| --- Log opened Fri Nov 27 00:00:36 2015 | ||
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| -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o phantomcircuit] by ChanServ | 08:52 | |
| -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+q *!*ielo@*] by phantomcircuit | 08:52 | |
| @phantomcircuit | :P | 08:52 |
|---|---|---|
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| instagibbs | can confirm, picture says verified user | 08:54 |
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| @phantomcircuit | instagibbs, damned trolls ;) | 08:57 |
| kanzure | i think amiller has put in a good word for that person but i'm still confused why/how they know each other | 08:58 |
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| Taek | It would be interesting to start with a bytecode like moxie and then develop the 'ideal' set of consensus rules | 09:43 |
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| Taek | I'm sort of inspired by lisp, which was an early attempt to build the 'ideal' programming language | 09:43 |
| Taek | and more or less disregarded real-world limitations | 09:44 |
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| adlai | lisp was built around a very specific purpose, which was to axiomatize programming notation. it wasn't even supposed to be implemented... | 09:46 |
| Taek | adlai: I wouldn't have the intention of implementing the 'perfect blockchain' either | 09:47 |
| Taek | but it produce interesting results or useful things that could be applied to Bitcoin | 09:48 |
| Taek | *it may produce | 09:48 |
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| adlai | well, some projects are going in that direction, and you can study them to steal back ideas :P | 09:53 |
| adlai | to me it seems that between prediction markets and hardforks Bitcoin is about as flexible as human endeavor can get | 09:54 |
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| kanzure | "Amplifying side channels through performance degradation" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1141.pdf | 16:03 |
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| instagibbs | "We show how to use the performance-degradation attack to amplify a side-channel enough to enable exploiting the new information leak. Using the combined attack, an adversary can break a private key of the secp256k1 curve, used in the Bitcoin protocol, after observing only 6 signatures." | 16:12 |
| instagibbs | OpenSSL, fwiw | 16:12 |
| gwillen | o_O wow that's really not so great | 16:13 |
| jcorgan | it's using openssl, so soon to be taken care of | 16:15 |
| sipa | jcorgan: signing has been not-OpenSSL since 0.10 | 16:15 |
| katu | kanzure: cache stomping is relevant to all wNAF (and other precomputed ladders) implementations | 16:15 |
| jcorgan | sipa: oh, nice | 16:16 |
| katu | i suspect even even libsecp256k1 has a huge cache footprint? :) | 16:16 |
| instagibbs | its already taken care of, yeah | 16:16 |
| instagibbs | perhaps | 16:16 |
| sipa | katu: no wNAF used in signing, but yes, big cache | 16:17 |
| instagibbs | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_point_multiplication#w-ary_non-adjacent_form_.28wNAF.29_method | 16:17 |
| instagibbs | and not Western National Angus Futurity | 16:17 |
| sipa | katu: but our signing code's memory access patterns are 100% deterministic, and independent of the private key | 16:18 |
| katu | sipa: indeed making compromising optimizations there would not make much sense anyway | 16:19 |
| katu | since signing is far from the bottleneck in usual setting; verification is | 16:19 |
| jcorgan | it begs the question of who runs signing operations on machines subject to this kind of side channel | 16:19 |
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| sipa | katu: verification uses huge caches, wNAF, and various variable-time tricks :) | 16:19 |
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| katu | sipa: i'm not too familiar with the code, but isnt the only way to be sure writing the whole signing routine in assembly? | 16:22 |
| katu | to make sure the bits of the scalar are not spilled somewhere for flush/reload | 16:23 |
| sipa | katu: i don't think flush/reload matters here... the code executed and the data accessed is independent of the secret | 16:25 |
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| sipa | even if secret bits would spill | 16:26 |
| katu | sipa: wrt https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/140.pdf | 16:26 |
| katu | sipa: just monitor the different memory lines in montgomery ladder (or similiar double-and-add there) | 16:27 |
| gmaxwell | nope. | 16:27 |
| sipa | katu: we don't use a montgomery ladder specifically for that reason | 16:27 |
| katu | ah | 16:27 |
| katu | neat :) | 16:27 |
| sipa | katu: the code executed, and the memory accessed is always independent of the secret | 16:28 |
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| gmaxwell | The memory accesses are entirely uniform in signing (assuming the compiler does nothing awful; which is something I've hand verified for a particular build-- but isn't promised by C, though it currently appears robust in existing compilers) | 16:28 |
| jcorgan | it's almost like you guys anticipated this and worked yourself silly reimplementing ECDSA properly | 16:29 |
| gmaxwell | (in theory a diabolical optimizing compiler could see through the conditional move structure and turn the accesses into indexing. But no such beast currently exists.) | 16:29 |
| sipa | jcorgan: i guess this is an example where theoretical security people were a step ahead | 16:29 |
| katu | jcorgan: i suspect bitcoin switched to its custom implementation exactly because of the earlier reported attack on openssl impl :) | 16:30 |
| gmaxwell | jcorgan: it's almost as if our source code had comments specifically describing these attacks and Bitcoin Core switched to using ours a year ago. | 16:30 |
| sipa | jcorgan: and the best practice advice had been "make memory accesses uniform" before such attacks became effective enough | 16:30 |
| katu | there are still fun attacks to go around tho, like "listening" to the EM noise from alu | 16:31 |
| katu | (or more likely bits being shuffled on lanes of dram memory bus) | 16:32 |
| gmaxwell | yea, we only have the weakest protections (but none none) against EMI/power sidechannels. TD-Linux was setting up a measurement rig, and got some initial results; but they were contanimated by noise from USB that made it hard to use them.. he should have new results soon. | 16:32 |
| jcorgan | wondered how that went | 16:32 |
| kanzure | katu: or gigahertz radio noise from RAM | 16:32 |
| TD-Linux | yeah new amplifier board built but not tested yet | 16:33 |
| TD-Linux | also connected to a rpi now so I don't move cables around each time I test it | 16:33 |
| sipa | heh, that paper mentions libsecp256k1 and its secp256k1_ecmult function.... but that isn't used for signing | 16:33 |
| gmaxwell | sigh. | 16:33 |
| katu | kanzure: would need some heavy RF equipment than just hobby SDR, but potentially much better bandwith than just low frequency clicks? | 16:34 |
| sipa | it's not technically saying it's vulnerable; it's listing various techniques used | 16:34 |
| katu | sipa: probably made same mistake as me, just poked the code, instead of setting breakpoints | 16:34 |
| sipa | or contacting the authors :p | 16:35 |
| gmaxwell | sipa: good because Yuval knows! We asked him(?) to review our code and he did! (and gave us useful feedback that we used to harden the implementation) | 16:35 |
| sipa | ah! | 16:36 |
| sipa | yes, i remember that; just didn't remember the name | 16:36 |
| gmaxwell | iirc he was the reason we changed from bitslice that was cacheline regular to indexless approach. | 16:36 |
| kanzure | this is why i do my name thing | 16:36 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: hmm, can't remember that; i though that was because of a paper that identified that bitslicing still brings lower indexes earlier available in memory | 16:37 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: but maybe he linked us to that paper | 16:37 |
| gmaxwell | He did, the ones that are cited in the source. | 16:38 |
| gmaxwell | DJB told me at FC15 that there was another paper which did the flush+reload attack with radically fewer than 200 probes, so I guess this is it. Funny that I didn't see this one before. | 16:40 |
| gmaxwell | katu: re "would need some heavy RF equipment than just hobby SDR" the solution TD-Linux is using is to just run the device under test at a very low clockrate, e.g. 2MHz. | 16:41 |
| TD-Linux | also the SD card I put in the new rpi supports DISCARD which is interesting. mkfs.ext4 picked it up and automatically cleared it | 16:41 |
| gmaxwell | And then sampling at a few MHz is fine, esp if driven off a sync clock. | 16:41 |
| katu | gmaxwell: neat :) | 16:41 |
| katu | gmaxwell: though gives skewed image regarding real world practicality (i assume the likes of trezor use internal crystal to prevent this?) | 16:42 |
| TD-Linux | I mean, the goal is to make something practical with a lot of conditions first, then remove the conditions :) | 16:42 |
| gmaxwell | trezor is not really hardened hardened against an attacker with physical access. | 16:42 |
| katu | (by "this" i mean the whole class of glitching attacks) | 16:43 |
| jcorgan | it's harder but you can sample incoherently and recover the clock, then retime the samples | 16:43 |
| gmaxwell | My hope is that we'd be able to make a blind sidchannel measurement for CI, like litterly measuring the cross-correlation between the same and different secrets, and then being able to give a "sidechain energy dB" which is a worst case measurement, and track it as part of CI. | 16:43 |
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| gmaxwell | katu: trezor has no security against glitching attacks. (in fact for a long time you could just read out the nonce hamming weight by timinig it over usb and be within +/- 1 99% of the time. | 16:44 |
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| gmaxwell | (the implementation was so slow that you did not need exotic hardware to do sidechannel attacks on it) | 16:45 |
| katu | gmaxwell: hmm, i vaguely remember talking with stick and he was talking about some sort of hardened TI MCU | 16:45 |
| katu | though i'm completely oblivious about trezor | 16:45 |
| TD-Linux | the CPU I'm using for this is the same as the one in the trezor (stm32f4) | 16:46 |
| katu | ah | 16:46 |
| gmaxwell | katu: it has 'crypto' features which are mostly not useful for bitcoin applications. | 16:46 |
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| TD-Linux | err actually I think trezor is stm32f2, but similar. | 16:46 |
| katu | not EM protected, but glitching is very very old attack | 16:46 |
| katu | i remember cloning sim cards through it mid 2000s :) | 16:47 |
| gmaxwell | I was told last night that someone had managed to use a rare earth magnet to glitch embedded devices. Actually seems like not a terrible idea, you can get a surface field if >1 tesla... then just move it fast over the chip, should cause a fair amount of current. | 16:49 |
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| bramc | My commentary on modular square roots for proofs of sequential work, pasted from an email: | 17:42 |
| bramc | Modular square roots have the advantage that the checking time for them is super fast. They have the disadvantages that the space of a proof is linear-ish on the time it took to generate, and they might be optimized dramatically in the future, especially if custom hardware is built specifically to be as fast as possible, quadratic blowup of power be damned. On the plus side, at current speeds for and for the amounts of t | 17:42 |
| bramc | ime I want they probably work great. On the downside it's likely that it's possible to get two or three orders of magnitude improvement in their times, which would cause a massive disruption in the short term, and once that speedup has happened the linear relationship will have caused the sizes of proofs to become unacceptably large. On the plus side, I'd view fostering the generation of such hardware and causing it to b | 17:42 |
| bramc | e well optimized to the limits of current technology to be a positive thing in and of itself. | 17:42 |
| bramc | On the whole, the naive approach is still clearly winning, but maybe if the size/time tradeoff could be made exponentialish instead of linearish a more sophisticated approach would win, even if custom hardware has the potential to be massively faster. | 17:42 |
| sipa | why is the proof linear in the time it took to generate? | 17:44 |
| sipa | the proof is just the root of the number, no? | 17:44 |
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| sipa | also, not every number has a square root | 17:46 |
| bramc | sipa, You do it for something which does have a square root, and the number of modular exponentiations you have to do is based on the length of the modulus in bits | 17:52 |
| kanzure | "John Conway's contributions on mathforum.org (1993-2004)" http://mathforum.org/kb/profile.jspa?userID=526 | 17:52 |
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| sipa | bramc: i'm aware... but for something like PoW, I would expect that you have to try random inputs | 18:03 |
| sipa | bramc: which means that not only you need to square root quickly, you also need to be able to quickly determine that an input has none :) | 18:04 |
| bramc | sipa: I believe that if you use a group with a generator of 2, then always either x or -x is a quadratic residue, so the result of a challenge is either the square root of x or the square root of -x | 18:04 |
| sipa | right, indeed | 18:08 |
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| kang_ | Side-channel attack reveals secp256k1 key after 6 signature observations: https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1141.pdf | 20:41 |
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| kanzure | kang_: see near 16:03 http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-11-27.log | 20:51 |
| kang_ | kanzure: you're a legend man | 20:52 |
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