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| bramc | Is it important to clean up memory as data is deleted or does it really, really not matter? | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| bramc | Today on the anal retentive programmer: How to clean your bit bucket | 00:20 |
| Luke-Jr | bramc: … what do you mean? | 00:24 |
| Luke-Jr | if you don't free your memory, it will obviously leak | 00:24 |
| bramc | Luke-Jr, I'm doing my own memory management, it's a question of whether I zero stuff out when it's no longer used (the zeroing in some cases contains semantic information, in others it's just redundant) | 00:25 |
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| bramc | This is for my Merkle Set | 00:48 |
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| Taek | bramc: You should definintely zero out memory if there is secret data. Otherwise it's not needed | 01:25 |
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| petertodd | gmaxwell: "Petertodd actually proposed basically the same idea" <- no, I was asked to do it - part of why I dropped the contract was I thought going to all that effort just to get rid of a GB of UTXO's was a bad idea | 04:30 |
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| bsm117532 | The ever-growing utxo set is beginning to weigh on my mind. I wonder if there's a way to use ZKP's to keep a "virtual" utxo set. i.e. a transaction could be a ZKP proof of a valid state transition on the ledger, without anyone actually keeping the ledger. This would presumably require clients to keep more data about their utxos. | 06:01 |
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| phantomcircuit | bsm117532, not without reducing the security of the system to the security of the zkp | 06:03 |
| phantomcircuit | which would certainly be less than the security of the current scheme | 06:03 |
| phantomcircuit | to a limited extent clients can produce partial proofs that their transactions are valid and then full node operators can build fraud proofs to counter | 06:04 |
| phantomcircuit | however such a scheme still requires full nodes exist and be available but more so changes the censorship resistance requirement substantially | 06:05 |
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| phantomcircuit | bsm117532, tl;dr yes but not | 06:05 |
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| bsm117532 | phantomcircuit: none of what you say is obvious to me, nor how to do it. Do you know of any work in this direction? | 06:45 |
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| bsm117532 | Another way of stating the same thing might be: "Could the UTXO set be kept entirely on the client side, and validated with ZKP's?" If possible it would allow node scaling to be only dependent on the number of transactions, not the number of accounts/addresses/users. | 06:50 |
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| phantomcircuit | bsm117532, yes but unproven crypto | 06:57 |
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| bsm1175321 | I was just wondering if a Schnorr signature could be used, likening to gmaxwell's presentation of Schnorr signatures for multisig -- could signatures for the last n-1 transactions (all transactions back to the coin's origin coinbase/genesis) be combined with the holder's signature when spent? | 07:26 |
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| maaku_ | bsm1175321: zkp rely on cryptographic assumptions that are new to bitcoin | 07:30 |
| sipa | bsm1175321: the efficient schnorr combining of multiple signatures only works when they sign the same message | 07:41 |
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| bsm1175321 | maaku_: I'm willing to consider other assumptions, this is -wizards. ;-) | 08:00 |
| bsm1175321 | sipa: so such a scheme would have to be similar to Chaumian e-cash. The signature would have to be on the serial number of a fixed denomination, rather than divisible utxos. | 08:00 |
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| bramc | maaku_, I've come up with specifics of filling in the details of a patricia trie which I like. It mostly has to do with making proofs of non-inclusion efficient. | 08:32 |
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| coinoperated | @kanzure, in the scalability summary deck you made, on Pg 18 (and i think again a few slides later) you refer to pruning, "invalidate old UTXOs", with sub notes suggesting cases like burning old BTC and move old BTC to miner subsidy or other purposes. Are there more details on these proposals anywhere, and how seriously were they taken? | 09:12 |
| coinoperated | at face value these would seem to be rather unpopular suggestions | 09:14 |
| bsm1175321 | coinoperated: There was some discussion of this on the mailing list this week. Indeed the proposals were unpopular. | 09:15 |
| bsm1175321 | This thread: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011952.html | 09:16 |
| coinoperated | @bsm1175321: ah thanks, dormant accounts escheat to the state in traditional banking, this would be a Bitcoin version of that practice then | 09:17 |
| pigeons | coinoperated: in this proposal the funds aren't lost to the owner, they can still be spent | 09:18 |
| bsm1175321 | Some of the replies discussed confiscating coins though... | 09:18 |
| coinoperated | i wonder if in 20 years this will not be as unpopular. one cannot fight for their rights to posession from the grave | 09:21 |
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| coinoperated | or in the language of the proposal linked above" It becomes the responsibility of dormant coin holders to scan the | 09:23 |
| coinoperated | blockchain for the current status of the UTXO commitment for their coin. " | 09:23 |
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| bsm1175321 | coinoperated: proof-of-life or death is by necessity centralized, generally a function of the state. And there's no reason autonomous programs couldn't keep bitcoin wallets. | 09:24 |
| bsm1175321 | Lots of people throughout history have been declared dead so corrupt states could seize their assets. | 09:25 |
| coinoperated | even autonomous programs need someone feeding them electricity | 09:26 |
| coinoperated | you don't have to be dead even, just insufficiently relevant to consensus | 09:27 |
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| bsm1175321 | We're veering offtopic. But ways to reduce the utxo set are still interesting. | 09:27 |
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| coinoperated | do you know of a place where discussion of issues that have a general bearing on Bitcoin's long term developemnt are on topic? | 09:29 |
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| bsm1175321 | Well here, or bitcoin-dev. I'm just saying proof-of-death isn't a technical issue that cryptography has any bearing on. | 09:30 |
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| coinoperated | oh i see, i wasn't really thinking in terms of proof of death, just using it as a comparative case in fiat contexts. You don't have to be dead, just unable to fight your corner for whatever reason, while consensus on a hard fork closes in on a solution that invalidates your UTXOs. I guess this is not a suitable topic for the IRC format though. | 09:33 |
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| kanzure | more on lightning onion routing http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-December/000384.html http://pastebin.com/vLUiW168 | 15:56 |
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| Logicwax | with BIP65, if nLocktime is being used for a different purpose (min age of outputs)....is nLocktime ignored when determining if a TX is valid to be mined? (the original use of nLocktime) | 16:08 |
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| Logicwax | i get confused when i read "OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY checks if the original TX nLockTime is larger than the most recent block" | 16:11 |
| Logicwax | to me thags confusing, because wouldnt that previous TX not be mined if its nLockTime was in the future? | 16:12 |
| sipa | txn with nLockTime values that are in the future are not valid in the blockchain | 16:12 |
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| Logicwax | thats what i thought....so with bip65 is that ignored? | 16:13 |
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| sipa | no | 16:13 |
| Logicwax | how does a bip65 TX get mined if its nLockTime is set to some time in the future? | 16:13 |
| sipa | bip65 allows a transaction to put a constraint on the nLockTime of the transaction spending it | 16:14 |
| Logicwax | ah... | 16:14 |
| sipa | indirectly that impacts when that transaction can go into the blockchain | 16:14 |
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| sipa | and i think you're confusing things with bip112, which is like bip65, but with relative time rather than absolute time | 16:16 |
| Logicwax | so bip65 would mean the TX puts a rule that the future TX spending that has to have a nLockTime meeting some min requirement (while also, obviously meeting the requirement of nLockTime's original use, which is no time in the future) | 16:16 |
| Logicwax | na...i mean absolute | 16:16 |
| sipa | right; OP_CLTV sets a constraint on nLockTime; nLockTime sets a constraint on block chain inclusion | 16:17 |
| Logicwax | i was just confused as to whether nLockTime gets ignored like how sequences get repurposed in 112 | 16:17 |
| Logicwax | ok i get it | 16:17 |
| Logicwax | thanks | 16:17 |
| sipa | no, we can't change nLockTime's semantics, that would be a hardfork | 16:17 |
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| sipa | nSequence however has no consensus rules associated with it, so BIP68 assigns it some first | 16:18 |
| Logicwax | yea | 16:18 |
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| bramc | The set containing exactly one element is a really, really annoying edge case | 17:44 |
| bsm117532 | Seems like it would be easy to special case everywhere? | 17:45 |
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| bramc | bsm117532 Yes it's easy, but it's also hella annoying | 17:50 |
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| nanasho | bitcoin-pricetalk invite only | 23:05 |
| nanasho | help a fellow human being out | 23:05 |
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| p15 | try ##bitcoin | 23:58 |
| --- Log closed Tue Dec 15 00:00:26 2015 | ||
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