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| fluffypony | https://shnoe.wordpress.com/2016/02/11/de-anonymizing-shadowcash-and-oz-coin/ | 03:49 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | .title | 03:51 |
| yoleaux | Broken Crypto in Shadowcash and OZ-coin – shnoe | 03:51 |
| wumpus | someone is putting effort into trying to break obscure altcoins at all, that surprises me most about that article | 03:53 |
| fluffypony | wumpus: Shen is the guy that created RingCT, so it was during that process | 03:54 |
| wumpus | usually they avoid any kind of serious review, and get away with the grandest claims, just by sake of being unknown | 03:54 |
| wumpus | oh they have bug bounties, wow | 03:55 |
| fluffypony | I will lol if they pay out | 03:56 |
| wumpus | fluffypony: right, he knows what he's talking about | 03:56 |
| smooth | lol well it pays out in brokencoin | 03:57 |
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| Taek | It would be fun to run an 'adversarial cryptocurrency construction' class that had students analyze live cryptocurrencies for flaws | 09:20 |
| Taek | I'm not sure what responsible disclosure would look like in that case though | 09:20 |
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| Taek | especially if the students hadn't really developed a sense for what qualifies as professional/ethical behavior when breaking real systems | 09:21 |
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| fluffypony | Taek: if a live cryptocurrency is broken I suspect you have to disclose publicly so people stop using it, and people are motivated to run a patch / fix | 09:24 |
| MRL-Relay | [othe] DJB did that with his students http://it.slashdot.org/story/04/12/15/2113202/djb-announces-44-security-holes-in-nix-software | 09:25 |
| fluffypony | Or it has to be snuck in, but the risk is great that an attacker will notice the snuck in fix and exploit it | 09:25 |
| fluffypony | And between now and then users are at risk | 09:25 |
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| MRL-Relay | [shen] I mean, for this one, the past year of transactions on sdc are de-anonymized, it's not like that's fixable no matter what they do now | 09:26 |
| MRL-Relay | [shen] that's the problem with having a public blockchain | 09:26 |
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| Eliel_ | fluffypony: yes, the only way to succesfully sneak a security update is to camouflage it to look like a partial rewrite. And even then the vulnerability has to be hard to spot for this to work. | 10:33 |
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| Eliel_ | So, if you've got some messy code that needs a security fix, that's a great chance to refactor it into a nicer form :P | 10:34 |
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| fluffypony | lol | 11:11 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 12:33 | |
| -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Thu Oct 29 17:53:34 2015] | 12:33 | |
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| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 276 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 275 normal] | 12:33 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 12:33 | |
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| nanasho | adam3us_: whats the biggest problem that keeps us from proper sidechains? | 13:14 |
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| bsm117532 | How to mine them. | 13:22 |
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| bsm117532 | And removing the federated peg. | 13:25 |
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| nanasho | as far as i can understand | 13:25 |
| bsm117532 | http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/37876/what-is-fed-peg-and-predefined-functionaries-with-sidechains | 13:25 |
| nanasho | bitcoins pegged to the sidechain wont move on the mainchain | 13:26 |
| nanasho | but on the sidechain | 13:26 |
| nanasho | ownership of the private key (and therefore mainchain coins) is passed on in sidechain blocks | 13:26 |
| nanasho | am i wrong to assume this is how it works? | 13:26 |
| bsm117532 | Correct AFAIK. The problem is moving coins back to the main chain. | 13:27 |
| nanasho | well they haven't moved on the mainchain | 13:27 |
| bsm117532 | If we establish a sidechain with 1BTC each, and I transfer the sidechain coins to you, you should be able to cash out to the main chain and have 2 BTC. | 13:28 |
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| nanasho | yes | 13:28 |
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| nanasho | so i have to get hold of the private key | 13:29 |
| nanasho | of your bitcoin | 13:29 |
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| nanasho | whereas you should have never had access to that private key to begin with | 13:29 |
| nanasho | whereas you should have never *have access to that private key to begin with | 13:29 |
| bsm117532 | No generally a bitcoin transaction must be created and signed that "nets out" the sidechain. You should never trade keys. | 13:29 |
| nanasho | sure | 13:30 |
| bsm117532 | That's what a federated peg does. | 13:30 |
| nanasho | i get the private key from the address where your pegged coins are | 13:30 |
| bsm117532 | But it's a centralized solution. | 13:30 |
| nanasho | there's got to be a way to transfer that pegged private key on the sidechain | 13:30 |
| bsm117532 | We don't ever trade private keys in bitcoin. We sign transactions that create new outputs. | 13:31 |
| nanasho | without any participant being able to reveal it without currently holding it on the sidechain | 13:31 |
| bsm117532 | What if I send you 0.5 BTC on the sidechain and you want to net out 1.5 BTC? can't just trade keys... | 13:31 |
| nanasho | i see | 13:31 |
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| maaku | nanasho: define "proper sidechains" | 13:38 |
| maaku | the two-way peg is one type of sidechain value transfer mechanism that has plusses and minuses compared with other alternatives, some of which are deployed already | 13:39 |
| maaku | same goes for merged mining | 13:39 |
| maaku | since sidechains are already deployed, I surmise that there is some other property or feature you care about, and I'd be interested to hear what that is | 13:40 |
| maaku | also, #sidechains-dev is a thing | 13:40 |
| bsm117532 | Also, what maaku says. I'm personally unhappy with the merged mining and fed-peg security. But I don't know what a "proper sidechain" is either... | 13:40 |
| nanasho | you mean elements sidechain? | 13:40 |
| maaku | nanasho: yes | 13:41 |
| nanasho | maybe a proper sidechain has not been developed yet | 13:41 |
| maaku | nanasho: again, what do you mean by "proper"? | 13:41 |
| nanasho | what has to be accomplished is that users transacting on the sidechain do not know the mainnet keys they are transacting with | 13:42 |
| maaku | "do not know the mainnet keys they are transacting with" <-- can you explain this, it doesn't seem to make sense | 13:42 |
| maaku | sidechain users are trading specific mainchain coins around | 13:43 |
| nanasho | whereas the key has to somehow be revealable when redeeming sidechain coins for mainchain coins | 13:43 |
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| nanasho | sure, but they dont move the mainchain coins | 13:43 |
| maaku | nanasho: i think you might have some misconceptions about how sidechains work in e.g. elements alpha | 13:43 |
| nanasho | i sure might | 13:43 |
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| nanasho | i am not citing elements sidechain implementation | 13:44 |
| bsm117532 | Is there any other? | 13:44 |
| nanasho | and i have admittedly limited knowledge of how that elements sidechain opperates | 13:44 |
| nanasho | not that i know of, no | 13:44 |
| nanasho | but if its mathematically possible it can be done | 13:44 |
| nanasho | thats why i am asking all these questions | 13:45 |
| bsm117532 | Then you have your answer -- is there a non-sidechain elements sidechain: no. ;-) | 13:45 |
| bsm117532 | (AFAIK) | 13:45 |
| nanasho | i didnt ask that question | 13:46 |
| nanasho | i want to talk about if a non federated two way sidechain is possible | 13:46 |
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| bsm117532 | If "proper sidechain" = "non-sidechain elements", yes you did. ;-) | 13:46 |
| nanasho | i do not care who could've programmed it or if it does not yet exist | 13:46 |
| bsm117532 | Probably best to take this to #sidechain-dev and ask about the fed-peg. I'm at the limit of my knowledge. | 13:47 |
| nanasho | by proper i mean without trusted third parties | 13:47 |
| nanasho | :) | 13:47 |
| nanasho | please understand my intro question as being: whats the biggest problem that keeps us from sidechainswithout trusted third parties? | 13:48 |
| bsm117532 | So, alternatives to a fed-peg. | 13:48 |
| nanasho | yes | 13:48 |
| bsm117532 | I'm helping you narrow your question but I don't have the answer, sorry. ;-) | 13:49 |
| nanasho | #sidechain-dev is the most dead IRC channel i have ever been to | 13:49 |
| bsm117532 | #sidechains-dev ? | 13:49 |
| maaku | nanasho: the biggest problem is that merged mined SPV peg is probably worse in every way than the fedpeg | 13:51 |
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| maaku | instead of trusting N-of-M constractually obligated, bonded individuals spread across many jurisdictions, you're trusting 2-3 randomly selected businessmen under an authoritative regime | 13:52 |
| maaku | fix decentralized mining, then a merged mined SPV peg becomes a possibility | 13:52 |
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| bsm117532 | maaku: (1) Get rid of the free relay of p2p transactions to miners to destroy outsourcing of mining, (2) Require mining of individual transactions, (3) arrange transactions into a braid instead of blocks, (4) introduce lower difficulty targets and a new proportional-to-difficulty incentive model. That's the solution I'm trying to prove, anyway. | 13:56 |
| nanasho | hey maaku, whats your overall opinion on weak blocks? | 13:57 |
| maaku | nanasho: promising; needs more research | 13:58 |
| maaku | note that weak blocks is a broader category of what p2pool always has been, and the beneficial effect there has been real | 13:58 |
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| nanasho | agreed | 13:59 |
| nanasho | i really have to get around reading the whitepaper | 13:59 |
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| nanasho | im not even sure what it allows tbh | 13:59 |
| nanasho | i thought you might tell me :P | 13:59 |
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| nanasho | as i understand it it allows more secure 0-confs but does not rise the max tx/s throughput | 14:03 |
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| maaku | no zeroconf! | 14:09 |
| maaku | maybe you're thinking of lightning? | 14:09 |
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| smooth | bsm117532: im not sure the free relay does that | 14:28 |
| smooth | if you have to pick a miner/service because you dont feel like mining it yourself then your going to pick the biggest most well known ones | 14:28 |
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| bsm117532 | smooth: free relay enables outsourcing of mining, withing the bitcoin protocol itself. It doesn't have to do that... | 14:28 |
| smooth | only if you can actually force people to mine themselves | 14:28 |
| bsm117532 | Outsourcing would probably still occur, but Bitcoin itself doesn't have to do it. | 14:29 |
| smooth | like require signing as part of pow | 14:29 |
| bsm117532 | smooth: that's what I'm talking about. | 14:29 |
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| smooth | ok but that may be impractical for some (many?) uses | 14:29 |
| bsm117532 | Do you want decentralization, or practicality for these hypothetical uses? ;-) | 14:29 |
| smooth | hehe | 14:30 |
| smooth | okay just saying that relay is a mixed blessing is all | 14:30 |
| smooth | it reduces barrier to entry to small miners, if you can come up with a way to be a small miner effectively | 14:30 |
| bsm117532 | smooth: That's part of the lower PoW and braids proposal (kind of like combining weak blocks and p2pool into bitcoin itself, if you will...) | 14:31 |
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| smooth | bsm117532: yes i read it and thought it was impressive, but if tx fees are signficant and im going to be a small miner on a braid, there has to be a way for me to actually get tranasctions | 14:32 |
| r0ach | is there any real argument against the fact that for mining to not centralize to an insignificant number or 1, it would probably need to be unprofitable, and if you're converging to 1, you might as well operate a closed loop system in the first place | 14:36 |
| r0ach | and since mining is just a futures market, replace PoW with it's equivalent of time opportunity cost | 14:36 |
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| r0ach | or as Larimer said, who once disagreed with me on this subject but now made a post agreeing, the only way to accomplish the equivalent of PoW in a closed loop system is either 1) how long you've committed to hold collateral in the past (common PoS) or 2) how long you committ to hold collateral in the future = the same time opportunity cost of PoW mining | 14:43 |
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| r0ach | *commit | 14:44 |
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| bsm117532 | r0ach: part of my mining-at-input idea (mining at the edges) is precisely to make it unprofitable. The marginal cost to me to mine a transaction is negligible, and I will treat it as zero. That forms a tremendous downward price pressure on mining from everyone mining their own transactions for zero compensation. | 15:27 |
| bsm117532 | i.e. I mine my own transaction for a few seconds or minutes, but am not continuously mining as a business model. | 15:28 |
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| bsm117532 | The cost of adding a chip to a motherboard or cell phone to do this is negligible on an individual unit basis too. | 15:29 |
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| r0ach | I haven't given enough thought on those branching, IOTA-like systems. Anonymint claimed it can only reach convergence through centralization. My current theory is that all these systems will centralize to the point of being identical to closed loop systems, so you might as well design it as one in the first place... | 15:41 |
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| r0ach | only thing I see mining useful for is distribution | 15:42 |
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| bsm117532 | r0ach: That's an unfortunate view to be be sitting in this channel. ;-) | 16:52 |
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| bsm117532 | Economies of scale will always exist if outsourcing of mining is allowed. But we can disincentivize it or make it difficult. See also https://www.cs.umd.edu/~jkatz/papers/nonoutsourceable.pdf | 16:53 |
| Aleph0 | just because its not outsourcable, it doesn't mean it will magically decentralize everything. | 16:54 |
| Aleph0 | economies of scale exist regardless of outsourcing. | 16:54 |
| r0ach | yea, I talked to amiller a long time ago. It's a non-solution because it just creates a higher barrier of entry...which just leads to further centralization, and it would be defeated by pools charging a current $10,000 bond for block reward anyway | 16:55 |
| bsm117532 | Yeah one needs to lower the barrier to entry -- hence lower or miner-chosen difficulty targets. | 16:56 |
| r0ach | but that's a different issue from unprofitable mining altogether | 16:56 |
| amiller | i like unprofitable mining, memory-hard puzzle like equihash, high variance + jackpot payouts, and (strong) nonoutsourceable puzzles, i think all of those things together are the best long term soluiton | 16:57 |
| bsm117532 | If users of a currency are allowed to spend $X in electricity and hardware as a throwaway cost and entry to the system, that's $X cheaper an outsourced miner has to run his operation. | 16:57 |
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| bsm117532 | s/allowed/willing/ | 16:57 |
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| Aleph0 | amiller: if mining isnt profitable, why would anyone do it? | 16:58 |
| amiller | Aleph0, same reason people spend $50B a year on lottery tickets, even though that's unprofitable too | 16:58 |
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| r0ach | turning mining into a lottery is really one of the funniest solutions where you just look at it and scratch your head saying, ok, what tricks are the public going to do to reduce variance. They would probably pay you to mine even if no reward is coming in (about half of what you would get with regular payouts), then eventually the big pool strikes it rich and makes a bigger profit | 16:59 |
| r0ach | than you | 16:59 |
| bsm117532 | We all spend money on bank fees. If we spent 1/10 as much on mining hardware in our computers and cell phones... | 16:59 |
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| bsm117532 | I'm actually really worried about variance. From what I understand, it's a major reason p2pool isn't popular. The smaller the miner, the higher the variance. I'd like to find a way to not have that... | 17:00 |
| amiller | bsm117532, that's because people think it has to be profitable, trying to reduce variance is sort of "stuck in local minima" thinking IMO | 17:01 |
| Aleph0 | bsm117532: i have a first hand source on bank fees. | 17:01 |
| r0ach | but anyway, lottery mining woulg probably make things even worse instead of better | 17:01 |
| Aleph0 | they are a pittance. the biggest business is lending. bank fees are just there for the ride. | 17:01 |
| amiller | r0ach, i don't think people would buy lottery tickets if they were (justifiably) concerned that they'd get the ticket stolen from them if they won the big prize | 17:01 |
| amiller | r0ach, "probably make things even worse instead of better" <--- it's tricky, i don't know for sure, i think this sort of idea is inherently difficult to validate | 17:02 |
| Aleph0 | relying on gamblers to secure your network, is a big gamble. forgive the unavoidable pun. | 17:03 |
| r0ach | I mean, solo mining technically already is lotto mining... | 17:03 |
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| amiller | r0ach, yeah but it's a crappy payout structure.... no consolation prizes, no big jackpot | 17:04 |
| bsm117532 | amiller: I do think a better solution is to make it unprofitable. | 17:04 |
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| bsm117532 | The cost of mining is a hedge against fraud that should be borne by everyone. | 17:07 |
| Aleph0 | so an attacker would just buy a lot of tickets | 17:07 |
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| Aleph0 | and potentially attack you AND win the jackpot? | 17:07 |
| Aleph0 | that jackpot sounds like a really big deterrent. | 17:08 |
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| amiller | Aleph0, i dont get it | 17:23 |
| amiller | could you rephrase, who is the attacker? | 17:23 |
| amiller | are you saying that the risk of just being attacked by bitcoin malware that steals your jackpot is enough of a concern no one would do it anyway? | 17:24 |
| amiller | or are you saying that a 51% attacker or something would be more motivated by the jackpot than they would be today? | 17:26 |
| Aleph0 | amiller: 51%, yes,. | 17:29 |
| Aleph0 | you are basically giving them a huge incentive. | 17:30 |
| amiller | i dont see what's the difference, a 51% attacker can earn all the bitcoins anyway | 17:30 |
| amiller | such an attack is expensive, risky, and tanks the value of the coins they'd need to sell off to profit... same deal here | 17:30 |
| Aleph0 | more expensive because of costs to acquire tickets? | 17:31 |
| amiller | oh, sorry, i think now i've just been unclear.... i'm using 'tickets' as just a metaphor for mining | 17:32 |
| Aleph0 | i see. | 17:32 |
| amiller | all i'm proposing is that you do mining like ordinary (well, plus the nonoutsourceable thing), only now when you find a puzzle solution, the remaining bits of the hash are used to determine a reward size | 17:33 |
| amiller | most likely you get a low value consolation prize, maybe sometimes a medium tier prize, sometimes a big ol' jackpot worth literally hundreds of millions of dollars, just like powerball | 17:33 |
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| Aleph0 | amiller: in that case, how do you convince miners to run mining at a loss? | 17:45 |
| Aleph0 | recruit all gambling junkies to operate asic farms? | 17:45 |
| Aleph0 | this could perhaps work if mining is distributed enough so that everyone has a miner in their phone. | 17:46 |
| amiller | i don't think any one of these components is going to solve the whole problem on its own, rather i think everything would need to work right all at once and this would be a significant change... | 17:46 |
| amiller | lets first suppose that the hardware / economy of scale is mostly out of the picture... | 17:47 |
| amiller | yeah, miners in everyone's phone | 17:47 |
| amiller | i don't think you have to do anything special to force mining to be unprofitable | 17:47 |
| amiller | i think the (non-rational) equilibrium will be unprofitable | 17:47 |
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| Aleph0 | amiller: in some ways, it is cheaper to mine than to profitably mine/buy coins | 17:48 |
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| Aleph0 | mental costs of going thru AML/KYC are a lot lower if you just plug the phone in, and mine some coins for microtransactions | 17:48 |
| amiller | the payoff structure in bitcoins would be fixed, but the difficulty factor would be scaled by participation | 17:48 |
| Aleph0 | vs going through the process just to buy some dust | 17:48 |
| amiller | so, all the people who are willing to play at a loss will drive the EV down | 17:49 |
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| bsm117532 | amiller: If mining is nonoutsourceable (e.g. I'm thinking mining a PoW with your tx signature) then submitting a transaction just takes longer when the system is under attack. Why does there have to be a reward at all? (neglecting distribution questions) | 17:49 |
| amiller | i think it's likely that's happening today in a sense, some people mine at a loss, but because of the huge economy of scale there is a pretty powerful contingent of profitable miners | 17:50 |
| amiller | so i guess my hope would be that the economy of scale would be flattened, and then the competition from unrpofitable gamblers would keep the price down so that even the most efficient scaled-up miners are *still* unrpoftiable | 17:50 |
| amiller | another factor to our advantage is that i think there is a differential where small entities and individuals are more wiling to play -EV games, whereas large institutions are more likely only to want +EV ones | 17:51 |
| Aleph0 | you don't think this is beginning to sound like altrusim at some point? | 17:51 |
| amiller | no it's obviously not altruism, it's gambling! | 17:52 |
| amiller | whatever the explanation is for why people spend $50B on state lotteries, i think bitcoin could harness that economic energy to have a decentralized system | 17:52 |
| Aleph0 | business-wise it would be difficult. | 17:54 |
| Aleph0 | state-sanctioned lotteries have a lot of buzz around it. | 17:54 |
| bsm117532 | No it's not. People pay tx fees. All businesses do too, as a cost of doing business. They just pay them in a different way... | 17:55 |
| Aleph0 | bsm117532: i mean in terms of promotion/marketing/onboarding/etc. | 17:55 |
| Aleph0 | one positive thing is that gamblers are quite resourcesful when it comes to getting their fix. | 17:56 |
| amiller | bitcoin has: internet wizard money memes, doge memes, honeybadger of money billboard, anonymous, wikileaks, etc. | 17:56 |
| amiller | plenty of hype! | 17:56 |
| amiller | (i mean... user onboarding materials) | 17:56 |
| amiller | bitcoins destiny isn't just to compete with state monopolies on money creation, but also with state monopolies on lotteries! | 17:57 |
| moa | state lotteries are centralised | 17:57 |
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| amiller | moa.. | 17:58 |
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| moa | amiller: how do you keep your loteery 'unprofitable' without centralised inputs? | 18:04 |
| instagibbs | moa, I think the idea is that "Too many" people mine/get tickets, so it's inherently unprofitable. | 18:06 |
| moa | unprofitable relative to some external pricing mechanism supposedly? | 18:07 |
| instagibbs | like bitcoin mining, but too many people mining at a loss | 18:07 |
| instagibbs | maybe he's talking about something else | 18:08 |
| moa | how does the system know that they are at a loss without some input of the external pricing (necessarily centralising) | 18:08 |
| amiller | moa if people are willing to play -EV lotteries, | 18:12 |
| amiller | then the 'competitive equilibrium' mining difficulty is such that the outcome is -EV | 18:12 |
| amiller | like, that would even be the case today, if there were no such thing as asics and economies of scale | 18:12 |
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| -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja | 21:11 | |
| -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Thu Oct 29 17:53:34 2015] | 21:11 | |
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| [ brand0 ] [ execute ] [ jtremback ] [ nabu ] [ so ] [ zxzzt ] | 21:11 | |
| [ bsm117532 ] [ Fistful_of_Coins] [ justanotheruser] [ nanotube ] [ sparetire ] | 21:11 | |
| [ bsm1175321 ] [ fkhan ] [ K1773R ] [ nba_btchip ] [ sparetire_ ] | 21:11 | |
| [ btcdrak ] [ fluffypony ] [ kanzure ] [ nephyrin` ] [ spinza ] | 21:11 | |
| [ c0rw1n ] [ fn2187 ] [ kaptah ] [ nickler ] [ Starduster ] | 21:11 | |
| -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 266 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 265 normal] | 21:11 | |
| -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 | 21:11 | |
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| --- Log closed Fri Feb 12 00:00:30 2016 | ||
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