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| Taek | bramc: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_documentation | 06:15 |
|---|---|---|
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| Taek | https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#p2p-network | 06:15 |
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| nsh | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Fhg9CpbOg | 12:08 |
| yoleaux | Bitcoin's Incentive Structure - YouTube | 12:08 |
| nsh | (4 days ago, Aviv Zohar) | 12:08 |
| nsh | 'Bitcoin's departure from traditional banking and money transmitting models make it one of the most disruptive and daring economic experiments of our time. Behind the scenes, the system which offers payments to nodes that support the currency, is ruled by the resulting incentives. I will overview the interaction between the protocol and different aspects of its underlying incentive scheme. In partic | 12:09 |
| nsh | ular, I will present areas where improvements are needed, and where AGT can (hopefully) help.' | 12:09 |
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| gmaxwell | So-- people give up searching for the forced private key revealing trick? (aj found it with some non-trivial help). | 12:51 |
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| gmaxwell | sipa: ^ | 12:53 |
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| aj | gmaxwell: aww, come on, i came up with a vastly worse way with no help too! | 13:09 |
| gmaxwell | oh yes! that too. | 13:09 |
| waxwing | crypto-tease | 13:10 |
| kanzure | i asked andytoshi the same question over dinner yesterday and i think his reply was "what's irc?" | 13:10 |
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| gmaxwell | waxwing: well I wanted other people to try, with one part hope of finding a better one. | 13:23 |
| waxwing | i jest :) | 13:23 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: No solutions? | 13:23 |
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| phantomcircuit | aj, lold | 15:27 |
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| nsh | gmaxwell, can you restate the problem? | 15:46 |
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| nsh | something like, using current bitcoin script rules, can you create a system that reveals a hash-preimage atomically with spending a refund of a lightning channel payment sequence payment | 15:47 |
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| nsh | ah, it's still in my scrollback | 15:48 |
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| rusty | nsh: did he give the answer yet? I freely admit to giving up! | 15:54 |
| nsh | not revealed yet | 15:54 |
| nsh | but i'd like to apprehend the framing of the problem before hopelessly and instantly conceding | 15:55 |
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| kanzure | win 5 | 15:59 |
| kanzure | dbflakjfoiqeq | 15:59 |
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| nsh | privkey is leaked through committing to the nonce of the transaction somehow - variation of anduck's/tonych's proposals, but i don't understand the`doctor HTLC or lightning channel stuff in general | 16:00 |
| nsh | or making the nonce derived from the privkey | 16:01 |
| amiller_ | yeah but how do you enforce anything about the nonce | 16:01 |
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| sipa | nsh: I have an ECDSA private key a with associated public key A. Can you construct a scriptPubKey (given A) that I can spend, but only by revealing a. | 16:10 |
| sipa | (Is my interpretation of the problem, and I don't know the solution, so mayne I missed something in the way the question was formulated) | 16:11 |
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| amiller_ | maybe you can do something with the sighash flags, where you get a signature on an "empty" transaction, and then you provide the actual money payload with a new input, that you construct after seeing the first signature, and the script basically says "SIG has to be valid under this public key, and it has to be different than SIG' which i saw previously" | 16:11 |
| sipa | amiller_: signing the hash 1 is possible, but the signer chooses the flags | 16:12 |
| amiller_ | oh | 16:12 |
| amiller_ | well, maybe you can just require the first signature to have the right flag before constructing the second scriptPubkey input with the actual money | 16:14 |
| sipa | the substr opcode was disabled | 16:14 |
| sipa | otherwise i could just require a signature whose r value was a fixed constant with known nonce | 16:14 |
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| andytoshi | i think i see how to do the signature thing | 17:58 |
| andytoshi | pretty nasty | 17:58 |
| andytoshi | oh, no, my idea reveals the keys. i'll shut up :) | 18:00 |
| gmaxwell | the goal is to reveal the key! | 18:01 |
| gmaxwell | what did you think the goal was?! | 18:02 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: i guess he means his trick would reveal the key before spending? | 18:02 |
| andytoshi | yes, that's what i mean sipa :P | 18:03 |
| andytoshi | oh, wait, before even spending once? | 18:03 |
| sipa | andytoshi: eh, perhaps you better explain what you think the goal was, and how you failed it | 18:04 |
| andytoshi | sipa: i had thought the goal was to create a sig such that if you produce two of them with the same key, the key is revealed. but not if you only produce one. | 18:05 |
| andytoshi | but now i see that the goal is weaker than that | 18:05 |
| andytoshi | it's ok that if a single bitcoin signature is published, the key is exposed | 18:05 |
| andytoshi | just that it should be possible to publish an out-of-band signature with same key, and that does not expose anything | 18:05 |
| gmaxwell | yea, the goal is that at the end of the protocol, the final signature means the other party learns the private key. | 18:06 |
| gmaxwell | You can have setup before that. | 18:06 |
| gmaxwell | So, e.g. a single show signature would work; but it doesn't need to be one. | 18:06 |
| andytoshi | ok, my thing is still broken because it reveals the key to everyone (so miners can steal). it might be salvagable tho | 18:07 |
| gmaxwell | it's okay if it reveals it to everyone. | 18:07 |
| gmaxwell | the last step can do normal key && leaked key (via bitcoin script.) | 18:07 |
| andytoshi | ok, that's a good point | 18:07 |
| andytoshi | then if my thing works at all (i'm 80% sure..) it's a win :P | 18:07 |
| andytoshi | but how is that different than a hash preimage? | 18:08 |
| gmaxwell | because the other party generates a new ephemeral pubkey P, and you pay to P+{pubkey whos discrete log you're gonna leak}. | 18:08 |
| gmaxwell | and the two transactions are unlikable by the public (which doesn't know P) | 18:09 |
| andytoshi | oh, right! | 18:09 |
| andytoshi | sorry, i'm very tired :) | 18:09 |
| gmaxwell | eat. | 18:09 |
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| andytoshi | oh, shit, good call | 18:11 |
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| bramc | Taek, Is there any technical protocol documentation which starts with the per-connection state machine? | 20:02 |
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| tulip | bramc: that's about the extent of it, beyond looking at the source. | 20:10 |
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| bramc | tulip: What *is* the state machine of a connection? There must be one, even if it's implicit and only understood by a priestly few. | 20:10 |
| phantomcircuit | bramc, there aren't docs about it but it's very simple really | 20:11 |
| phantomcircuit | vesion/verack before anything else | 20:11 |
| phantomcircuit | connecting peer sends version | 20:11 |
| bramc | phantomcircuit, Yeah yeah let's just skip all that handshake stuff for now | 20:12 |
| phantomcircuit | then take a look at the getheaders stuff there's a hack there to signal to the other peer that they should request more | 20:12 |
| phantomcircuit | otherwise everything is async | 20:12 |
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| phantomcircuit | currently we only respond to messages in order but well... | 20:12 |
| bramc | When I think about a connection state machine it starts with you always having an idea of what my current longest chain is | 20:13 |
| tulip | basically after the handshake the only thing you need to do is respond to ping messages, and not send anything invalid, everything else is optional as far as connections are concerned. | 20:13 |
| bramc | *sigh* | 20:14 |
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| bramc | Some day I should really write a document about how to design network protocols. | 20:14 |
| tulip | bit late for this one. | 20:15 |
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| tulip | it's simple but lots of things are weird in ways they shouldn't be. the "alert" message type somehow manages to be more complex than all of the other ones combined, even though it is never used and all of the fields in it are irrelevant. | 20:16 |
| bramc | If we're syncing with each other, the logic should fundamentally be that you and I announce to each other what our current greatest work factor chain is. Then whoever has a shorter one asks for stuff from the peer who has a taller one until we're back in sync | 20:17 |
| bramc | The main subtlety should be whether we proactively send whole pieces of data to the peer or wait for them to be requested | 20:17 |
| bramc | That's another thing which I have no idea how Bitcoin currently does it. | 20:18 |
| kanzure | btw, have you been lurking #bitcoin-core-dev | 20:19 |
| bramc | No I have not | 20:19 |
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| tulip | bramc: it works something like that at the moment. nodes can use 'getheaders' commands to build up the tree of block headers and verify the PoW before wasting time downloading the actual binaries. once it has the headers it can download them out of order. | 20:20 |
| bramc | At the back of my mind I have this implicit assumption that everybody is familiar with BitTorrent's original wire protocol state machine and the improved one with the fast extensions and understands the philosophical implications for this for protocol design generally. This is probably a ridiculous assumption... | 20:20 |
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| bramc | tulip, Right, so it's pull-based rather than push-based, at least as far as the blockchain is concerned (mempool is a different subject). That makes sense. How is a new highest block announced? | 20:22 |
| tulip | newly received objects can be announced to peers using the 'inv' message, which contains the hash of the new transaction or block. if the node doesn't have it and is interested, it requests the binary from the peer using 'getdata'. | 20:22 |
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| bramc | Does inv specific whether it's talking about a transaction or block? And if it's talking about a block, does it include work factor? | 20:23 |
| tulip | just the type, hash of the object. there's discussion about pushing the entire header instead for blocks, which isn't a whole lot larger. | 20:24 |
| bramc | Or I should say, work factor and height, and if it includes height is there a way to request the last n block hashes so you don't have to walk the linked list one at a time? | 20:25 |
| tulip | the block header doesn't contain the height unfortunately. | 20:25 |
| bramc | This protocol is... distinctly suboptimal when you're catching up. | 20:26 |
| tulip | the coinbase transaction does however as part of BIP30, it's used as a salt to stop duplicate transaction IDs. you can include a block header and markle path to the coinbase transaction in a few hundred bytes. | 20:26 |
| bramc | I assume peers also have a policy of not announcing that they have anything which they themselves haven't validated, and not announcing orphaned blocks? | 20:26 |
| tulip | announcing invalid objects is a violation of the protocol and causes a disconnection and ban of that peer. | 20:27 |
| bramc | You don't need blocks to contain heights for the peer protocol to report them | 20:27 |
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| tulip | it's not that inefficient now for catching up with the chain, it used to be. | 20:28 |
| bramc | An object can be valid but not validated, for example I can be in the process of downloading a block from a peer but I haven't finished validating it yet because I don't have all of the blocks below it yet. For me to announce that I have that object to my own peers would be very bad behavior. | 20:28 |
| bramc | Well you're stuck not being able to pipeline the block headers with this protocol. That shouldn't be *too* bad as long as you can pipeline the actual transactions though. How does it handle those? Are the intermediary positions in the hash tree treated as separate objects? | 20:30 |
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| tulip | the merkle tree isn't stored in the block format, it's literally just a concatenation of [block header] [num of transactions] [transaction binary]. the node rebuilds it as part of the validation. | 20:31 |
| bramc | So the transaction binary has to be transferred as a complete blob before it can be validated? | 20:32 |
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| tulip | yes. there's an alternate protocol which in a round about way lets you build the merkle tree from transactions you've already seen on the network, the remote peer pre-emptively sending you any transaction binaries it knows you have missed. | 20:33 |
| bramc | Also, dumb question: If I restart my node after it's been asleep for a while, what does it do with everything in its mempool? Presumably most of what's in there is now garbage, does it throw it away, waste a bunch of bandwidth trying to send it around immediately, or something else? | 20:35 |
| tulip | the memory pool is not retained in any capacity. | 20:35 |
| bramc | That's an unfortunate but pragmatic policy | 20:35 |
| tulip | wait, asleep. | 20:35 |
| tulip | if the process is just paused, the transactions in the mempool will probably have been confirmed in newly incoming blocks, once they've been confirmed they'll be removed. | 20:36 |
| bramc | By 'asleep' I mean 'paused for long enough that the old connections all time out and new ones have to be formed' | 20:37 |
| tulip | it'll be retained in that case. | 20:37 |
| bramc | Presumably whenever you form a new connection, even if it's with a peer you had a connection to before, you have to rework your whole connection state | 20:37 |
| tulip | that'll just be the new headers though. | 20:38 |
| tulip | nodes that have been restarted are significantly slower than ones that have kept running for a while, most of the reason the network hasn't collapsed already is that Bitcoin Core uses caching of transaction validity. with the caching turned down things really start to get slow. | 20:39 |
| bramc | By the way, in the blockchain format, does it form the merkle root by hashing the hashes of transactions, or is it really and truly the hash of the complete blob? | 20:40 |
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| bramc | I'm not sure what you mean by 'caching of transaction validity' | 20:40 |
| tulip | say we see an unconfirmed transaction, we can cache the ECDSA signature verification, if we see it in a block later we can skip that slow business entirely. this is slightly problematic because the network speed relies on miners not packing blocks with unknown transactions. | 20:42 |
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| bramc | Right signature validations should of course be cached | 20:45 |
| tulip | it's not an ideal solution though, it opens you up to attacks where certain nodes can have a cache eviction attack performed against them to intentionally slow their accepting of new blocks. | 20:48 |
| bramc | Maybe I should explain how I'd go about designing Bitcoin peer protocol from scratch, because we're speaking somewhat different languages here. When I design a protocol the first question is 'what is the state which peers present to each other, and how should peers respond appropriately to achieve eventual consistency?' Most network protocols are centered around 'what does the current code do in response to particular me | 20:48 |
| bramc | ssages?' with the state being implicit and somewhat busted | 20:48 |
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| bramc | What sort of cache eviction attack are you thinking of? | 20:49 |
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| tulip | say my node only stores 50MB of validated signatures in its cache. you flood me with 51MB of useless transactions and cause relevant ones to be evicted, when a new block comes around I've no useful pre-validation remaining and have to do all of the work again. | 20:50 |
| bramc | Define 'useless transactions'. There's a limit of the number of transactions you can make, based on the number of utxos you have | 20:52 |
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| tulip | that's not a meaningful limit to the number of them, there's 32642787 unspent outputs. you can also do tricks with miner participation, like making reasonable transactions and then re-signing them for their block contents causing the cache to be useless. | 20:54 |
| bramc | To my mind there are two different and tangentially related things which connections do: transmit blocks and transmit uncommitted transactions | 20:55 |
| tulip | one thing to remember is that when the p2p network was designed, there were more purposes than that. only 2 of the commands dealt with transactions and blocks. | 20:55 |
| bramc | You can keep that under control by only allowing a single replacement of each input per block | 20:56 |
| tulip | how do you mean? | 20:57 |
| bramc | I have a working idea in my mind of a set of policies which do a decent job of deciding what in the mempool to forward, but it only works with rbf and I have little motivation to figure out how to hack things in not the right way. | 20:57 |
| tulip | (other commands included 'review', 'product', and 'table', 'submitorder') | 20:58 |
| bramc | If you send me a transaction which validates, then you send me another transaction for the same utxo, I ignore it until a block has passed, without even trying to validate. | 20:58 |
| bramc | Right, there's some weird stuff about bitcoin peer protocol having plans for a marketplace, all of which has been abandoned. | 20:59 |
| bramc | It's the borscht belt. | 20:59 |
| tulip | and a poker game. | 20:59 |
| tulip | I haven't followed RBF concepts so I can't really comment on that in comparison to any other. | 21:01 |
| bramc | There are two situations to take seriously: (a) You join with nothing and are downloading since genesis, and (b) there are two different long chains which are neck and neck trying to outrace each other and swapping who's in first | 21:01 |
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| tulip | if the latter is happening you've got other troubles. | 21:02 |
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| bramc | With regards to rbf and all that, the high level abstract point is that transactions go into three buckets: dead, tbd, and accepted. Which bucket they go in is based on their fees, what you already had when you received them, what else is in your mempool, and of course whether they passed validation. Sometimes after a block passes you move stuff from tbd to accepted. What accepted means is that you proactively push it on | 21:05 |
| bramc | all your peers. The only way a transaction can get out of dead is if the block height it became dead in gets rewound. | 21:05 |
| bramc | Yes case (b) sucks big donkey nuts. All the more reason why peers should try to handle it rather than spontaneously melting. | 21:06 |
| bramc | Note also that (a) and (b) can happen at the same time. | 21:06 |
| tulip | I don't think the software can handle (b), long reorganisations cause the nodes to catch fire essentially. | 21:09 |
| tulip | all of your peers drop you due to the pings timing out, for example. | 21:10 |
| bramc | For the purposes of (b) it's very important that peers announce what their current highest block is and be able to answer questions about its linear history as a whole | 21:11 |
| bramc | Yes catching on fire in the event of a long reorg is what I'd expect in the case of a hacked together protocol. It isn't inherent to the blockchain though. | 21:12 |
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| tulip | the problems with the p2p protocol are a bit wider than this discussion though. the transaction flooding system is quite leaky, there's an incentive for companies to attempt to connect massively to every peer they can in order to gain timing information. what that means ultimately is that huge portion of the capacity is wasted. | 21:14 |
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| bramc | The details of exactly how the current protocol catches on fire in that situation is something I'd only want to know out of morbid rather than academic curiosity | 21:15 |
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| bramc | Well, good behavior is to either (a) spam every peer you're connected to with every transaction you accept (which like I said before isn't all of them immediately, especially with real fees and rbf) (b) spam all your peers with just the hashes of transactions you've accepted and let them request them, (c) immediately spam a subset of your peers with either of those two and wait a bit to see if you get equivalent notifica | 21:17 |
| bramc | tions from other peers before spamming the rest | 21:17 |
| bramc | https://imgflip.com/i/ur6ga | 21:19 |
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| bramc | Fundamentally when two peers connect to each other for each item in the mempool something will have to be sent between them for them to both know they've gotten it. The only short circuit is for the transaction to already be in an accepted block. Unless you have weak blocks. Weak blocks are a good idea. | 21:20 |
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| tulip | we do (b) today basically. | 21:23 |
| tulip | (c) is problematic because it assumes on some level that your peers are sane. | 21:24 |
| bramc | That is a pragmatic default. I wouldn't advocate for anything else. | 21:24 |
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| gmaxwell | No more entries in the key disclosing signature contest? | 21:58 |
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| gmaxwell | andytoshi came up with the same approach aj came up with. | 22:14 |
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| gmaxwell | (which I think also works, but is less efficient than mine.) | 22:14 |
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| rusty | gmaxwell: OK, spill... | 22:23 |
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| gmaxwell | okay lets pretend then that someone started doing it and the scriptpubkeys showed up on the network. | 22:27 |
| gmaxwell | The scriptPubkey that forces you to reveal a private key is OP_SIZE 57 OP_LESSTHANOREQUAL OP_VERIFY <P> OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY | 22:28 |
| gmaxwell | (57 could be modified slightly, as there is a signing time, security tradeoff.) | 22:29 |
| * gmaxwell stands back while all the people say "WTF?" | 22:29 | |
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| bramc | gmaxwell, Sadly I can't read Bitcoin script. Is the challenge to make a scriptsubkey which can only be opened by revealing the private key to a specific public key which is presented as a challenge? | 22:34 |
| gmaxwell | yes | 22:35 |
| gmaxwell | in the existing Bitcoin network today; it's not hard to do with minor soft-fork additions. | 22:35 |
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| petertodd | gmaxwell: oh, you're just forcing me to make a signature that allows some math to be used to recover the private key, probably using the sighash_single bug | 22:38 |
| rusty | OK, so they have to have provided an unusually small signature. With DER encoding + sig type, that means the <= 57 bytes check here implies length of S + length of R <= 50 bytes? | 22:38 |
| gmaxwell | petertodd: nope. :) | 22:38 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: yes. | 22:38 |
| gmaxwell | I'll give the rest away: There exists a point with known discrete log which begins with 90 bits of zeros. | 22:39 |
| gmaxwell | For reasons unknown to us when G was selected for secp256k1 they took a 166 bit number of unknown origin coerced it to a point and doubled it. | 22:40 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: ok, so the first part of my guess was right :P | 22:40 |
| gmaxwell | So that point has a discrete log of 1/2 F(n). | 22:40 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: "For reasons unknown to us" <- that sounds sketchy | 22:41 |
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| gmaxwell | petertodd: nah, not really-- it's pretty easy to prove that the selection of the generator is irrelevant. Thats why no specs bother to disclose how they came up with them. (I had to harass DJB to spec it for his curves.) | 22:42 |
| gmaxwell | For lots of curves they're sha1s of random stuff or ascii text or other random stuff. | 22:42 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: good; irrelevant except for crazy tricks like this? | 22:42 |
| gmaxwell | Well irrelevent for "elliptic curve security" which doesn't mean entirely irrelevant. | 22:43 |
| rusty | gmaxwell: so, the only other (known) way to get a sig that small is brute force? | 22:44 |
| gmaxwell | (if you have a magic generator Q that you can solve discrete logs with respect to it, solve the discrete log of G with respect to it.. Now any disrectly log problem with respect to G reduces to one with respect to Q just by multiplying the point in question by the inverse of the DL of G wrt Q.) | 22:44 |
| gmaxwell | rusty: Yes. | 22:44 |
| gmaxwell | The 90 bit reduction is a bit weak because you could grid R then grind S, so what my script actually requires is smaller than you'd get with that special R. | 22:45 |
| gmaxwell | You're required to grind S some too. | 22:45 |
| bramc | For a given modulus aren't all generators isomorphic, and you pick one which allows an efficient implementation? | 22:46 |
| gmaxwell | bramc: assuming that there are no subgroups (there aren't for secp256k1); for EC the choice of the generator doesn't really have performance implementations, not like it does for Zp discrete-log. | 22:48 |
| rusty | Damn, gtg. Will digest on ride home... | 22:49 |
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| bramc | Ah, I was thinking of GF(2^n) where they're all exactly the same and it's all about which one has the most efficient implementation | 22:49 |
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| bramc | Back on the subject of a long back and forth fork: Only a small amount of miner self-interestedness could easily result in two competing forks between miners which could take quite a while sort itself out. Eventually it inevitably would, but oh what a mess. | 23:17 |
| bramc | One of those 'wouldn't this be fun' scenarios which works on paper. Miners could even start adding bribes to their own losing chain to pull in other miners, resulting in a Democrats vs Republicans sort of scenario | 23:21 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 23:32 | |
| -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Thu Oct 29 17:53:34 2015] | 23:32 | |
| [Users #bitcoin-wizards] | 23:32 | |
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| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 272 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 271 normal] | 23:32 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 23:32 | |
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| bramc | A netsplit. I feel like it's 1995. | 23:35 |
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| Taek42 | lol @ the number of users spiking while everyone gets shifted to their alt handles | 23:38 |
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| bramc | A majority of mining power could successfully conspire to reliably win forks. A significant minority could make it worth their own while to mine them. | 23:38 |
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| Taek42 | I've been thinking about a potential schelling point where the biggest miners only forward blocks they find to the other biggest miners and nobody else | 23:39 |
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| Taek42 | as long as blocks are getting to a majority of the hashpower, the minority will experience higher orphan rates | 23:40 |
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| gmaxwell | Taek42: really you would prefer only about 33% of the hashpower gets your blocks quickly. | 23:40 |
| gmaxwell | (same reason as the selfish mining results) | 23:40 |
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| bramc | gmaxwell, What's the reasoning behind 1/3 getting blocks quickly? | 23:46 |
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| Taek42 | bramc: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.0243v5.pdf | 23:46 |
| bramc | Thanks I'll read through that later | 23:47 |
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| Taek42 | when 33% of the hashpower is 1 block ahead, the remaining 66% needs to mine 2 blocks to win the fork-race | 23:48 |
| Taek42 | each side of the fork has a 50% chance of winning | 23:48 |
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| bramc | Mining being heavily centralized really doesn't help | 23:49 |
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| gmaxwell | bramc: no shit. | 23:49 |
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| gmaxwell | Unfortunately, bitcoin users have been in excuse mode for so long, getting traction about improving that is not easy. | 23:49 |
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| bramc | gmaxwell, I'm not sure what can be done to improve it. Other than explaining to people that joining mining pools just because isn't such a hot idea I mean. | 23:50 |
| bramc | Not that mining decentralization actually fixes the problem, but at least it helps. | 23:50 |
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| gmaxwell | Oh there are lots of things that can be done both technical and socially. E.g. a lot would be improved to just fix the race misunderstanding; though thats harder when propagation effects make it somewhat true. | 23:52 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Nov 26 00:00:23 2015 | ||
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