2015-10-31.log

--- Log opened Sat Oct 31 00:00:12 2015
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kanzure"My main development project these days is Aboriginal Linux, which aims to replace cross compiling with native compiling under an emulator (qemu)." (rob landley stuff)07:06
kanzurehttp://landley.net/aboriginal/07:07
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ggreerwhat's the benefit of that?09:36
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maakuand here I got excited that aboriginal linux might be some new translation or localization technology09:57
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fluffyponymaaku: likewise10:31
fluffyponyI thought it was the Australian version of Ubuntu10:32
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bliljerk101https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1233237.0 - just going to leave this here. would appreciate any responses on the forum. may not be around much today to respond over IRC12:17
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katubliljerk101: looks a lot like Torpath: the real life12:19
bliljerk101katu is "Torpath: the real life" a technology? if so, can you link me to something (google posed no distinguishable results). if not, are you saying the smart contract chain looks like a torpath? because i thought so, too12:21
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katujust look at the torpath paper. note that there are subtle differences.12:23
katufor example, in torpath, the route is determined via NUMS, to avoid various framing attacks. not by the sender (ie your approach is similiar to that of tor).12:23
katuyou might want to consider NUMS, because the sender might be a plant in sting operation. paradoxically the privacy you provided between hops, it obscures sender.12:24
katuprotecting the FBI agent from being discovered as getting involved in willing entrapment12:25
bliljerk101it shouldn't matter if the sender is under cover as he/she would not know the recipient's real destination. maybe i should clarify how to do this12:30
bliljerk101i will read torpath paper. i don't think i'll be able to today12:30
katubliljerk101: the point of such a sting would be to bust selected relays.12:30
katuyour routiing solves problems regarding scamming, but introduces other vectors of attack with different incentives12:32
katugenerally in the "market competition" category, where the loss of bonds are treated as investment to destroy competition12:32
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katubliljerk101: btw, something closest to the system you devised already exists in the real life, even with bonds and all12:35
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katugoogle up krebs ranting about money and reshipping mules for russian online fraud gangs :)12:36
bliljerk101katu the recipient and sender could both create routes which would eliminate this i think.12:36
katubliljerk101: the select-a-route-and-bust-them? i'm skeptical. generally sender and recipient would be indeed same adversary.12:37
katubliljerk101: my reasoning is that, if I were LEA, and such network would present itself as an open mule market (where anyone can hire mules)12:38
katui'd aim to destroy that market first12:38
katuthey key difference is that feds can't do this with Tor, because of onion encryption. but you can't onion encrypt packages. you send it to someone, who is willing to reship it, and you bust em when they're about to do so.12:40
bliljerk101i have to think about all of this at another time. i'm going to save your suggestions as well and review tomorrow or next day. i'm running out of time today, but your feedback is appreciated. if you have anything else to add, i'd appreciate if you could post on forum and i'll definitely respond.12:41
katubliljerk101: someone else will i'm sure :) generally i'd welcome if you'd elaborate on practical setup how this would be implemented12:42
katuie how such a mule market would operate in realistic terms12:42
katu(until then, my remarks are largely speculative)12:42
gmaxwellkatu: it's usually preferable to use an attack model other than 'the feds',  for one, it's a needlessly weak attack model since they may need to appear to abide by the rule of law while a worst case attacker would not; it's also a needlessly politicized attack model, because many people believe the actions of law enforcement are often virtuious and that they do usually abide by the law. Alternati12:48
gmaxwellvely, specifying a state attacker can also be needlessly over powered: if your goverment is the only party that can attack you, for many people thats good enough (and hard to stop, regardless).  I usually invoke hypothetical ninjas as the attacker, or otherwise, failing that a foreign state power.12:48
katugmaxwell: good point12:48
gmaxwellFinally, for those who might read a conversaion and not really understand how hypothetical thinking works, it makes it sound like people here are scheming in varrious ways.. and thats not the case... can make some people uncomfortable.12:49
gmaxwell:)12:49
katulet's rephrase this in terms of market competition hiring ninjas to bust relays with valuable contraband :)12:49
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gmaxwellyea in any case, the onion encryiton in tor protects the payload, not routing. and if the relays log, then they can break the security.12:51
katuon that note, the network might also want to avoid to be implicitly connected with anything (realistically) questionable. for example relays would actually check the packages. in that case it would turn into sort of sneakernet, like grey markets in oppressive state regimes.12:51
gmaxwellAs far as disrupting this, all it takes is one idiot shipping something forbidden and it creates criminal charges against the participants; pretty vulnerable to byzantine attack.12:51
katuwhere people sought to protect themselves from immoral state actors12:51
gmaxwellthe zero hop version if this is fine, but only works in a strong semi-honest enviroment.. e.g. you send someone the packing label, and they print it without storing it and never look at it.12:52
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waxwingtamper resistant seals and a legitimate use for the network might be enough deniability for a node/peer?13:01
katuwaxwing: hmm, interesting. regular reshipping services indeed use similiar argument when abused for online fraud.13:03
katubut it's telling most of them started requiring KYC forms after few incidents, so i presume this argument does not hold - they get slapped "if you claim you're legit, make sure your previous hop is accountable as well"13:04
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waxwingyeah i can't see it. although it's a fun idea. i heard it discussed before as 'bitdrop'.13:06
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