2016-02-19.log

--- Log opened Fri Feb 19 00:00:37 2016
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koshiiAre Bitcoin contracts required to have a deterministic result? (As Ethereum's are)00:59
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nshwhat's the alternative?01:05
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koshiinsh: That they are not (due to not being validated?)01:20
koshiinsh: This might be a fundamental misunderstanding though; that's why i'm asking.01:20
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gwillenkoshii: yes, it's impossible in the script to write a contract that would have a nondeterministic result, because a block is only valid if all transactions in it are valid, and if you could write a transaction whose validity was nondeterministic, you'd have a nondeterministicly-valid block, which would cause all sorts of shenanigans01:45
gwillenlike, random chain forks on different nodes01:46
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koshiiYeah right, that makes sense01:58
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wumpusright, the consensus code must have the same output given the same input on all nodes, otherwise different nodes will end up stuck or even on different forks. This is one of bitcoin's harder problems.02:05
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koshiiI have to correct something I said earlier. Upon some reading, apparently it's impossible in the script to write a contract that would have a nondeterministic result, because a block is only valid if all transactions in it are valid, and if you could write a transaction whose validity was nondeterministic, you'd have a nondeterministicly-valid block, which would cause all sorts of shenanigans.02:08
koshiiI will correct using your exact words if you don't mind, as above. I gave someone bad info earlier.02:08
koshiiCan I quote your IRC name gwillen?02:09
gwillenkoshii: absolutely, yeah, thanks for asking02:09
koshiiThanks again.02:09
gwillennp!02:10
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kanzurephantomcircuit: yea i have been meaning to ban him from the mailing list06:08
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kanzurei keep forgetting06:08
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waxwingnick szabo tweets this eprint.iacr.org/2015/464.pdf  and calls it a 'great survey'. am i alone in thinking the comparison it makes between PoW and PoS is mostly nonsense?08:26
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bsm1175321waxwing: I'd agree with that.08:30
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fluffyponywaxwing: agreed, that survey is mostly rubbish09:44
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fluffyponyit's a pity this stopped getting updated: http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=a_massive_investigation_of_instamines_and_fastmines_for_the_top_alt_coins09:45
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trompthere shld be no need to investigate insta/fast-mines; ideally, they're prevented by a distribution curve that gives out under 1% in the first month or so09:48
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fluffyponytromp: the problem is that very few altcoins publish distribution curves, so effectively the author was doing just that, and then showing the conclusions that are drawn from that knowledge09:50
trompi wonder how many coins satisfy that slow start criterion09:52
fluffyponythe author lists 14 that are "acceptably mined", although it was last updated July 201409:54
trompbitcoin reached 1% in 4200 blocks, which should happen after 29.167 days09:55
trompactually, block 4200 arrived 42 days after genesis!09:57
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trompmaking bitcoin a certified slow-starter10:00
trompof course, with the slow bi-weekly difficulty retarget, it could easily have been otherwise...10:02
fluffyponyyeah - I guess the differentiator is that there was little-to-no interest in mining Bitcoin at that point, not so with a newly launched altcoin10:02
trompwhich is why new launches should not have maximum reward from the start10:03
trompbut precious few if any coins apply that lesson10:03
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mrkentquestion regarding thin/weak blocks I had based on this response: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/46gtjm/thin_blocks_early_results_messages_are_on_average/d05frnd13:02
mrkentDoesn't this (in a sense) alter consensus rules into the higher standard node relay requirements by incentivizing miners to follow those rules?13:04
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Taektromp: slow starting coins are often unsuccessful in the marketplace. Without a desperate scarcity, you don't trigger that panic-buy sensation that helps to kick-start the coin18:39
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