2015-12-21.log

--- Log opened Mon Dec 21 00:00:42 2015
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kanzurehttps://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/segwit/bip-segwit.mediawiki05:29
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jl2012kanzure: please comment, and tell me if you want more examples05:35
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Greyboyhow do you get invite to #bitcoin-pricetalk?06:43
phy1729iirc that channel was closed06:43
chmod755Greyboy, ##bitcoin is the new #bitcoin-pricetalk06:44
Greyboythank you!06:44
Greyboychmod 755, why do you like 755, better than say, 700 or 644?06:44
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phy1729perhaps just be umask02206:46
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kanzuremore about icestorm fpga stuff http://www.excamera.com/sphinx/article-j1a-swapforth.html10:35
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e0_What is the status of Schnorr sigs in Bitcoin, I see that Schnorr sign/verify/etc exist in the code base.11:52
e0_Is there anyway to call them from an op code?11:52
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adam3usnot yet. but maybe soonish :)11:55
adam3uslots of advantages hence motivation11:55
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Eliel_segwit sounds like a good chance to activate them.12:27
adam3usit helps scale too because n of n multisg schnorr are same size as 1 sig.12:28
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instagibbsEliel_, that was my thought too...12:30
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moahttp://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/12/21/154925813:24
kanzure.title13:24
yoleauxHTTP Error Code 451 Approved For Censored Web Pages - Slashdot13:24
bramchaha13:25
moai was conflicted, should I laugh or cry or both?13:26
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moais it a fair to say that voluntary consensus is an example of emergent behaviour?13:42
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moacoalescence around a common concept/direction in the free market of ideas13:43
moatrying to formalise this is a direct mapping to a mathematical description of emergence, automata and that field of study13:44
moanone of which I have seen much success with, tbh.13:44
jcorganif it could be coded deterministically, it would be part of the consensus rules.  instead, the emergent behavior is only "calculable" by letting it happen.13:46
moamy point being is that I don't think that it can be formalised13:47
moaor that would be an internal contradiction in logic13:48
jcorgani think we're saying the same thing13:48
moai think we are13:48
moaa godel-like theorem for emergence/consensus13:50
coinoperatedconsensus forms opportunistically, where signalling conditions align in such a way as to permit a self-reinforcing feedback loop to start forming.  it doesn't have to be voluntary opt-in, it doesn't have to be a conscious process at all..13:52
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bramcAlso in discussion yesterday, gmaxwell has this great idea which may or may not have been discussed on the list of making weak blocks which have pointers to transaction sets which aren't actually their transaction sets, so they can help those transactions propagate without taking the hit on adding an orphan rate for themselves if they succeed14:06
AdrianGdeterministic rules would be incomplete, not internally contradictory.14:06
e0_adam3us can't we do n of n multisig with threshold sigs right now for the price of one sig?14:08
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bramcAnd some discussion of strategies for reference semantics of weak blocks. General feeling is that weak blocks should be able to support a single reference to a prior weak block, and nodes should forward all weak blocks over the decided on threshold. No discussion of what that threshold should be. I'm guessing a simple value around the order of 1/10 or 1/100 a block's difficulty.14:09
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bramcIn principle supporting a DAG instead of a linked list of weak blocks gets marginally more compression, but nobody sounded like they had any appetite for working on it and everybody was queasy about potential implementation errors on the edge cases.14:11
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adam3use0_: no. n of n ecdsa is n*sizeof(ecdsa)14:17
AdrianGis there any formal papers on bitcoin consensus and continuous game equilibrium14:17
moaAdrianG: deterministic rules for a self-determined entity is a clear contradiction14:17
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e0_adam3us what am I missing "Threshold signatures14:21
e0_look no different from single-key signatures and thus14:21
e0_avoid the shortcomings of multi-signature transactions.14:21
e0_Threshold signatures applied to Bitcoin wallets can be14:21
e0_considered “stealth multi-signatures.”"14:21
e0_damn carriage returns14:21
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e0_https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~stevenag/threshold_sigs.pdf14:22
mrkent_What gets published on the old blockchain in weakblock/subchains scenario when strong block is found? I'd imagine the whole set of transactions since the last strong block?14:23
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coinoperatedAdrianG:   i would expect to see broad analysis published in Ledger, assuming it makes it out the door.14:35
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btcdrakIn case anyone missed it https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases14:45
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kanzurestrange, p2pool page on bitcoin wiki does not mention variance more than once15:18
kanzurehttps://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/P2Pool15:18
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kanzuresuggested content re: p2pool plz? https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/issues/116815:31
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midnightmagickanzure: sharechain window size; lack of sharechain-linked tx implies, IMO, that the sharechain is a much more natural fit for e.g. braided chains or a treechain structure to reduce the perception of an orphan rate; p2pool has address privacy enhancements over.. as far as I can tell all the other pools..; chronobit works with p2pool; p2pool does transparent merged-mining but not sharechain-e16:00
midnightmagicnhanced merged-mining; and due to its built-in relay netwrk has lower orphan rates than any other pool did, in the past.16:00
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kanzuremidnightmagic: added to issue, thanks19:15
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bramcThere's this unfortunate pattern that highly technical and uncontroversial ideas don't generate much discussion, while nontechnical and controversial ones do, as a result of which there's nearly an inverse correlation between how good an idea is and how much discussion there is of it.19:41
moacall it the "Kadashian effect"19:42
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bramcHa!19:45
bramcAlthough there isn't much controversial about Kim Kardashian. The only thing controversial about her is whether she deserves her fame, which she has mostly because of the controversy about whether she deserves her fame.19:46
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bramcIt's not like, say, block size increase discussion, where all of the ideas are at least somewhat controversial.19:47
eragmus1FYI: https://twitter.com/bergalex/status/679133701800910848 — "Peter R, Managing Editor https://twitter.com/LedgerJrnlhttps://twitter.com/LedgerJrnl, an academic publication, lobbying https://twitter.com/gavinandresenhttps://twitter.com/gavinandresen to sabotage Bitcoin Core repo" — https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWzEgL9WUAMY5nf.png19:47
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moathe thing about drama queens is that everything is controversial19:48
midnightmagicthis is not the spot for that please.19:48
eragmus1oh, okay, sorry.19:48
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bramcIt's funny how the actual segregating witness parts of segwit are mentioned as tertiary benefits. They are of course tremendously important in their own right, for actually adding functionality instead of just trying to keep the system from imploding.19:57
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adam3usbramc: indeed.23:35
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