2015-11-03.log

--- Log opened Tue Nov 03 00:00:14 2015
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kanzure"Micropayments for decentralized currencies" (more lottery stuff) http://initc3.org/files/micropay2.pdf12:00
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bramcQuiet in here15:35
phantomcircuitbramc, HELLO15:36
bramcHello Mr. Circuit15:36
bramcDoes anybody have an opinion about the reasonableness of requiring the amount of reserved memory for the utxo commitment data structure to be set up front?15:40
bramcAlso of interest: Is the set of function being add() remove() is_included() and get_root() appropriate? Is it a good idea for it to allow arbitrary size strings to be included in the set by hashing them first?15:41
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bramcFor the patricia tree structure, is it okay to simply pass up things unchanged when there are no alternatives? For example, if there are only two things stored and they share the same longish prefix, the root will still be the hash of them together?15:43
bramcIt seems completely appropriate for it to be a set and not a dictionary15:45
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phantomcircuitbramc, i dont see why you'd want to support arbitrary size strings, the caller should have already calculated a hash15:59
bramcphantomcircuit, I could also make it be fixed at hash-size strings. That's never less efficient, just requires the caller do the hashing, which it may have done already.16:00
phantomcircuitbramc, one of the advantages of using a patricia treat is compact proof of exclusion, if you're not merging the prefixes that probably doesn't work16:00
bramchmm, I'll have to think about that. I think the proofs of exclusion are short anyway16:02
bramcYeah, they're short anyway: As long as everything is in order, you just need to trace down to two consecutive things for a proof of exclusion16:03
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bramcSo the longest a proof of exclusion could be is twice the depth, for something which is between the high point of the low branch and the low point of the high branch16:08
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phantomcircuitbramc, hmm yeah that's true16:20
phantomcircuitnot optimally compact but still compact enough for basically any applicaiton16:20
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bitcoin-wizards2adam3us1: Hi, are you adam back?17:27
dEBRUYNE__He is17:28
bitcoin-wizards2thanks dEBRUYNE__17:28
bitcoin-wizards2is he available?17:28
bitcoin-wizards2we agreed to speak a while back17:28
dEBRUYNE__Not sure, better to ask him yourself17:28
bitcoin-wizards2how do you PM here?17:29
bitcoin-wizards2nevermind, i think i figured it out.17:29
bitcoin-wizards2on a more general note17:30
bitcoin-wizards2is everyone here aware of Brian Armstrong's latest message? Brian is Coinbase CEO.17:31
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bitcoin-wizards2Two important links: 1) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3rejl9/coinbase_ceo_brian_armstrong_bip_101_is_the_best/, 2) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3rfapk/new_post_by_mike_hearn_appears_to_have_been/17:35
bitcoin-wizards2Specifically, note his endorsement of XT despite the obvious lack of ecosystem support of XT and lack of traction.17:35
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kanzurethat shouldn't be surprising considering his previous statements. but why is that -wizards material?17:37
bitcoin-wizards2It seems like a very serious situation, maybe the most explicit statement made by Brian thus far.17:38
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bitcoin-wizards2I'm curious what is going on behind the scenes, and if Core has a response. What is Core doing to retain Brian's support? Brian has said he is fine with Core.17:39
bitcoin-wizards2As long as it does something.17:39
katubitcoin-wizards2: please try to contain XT shitfest to #bitcoin :)17:46
katuits technically uninteresting, just pure politics17:46
bitcoin-wizards2Okay, but isn't this important?17:47
bitcoin-wizards2Why is everyone behaving so non-chalant?17:47
katumost tech folks practice strict hands off approach17:47
katuand political decisions are very closely hands on :)17:48
bitcoin-wizards2This could lead to Civil War and the end of Bitcoin, practically.17:48
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bitcoin-wizards2I understand, but that ^.17:48
katubitcoin-wizards2: so?17:48
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katuif bitcoin fails because of politics so be it17:48
bitcoin-wizards2???17:48
katuwe believe it will still prevail based on merit alone17:48
katubitcoin-wizards2: the whole idea of PoW based consensus17:49
bitcoin-wizards2Well unfortunately the real world involves politics17:49
katumore terahashes decide17:49
katunot people.17:49
katunot politicians.17:49
belcherif bitcoin can be changed because a charismatic leader lobbied some mining pools and wrote some blogposts then its in trouble17:49
bitcoin-wizards2Code is important, but politics is just as important in the real world.17:49
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Nickyo9its not romur! bitcoin going to hit 1500$ due to this news!!! coindesk lie to us! http://www.nasdaqtoday.com/Overstock-has-confirmed-that-Nasdaq-is-using-blockchain17:49
katubitcoin-wizards2: then try to come up with technical solutions how to avoid politics17:49
katuwe all know politics is just smoke and mirrors and hate it for that reason17:50
katuwe'd better have no politics17:50
bitcoin-wizards2The solution is for Brian to be genuinely engaged by Core.17:50
katuamoral, not moral/immoral.17:50
belcherim sure technical folk will enter the discussion if theres any danger of the consensus forking, luckily we're very far away from that17:50
bitcoin-wizards2I don't understand why Brian would say what he said about XT.17:50
bitcoin-wizards2Charlie Lee didn't expect this either, and he works for Coinbase.17:50
bitcoin-wizards2mods can you ban Nickyo917:51
katubitcoin-wizards2: political bickering17:51
katuwhy do you even care?17:51
bitcoin-wizards2Nickyo9:  just spammed a virus link17:51
katuare you afraid on effect on market?17:51
katuif so, this is not markets channel17:51
bitcoin-wizards2katu I'm afraid because I care deeply about bitcoin for many reasons17:51
katufor what we care, bitcoin price could drop to two cents :)17:51
katubitcoin-wizards2: most people care only because of their money17:51
bitcoin-wizards2If your opinion represents Core's opinion, then I'm not surprised Brian is going to XT17:52
katui shush you off because i suspect you of the same. if not, state your case :)17:52
bitcoin-wizards2And maybe everyone else should go to XT.17:52
bitcoin-wizards2Maybe I've been wrong about Core this whole time17:52
belcherthis channel is logged and this off-topic talk can be very irritating when searching those logs, so take this somewhere else17:52
bitcoin-wizards2If you guys really are this brain dead to say such things (for what we care price could go to 2 cents)17:52
bitcoin-wizards2Okay, thanks for the help. Later.17:53
amillerbitcoin-wizards2, katu, this whole thing is off topic, elsewhere please?17:53
amillerk17:53
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katubelcher: to turn this incident into something productive, are there some ideas out there to make pooled mining difficult/infeasible?18:01
katui've poured through kanzure's stash, but found only paper or two on proofs of serially done computation18:01
belcheridk sorry18:01
adlaikatu: have you seen amiller's paper?18:03
adlaihttp://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable_full.pdf, discussion at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309073.0;all18:04
amillerthere's also blogposts by selfish mining cornell folkks http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/18/how-to-disincentivize-large-bitcoin-mining-pools/18:05
katuadlai: yeah, forgot about pinnochio18:05
katubut serial PoWs struck me as more practical, because those are still easier to verify18:06
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amillerkatu, like sequentially hard proofs of work?18:14
amillerkatu, there's this http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~mohammad/files/papers/11%20TimeLock.pdf18:15
kanzure"the real world"18:16
kanzure"i am outraged that you don't parrot my narrative"18:16
kanzurepolitics was never a good idea18:17
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@gwillenkb Nickyo918:33
-!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@31.6.14.89] by gwillen18:33
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@gwillenoops.18:33
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gmaxwellgwillen: hope you didn't follow that link.18:39
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katuamiller: thanks. yeah, i've seen similiar idea somewhere with pebble graphs, though can't recall which paper was that.18:46
katuie while such pow is difficult in theory, in practice one can have embarassingly parallel problem which cant be run in parallel because of bandwidth constraints.18:46
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katuamiller: anything where the (very relevant) point on dealing with variance (ie people hate it and thus put up with pools) is discussed?18:48
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@gwillengmaxwell: no, the 'oops' was for saying "kb" instead of doing "/kb"18:51
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IDoTradesbitcoin going to hit 1500$ due to this news!!! coindesk lie to us! http://www.nasdaqtoday.com/Overstock-has-confirmed-that-Nasdaq-is-using-blockchain18:56
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-!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@*31.6.55*] by gwillen18:57
@gwillenthat's a malware link, don't click it18:57
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-!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-bb *!*@31.6.14.89 *!*@*31.6.55*] by gwillen18:59
@gwillenfor the record, 31.6.0-63 all appears to be dynamic IPs from the same ISP.19:00
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archobserverjust what bitcoin needs ... to fail due to malware19:29
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