absolute hot if gravity is asymptotically safe. But I digress... | 14:48 |
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| gwillen | bsm1175321: my reaction to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_safety_in_quantum_gravity is "... I know some of those words" | 14:54 |
| gwillen | (sorry, this is getting offtopic) | 14:54 |
| kanzure | "theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not short-term" sounds on-topic to me | 14:55 |
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| bramc | There's an analogous concept of the loudest possible sound https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-loudest-sound-on-earth | 15:01 |
| katu | bramc: i'd not dismiss mempool as easily. there are definitely hot and cold usage time spots. as for being prone to spoofing, i mean using it only as lower bound. | 15:01 |
| kanzure | bramc: originally "hottest possible wallet" was theorized because i wondered what possible physical limit there could be for those who wish to operate (unsafe) hot wallets | 15:03 |
| katu | (now ignoring low BDD 0-fee spam, but priority in terms of fee per byte, or BDD) | 15:03 |
| kanzure | e.g. sign everything as fast as possible | 15:03 |
| bramc | kanzure, What do you mean by a 'hot' wallet? | 15:04 |
| bramc | katu, In principle the stuff in mempool is potentially useful, but I find it dicey and the onus is on whoever wants to use that info to come up with algorithms and justify them. | 15:05 |
| kanzure | sign-immediately, connected to the interwebs; joke started when the bitstamp vulnerability was exploited. | 15:05 |
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| katu | bramc: however thats only from perspective of lone, opportunistic clients. if every wallet overzealously paced fees like this, it could paradoxically introduce flashcrowds where everyone has fee too low. | 15:07 |
| katu | reminds me of stupid torrent clients in swarm all fetching same piece, because it is rarest at that exact moment, and next moment it's the exact opposite. | 15:08 |
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| bramc | katu, Huh? If every wallet uses the algorithms I said prices will be very smoothed out with hardly any spikes at all | 15:11 |
| bramc | katu, When peers use rarest first it tends to result in a lot of pieces being tied for rarest, so that doesn't happen much either :-P | 15:11 |
| katu | bramc: yeah, i'm talking about hawking mempool for low usage. | 15:11 |
| bramc | Not sure what you mean by 'hawking'. It might be possible to, for example, realize that the price is about to dip because mempool is clearing out. | 15:12 |
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| katu | its not much about price, but evaluating priority slots of txes already in mempool | 15:13 |
| katu | you either fit the model or not | 15:13 |
| bramc | But if all wallets follow my advice the noise on mempool size will also be cut down dramatically, and even when it looks like it's getting low there are plenty of other transactions which will get propagated as soon as things get a bit more cleared out. | 15:13 |
| bramc | Not sure what you just said | 15:13 |
| katu | it should be possible to pretty much guarantee to be in next transaction just by modeling mempool tbh | 15:13 |
| katu | *next block | 15:13 |
| katu | bramc: there is assumption that you pretty much see the same mempool as miners in the best case. | 15:14 |
| katu | in the worst case, miners could try to foil it. | 15:14 |
| katu | you automatically account for the worst case. | 15:14 |
| bramc | That might be important if you really really want to be in the very next block | 15:15 |
| katu | well, its still statistics | 15:15 |
| katu | you cant model it exactly | 15:15 |
| katu | because you cant replace transaction once you decide on inputs and fee | 15:15 |
| katu | other txes might jump ahead the line with better offer | 15:16 |
| bramc | I'm assuming replace by fee. Nothing in my article makes sense without replace by fee. | 15:16 |
| katu | other = later | 15:16 |
| katu | oh | 15:16 |
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| bramc | It says that up at the top | 15:16 |
| katu | http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html | 15:17 |
| katu | last i remember people were vocally opposed to it | 15:17 |
| bramc | I'm vocally in favor of it :-P | 15:18 |
| katu | well, with this in place | 15:18 |
| katu | its possible to make fee schedule exactly deterministic | 15:18 |
| katu | whough the network chatter could be stormy as clients try to outbid each other :) | 15:18 |
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| nsh | And what rough beast, its hour come round at last / Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? | 15:20 |
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| bramc | katu, You should read my post, it's silly for me to rehash all of it in here https://medium.com/@bramcohen/how-wallets-can-handle-transaction-fees-ff5d020d14fb | 15:31 |
| bramc | Although I'm of course happy to explain and discuss | 15:31 |
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| bramc | amiller, I sent you mail covering just what the high level attacks are and some basic thoughts on them. It still wound up being the length of a freaking blog post. | 15:32 |
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| amiller | reading now | 15:32 |
| katu | bramc: sorry, just did ^f formula :) | 15:33 |
| bramc | katu, Not sure what you mean | 15:34 |
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| katu | bramc: i stand behind my words, though :( the only people to bother with fees are those paying per kb (ie huge txes). exponential backoff makes little sense, as you could as easily miss window of opportunity when your slot is cheap. | 15:39 |
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| gwillen | bramc: when you talk about miners including self-transactions to artifically fill their blocks with high fees -- doesn't it probably make more sense for them to just mine smaller blocks? | 15:39 |
| bramc | katu, The assumption is that transaction fees will become substantial, as outlined in the other articles I linked to | 15:39 |
| bramc | gwillen, Yeah but that isn't as sneaky. | 15:40 |
| gwillen | in other words, if the lowest fee in a block is X, rather than me mining a self-spend with fee X also, why not just stop the block there? | 15:40 |
| * gwillen nod | 15:40 | |
| gwillen | if people are reasoning about marginal fees, it doesn't seem like it should make any difference in the end | 15:40 |
| gwillen | and it sort of points out one reason miners might not do this, which is that it's going to squeeze out real fees | 15:40 |
| gwillen | which they otherwise could have mined | 15:41 |
| bramc | It's harder for people to detect that fees were temporarily raised by a rogue miner if it's padded, which makes fees likely to stay higher longer with the more naive fee setting mechanisms | 15:41 |
| katu | bramc: in which case the game becomes highly competetive and will resemble well informed auction. | 15:42 |
| katu | no room for stochastic bid approach :) | 15:42 |
| bramc | katu, An auction in which there's still a reward for patience | 15:42 |
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