2016-02-01.log

--- Log opened Mon Feb 01 00:00:20 2016
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instagibbsI literally lol'd at the hour thing05:02
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adam3usso a few days ago we were talking about ext-blocks vs hard-forks. several people say that ext-blocks are worse. could they explain by what principle / reason / argument. i do see non-optin SPV risk if one's fullnode doesnt have the bandwidth to validate the extension. but if the ext-block is 2MB and the HF would be 2MB also - is there a difference?07:45
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Eliel_adam3us: If there is, I can't guess at what it is.08:50
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silvaediumyer a wizard harry!11:03
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Eliel_adam3us: I do know that many people would actually want both SW and 2MB HF, though. Many think SW will be too little too late.11:22
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Luke-JrEliel_: it doesn't make sense to do both, and SW will likely be far earlier than any HF *could* be11:34
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@kanzureadam3us: they seem unwilling to elaborate in public.11:36
PeterRAdam, for me it's (at least) two reasons:11:37
PeterR#1. Extension blocks change the data structures in such a way that SPV nodes and other wallets would need to make compatible changes. Simply changing the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE constant is very simple in comparison.11:37
PeterR#2. At least for the segwit proposal, block space in the segwit "extension block" is discounted by a factor of 4X--which seems like a "central plannerish" way to set prices.11:37
adam3usPeterR: well on #1 SPV nodes trust miners anyway.. so that maybe no difference.11:38
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PeterRI'm referring to the complexity and work required to support the change.  Upgrading wallets to support segwit is more work than bumping the 1,000,000 byte MAX_BLOCK_SIZE constant.  Do you disagree?11:41
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Eliel_PeterR: In case you haven't paid attention, I think most here would want SW even if it wasn't being used to extend capacity. It is more complex and more work, but it also improves several other things at the same time. It's not that difficult to implement.11:51
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Luke-Jrkanzure: adam3us: seriously, what is the benefit of ext-blocks? it's hugely complex.11:55
Luke-Jra soft-hardfork seems better in every way, and much simpler11:55
PeterRElilel: I like segwit too. What I don't like is the "accounting" needed to implement it as a hard fork. In order to limit the non-segwit data to 1,000,000 bytes, the rule is:11:56
PeterRbase x 4 + segwit <= 4,000,000 bytes11:56
PeterR(Note that if segwit = 0, then this inequality reduces to "base <= 1,000,000 bytes").11:56
PeterRBut with segwit as a hardfork, we would have:11:56
PeterRbase + segwit <= 2,000,000 bytes11:56
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PeterROr more simply:11:56
PeterRtransactional data < 2,000,000 bytes11:56
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PeterR*first sentence should read "to implement it as a SOFT fork"11:57
Eliel_PeterR: I'd still prefer lower weight for the witness part.11:57
adlaiPeterR: I believe the point is that the non-opted-in network is not forced to even acknowledge the new network's existence11:58
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PeterRI think the idea to possible adjust the weighting is very interesting.  But I would prefer it to be done through a market-driven process.11:58
PeterRAnd the defaults should be set with some communication with the community.  Right now, people are surprised to hear that TXs with large signatures are given an effective discount of up to 75%.11:59
instagibbssigops are still bounded via cap12:00
PeterRWhen people hear this, they think it might be a sneaky move to subsidize future TXs that could have large signatures (such as compact proofs used to return sidechain coins to the main chain).12:01
instagibbsjtoomim already said as much12:01
instagibbsit's to discourage utxo set growth12:02
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Eliel_PeterR: I'd prefer a market driven process too. However, I have no idea whatsoever on how to actually implement it in a way that would work in practice and that wouldn't add complexity to the implementation, that 1:4 is fine for now. We can replace SW in the future with the exact same process, if a better way is figured out.12:02
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instagibbsin a future HF we can do a linear combination of cost factors, and then argue about how to make them dynamic instead of just blocksize. woo12:03
PeterRMarket process is easy: start with 1:1 or 1:2 or whatever seems to minimize the complaints.  But then let miners easily adjust the price for the two types of block space.  (Of course, taking into account any hard-coded limits).12:03
@kanzure"changing the constant is is simple" (notice how there's no link to the large diffs that have been proposed)12:04
TD-LinuxPeterR, but the "hard-coded limits" are what's under the discussion. miners can already do as you describe12:05
instagibbsMiners would be able to fiddle to their heart's desire below that linear combination.12:05
PeterRTD-Linux: Yes then can do as I described.  I'd like to make it easier for them by giving them the best tools, and make the dialog about the price of the two types of block space a more visible topic.12:06
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PeterR*they12:13
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PeterRGot to run.  Nice chatting with everyone.12:18
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@kanzurenone of the above reasons were related to what bluematt or luke-jr said12:22
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psztorcMircea Popescu has proposed a highly interesting way to (among other things) incentivize/compensate full nodes. http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/12:25
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trompi'm not sure i understand his proposal. would this digest be part of the header? and part of the PoW input? that amounts to radically changing the PoW12:39
trompif not part of the PoW input, then the pool operator can just add it post-facto and nothing changes12:41
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psztorcIt starts very simple: [1] you can prove that you _are_ an up-to-date full node by providing x = H(everything), and then [2] protocol change such that miners need x in order for each block to be valid.12:48
psztorcBut then it gets a dramatic upgrade: "everything" is shortened to "a smaller sample of everything", which shuffles after each block is found.12:48
psztorcThe shuffling forces each nonce to clear two hurdles, and nodes can help clear the first, and "sell" this.12:49
psztorcSo nodes can, theoretically, sell percentage-point-improvements in finding a block.12:49
Eliel_so, effectively that'd mean that validating and mining become potentially separate activities and those who only want to mine might pay for validation services?12:51
psztorcI think that that is true.12:51
@kanzure"nonce-th byte" yea....12:52
psztorcMiners need fully valid 'half blocks' in order to mine; 'half blocks' need to have the entire chain history.12:52
@kanzurenot sure why i should expect the nonce-th byte to exist in every previous block. what about small blocks that had little content?12:53
zookoFYI: https://forum.bitcoin.com/ama-ask-me-anything/i-m-zooko-wilcox-ceo-of-the-zcash-company-ask-me-anything-t5413.html12:54
psztorcIf I understand him completely (not likely), you concatenated (and wrap) the entire thing.12:54
psztorcThere's a little mouseover example, that the people here probably understand better than I.12:55
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@kanzure"This forces a minimum population of nodes to exist in order for mining to even be possible" what? is that true? i think it just means you force the miner to have a lot of parallelism, not a lot of nodes.12:55
psztorcThat's basically what I asked him about.12:56
psztorc"Two different ASIC types".12:57
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psztorcEven if you had parallism, though, you can still *improve* your position by asking nodes to help.12:58
@kanzureposition?12:59
psztorcYour mining ROI.12:59
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psztorckanzure: Upon closer inspection, he just wraps it within each block.13:01
psztorcYou probably figured that out, although he double-uses "c3" which reduced the clarity of the example a smidge.13:01
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zookokanzure, oh human encyclopedia: please tell me the URL of gmaxwell's post about "zero-knowledge proofs without moon math"!13:06
@kanzurehttp://people.xiph.org/~greg/simple_verifyable_execution.txt13:07
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psztorcLow battery -- be back later.13:26
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JackHhttp://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ anyone seen this?14:18
fluffyponyJackH: it was already mentioned here, check the logs14:18
JackHoho14:19
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Eliel_Mircea's idea would seriously increase the I/O bandwidth use for even just validating blocks...14:39
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Eliel_you'd have to basically read the whole blockchain to validate any new block.14:39
Eliel_Well, this'd basically just change the PoW algorithm from SHA256 to a proof of blockchain storage algorithm and make block validation take much much longer than it does today.14:48
Eliel_It's intriguing, but I don't like it. Running a full node is resource intensive enough already. No need to blow that to the next dimension.14:50
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Luke-Jrsomeone takes Mircea seriously? O.o14:59
fluffyponyLuke-Jr: Paul Sztorc (!!) did15:00
Eliel_Luke-Jr: Not me, not after this proposal. But then again, I'd have never even looked at it if it wasn't discussed here first :P15:01
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Eliel_Although, I must admit I'm not quite sure if Mircea himself thinks he's being serious or not.15:02
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Luke-JrEliel_: it seems much more serious than his usual trolling, IMO. it just doesn't think the idea through far enough.15:11
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JackHhe seems quite certain of himself and even writes that he refuses to accept it wont work15:29
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JackHin his universe, his words are absolute - its quite funny to read15:29
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psztorcToo bad it got a veto from Greg.15:50
psztorcJackH: He does that on purpose, to manipulate the type of people who choose to read his blog.15:51
psztorcThe secret is that he isn't arrogant at all -- only pretending.15:51
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JackHwell, I dont feel offended at all, but his wording is similar to that of a mad man with grand delusions of self15:55
JackHnot really the approach I would take to present a BIP, haha15:56
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psztorcWhy not?16:05
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adlaiif people stopped calling publications "BIPs" unless they followed patches-first-patter-latter, that'd be nice16:08
adlaiLuke-Jr: one of the worst curses of Bitcoin is that people take eachother seriously in all the wrong ways and none of the right ones16:09
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adlaiwhat's the plan for long-term handling of the utxo set? i'm aware of bramc's work towards making utxo commitments feasible, but is anybody focusing on ways to either add a cost to utxo spam, or at least incentivise its reduction?16:19
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ajadlai: a plan is described http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/validation-cost-metric/16:24
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instagibbsyou can also cap utxo set size16:32
instagibbsjl2012 wrote up one version of it16:33
adlaicapping utxo set size sounds a little like introducing a cumulative blockchain cap rather than per-block...16:33
instagibbsit's a cumulative datastructure that requires fast access :/16:34
adlaiaj: thank you16:37
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Luke-Jradlai: SegWit does add such costs (by discounting non-UTXO data)16:59
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Luke-Jralso by not allowing the entire 2 MB to be stuffed with UTXO inflation spam16:59
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Luke-Jr(ie, only 1 MB of it can be UTXO changes)17:00
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adlaiwouldn't the segwit softfork only increase the cost of utxo spam if segwit transactions become popular enough to raise the fee market to a degree felt by non-segwit transactions?17:01
ajit increases the cost of utxo spam compared to just raising the blocksize to 2MB17:03
Luke-Jradlai: that seems probable17:03
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Luke-Jradlai: most scaling solutions do that, really17:04
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Luke-Jreg, Lightning reduces the per-legit-tx cost such that spam becomes much more expensive relatively17:04
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adlaii think aj nailed it: this is a reason for segwit-softfork being a qualitatively better scaling "can-kick" than a 2MB hardfork17:08
adlaiLuke-Jr: my concern is that expense relative to non-spam use isn't enough, if non-spam use becomes cheaper... you might even spam getting cheaper in absolute terms, if non-spam use doesn't increase to take advantage of low fees17:09
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adlai"absolute terms" being "total bitcoin cost"; this analysis does not account for absolutes beyond...17:11
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Luke-Jradlai: miners are less incentivised to misbehave mining the spam17:14
Luke-Jrand it is easier for them to detect it17:14
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ajanyone know how big the mempool is at the moment, if you drop all the relay limits to zero?17:17
belcherit depends on stuff like how long your node has been running, there is no "the" mempool17:18
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ajsure; i'm wondering when my mempool will have "caught up"; i'm at ~11MB atm17:19
belcherbetter for #bitcoin, but you dont catch up, your newly-started node will just store transactions as they arrive, not get historical ones17:20
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rustybelcher: not quite true, there's generally a steady state.  In my experience it's about a week, but that was over a year ago.17:27
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bramcHey everybody17:49
bramcSo I'm *this* close to switching from 'real' mark and sweep of variable size entries leaves to having fixed size individual nodes and making a linked list of unused nodes17:51
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bramcThe downside is that it wastes a bit of space in nodes which aren't terminal, and about half the space in nodes which only have something on one side. On the plus side, it wastes less space because blocks as a whole get a lot more full, and it's vastly simpler17:53
bramcsomething only on one side I mean17:53
bramcWhether it's net more or less cache misses is highly unclear, it depends on the usage pattern17:54
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bramcAnybody have any thoughts? Or even have any idea what I'm babbling about?17:55
* adlai wishes bramc would publish a "this is what I've been babbling about" already, even if it's not frozen solid yet :)17:56
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bramcThe other thing I could do is make intermediate values with stuff only on one side have to get recomputed, to save space at the expense of CPU and complexity. Maybe I should punt and say that I'll do that 'later'17:58
bramcReally skimping on just the last branch would give most of the savings there, and wouldn't be all that complex17:59
bramcadlai: The big comment at the top of https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet/blob/master/merkle_set.py has a reasonable explanation of the data format18:00
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adlaity bramc18:02
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bramcI'm really liking this single level punt. Then the node values become MIDDLE, ONLY0, ONLY1, TERM0, TERM1, TERMBOTH, and ONLY0_THEN_TERMBOTH and ONLY1_THEN_TERMBOTH18:04
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bramcWhich saves most of the space wasted by ONLY0 and ONLY1 at only a modest cost to extra CPU and complexity18:05
bramcAnd best of all, I can totally punt on it for now because it's a nice separated task to put in the TODO list18:06
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bramcOkay I'm sold. Now I need to break out the machete. Eugh.18:12
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bramcCome to think of it, all ONLY0 and ONLY1 before a TERMBOTH can be skipped all the time, with no special designation20:10
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bramcONLY0 and ONLY1 still have to be included because there might be more complicated stuff before them and because they occur in branches, but that's a small amount of wasted space20:15
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adlaibramc: what's active_child?21:01
bramcadlai: That's the child which overflows are currently being put into21:01
bramcadlai: It's a simple trick to make it so that the children are mostly filled up without having a complex structure where the parent remembers how much is in different children and constantly tries to juggle them21:05
bramcadlai: When a leaf child gets too big to fit in a single block some of its data is put into the parent's active child as well. This isn't implemented yet though.21:06
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* adlai will simply have to read the fine source :)21:10
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 02 00:00:21 2016

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