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| instagibbs | what do you use for your LP? Cplex? | 04:38 |
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| zooko | tromp: want to tell about your Cuckoo Password Hash to earthrise on #leastauthority irc.oftc.net? He's curious about it. | 12:42 |
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| tromp | i need to fix my definition first. the current one doesn't quite correspond to d rounds of trimming | 12:43 |
| tromp | what's his email addr? | 12:44 |
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| zooko | tromp: he suggests that you post to the Password Hashing Competition mailing list by sending to submissions@password-hashing.net | 13:03 |
| tromp | ok, will do as soon as i find a clean formulation | 13:03 |
| zooko | ok. | 13:04 |
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| gmaxwell | tromp: for password hashing does the cookoo cycle formulation offer any particular advantage? (for proof of work the fast nearly memoryless validation is an obvious huge win.) | 13:07 |
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| tromp | the main attraction of fast verification is gone as you note. what's left is a deterministic hash function that has an elegantly simple definition and whose efficient computation is very memory intense (repeated updating of random 2-bit counters) | 13:09 |
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| gmaxwell | tromp: K. | 13:12 |
| tromp | btw, my definition amounts to a hash of the bitvector of cuckoo edges that survive d rounds of trimming | 13:13 |
| gmaxwell | I'm pretty disappointed how PHC's closure is panning out. | 13:16 |
| zooko | gmaxwell: what about it? | 13:17 |
| sipa | i googled "phc closure" and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsula_Hospital_Center turned up? | 13:19 |
| waxwing | lol | 13:20 |
| gmaxwell | zooko: that it's final but argon2 is still WIP. | 13:20 |
| zooko | gmaxwell: *nod* | 13:22 |
| katu | tromp: i'm not too familiar with cuckoo, but wouldn't fast verification make sense for mnemonics? | 13:25 |
| tromp | what do you mean by mnemonics and how does that relate to password hashing? | 13:26 |
| katu | ie the graph solution is the secret password, server can verify user entered password fast, but would-be adversary would have to crunch slow cuckoo solutions? | 13:26 |
| katu | tromp: think bitcoin mnemonic wallets | 13:27 |
| tromp | hmm, that's a neat idea | 13:27 |
| katu | obviously its not really applicable there, as nobody checks the hash is valid cuckoo (ie can be arbitrary, thus can be arbitrarily bruteforced) | 13:27 |
| tromp | so generating a password becomes very hard, and the harder you make it, the more work attackers face, but verification is always trivial | 13:30 |
| katu | yep | 13:30 |
| tromp | hmm, but you cannot make password harder by difficulty threshold | 13:30 |
| katu | not sure it brings anything over proof of work | 13:30 |
| katu | except memory hardness | 13:30 |
| tromp | only by taking larger instances of cuckoo | 13:30 |
| tromp | so i can make a password that will require attacker to have 32GB of memory | 13:31 |
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| katu | tromp: the key idea for this sort of mnemonics is to have short passwords | 13:32 |
| katu | ie for vanilla hashcash user needs to know only nonce as a password | 13:32 |
| katu | (nonce and perhaps some iv) | 13:32 |
| gmaxwell | katu: what you're asking for cannot be done without undermining the utility of the slow kdf. | 13:33 |
| tromp | so you would limit yuourself to shorter cycles, not length 42 but maybe length 6 | 13:33 |
| gmaxwell | (as then an attacker can guess and check at high speed) | 13:33 |
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| gmaxwell | tromp: are you aware of pieter's self-descriptive hardening scheme? | 13:33 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: link? | 13:34 |
| tromp | length 6 gives you 6*32 bits or a little more entropy | 13:34 |
| tromp | no, i am not, gmaxwell | 13:34 |
| katu | gmaxwell: thats why there a is random iv with it as well. take simple hashcash mnemonic. you generate 64bit nonce, and pass generator additionaly generates 32bit PoW. | 13:34 |
| katu | so you 96bit password as a result, and bruteforcing it involves solving the 64bit nonce too. but you're right, i'm still unsure if this brings any benefit at all. | 13:35 |
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| katu | gmaxwell: what about this: user enters a passphrase, which is used as iv to provide hashcash proof for. initial passgen solves the hashcash. user has to remember his passphrase and the hashcash solution nonce. | 13:38 |
| katu | the point is to use *really* slow kdf, where user provides easy, shortcut solution for the server. | 13:39 |
| sipa | tromp: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102349.0 | 13:39 |
| gmaxwell | katu: if the user can _remember_ a cryptographic nonce there is little need to have a streghtened passphrase. | 13:39 |
| katu | gmaxwell: that nonce is quite short, and given user behavior this strikes me beneficial (users pick often weak passphrases, but the PoW nonce prevents it from being easily bruteforced) | 13:40 |
| katu | also, user is allowed to forget this nonce, he'll just have to solve the PoW again. no big deal. the whole point is to offload difficult kdf on the server side. | 13:42 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Oct 28 00:00:09 2015 | ||
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