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| JackH | wizards - I am doing a speach on the non-anonymity of Bitcoin at an event. Any tips on what I should focus on in regards to why its not as anonymous as people seem to think ? | 01:44 |
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| rhett | JackH: silk road I, silk road II, that hacker news post today about how bitcon is not as anonymous as people seem to think? | 01:46 |
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| JackH | well, I want to come at it from a technological point of view | 01:47 |
| JackH | I dont like or feel comfortable quoting various news outlets | 01:47 |
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| nsh | .wik Pollard-Brent method | 02:20 |
| yoleaux | "Pollard's rho algorithm is a special-purpose integer factorization algorithm. It was invented by John Pollard in 1975. It is particularly effective for a composite number having a small prime factor." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollard's_rho_algorithm | 02:20 |
| nsh | Richard P. Brent (1980) – An Improved Monte Carlo Factorization Algorithm - http://maths-people.anu.edu.au/~brent/pd/rpb051i.pdf | 02:21 |
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| stonecoldpat1 | JackH: "A Fistful of Bitcoins: Characterizing Payments Among Men with No Names" is always a good start on why its not that anonymous | 02:47 |
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| waxwing | stonecoldpat: JackH meiklejohn's paper is good, but it seems today everyone has concluded that "bitcoin is perfectly traceable" which is so much of an oversimplification that it's just as wrong as the earlier erroneous "bitcoin is anonymous" that people used to think. | 04:16 |
| JackH | exactly waxwing | 04:17 |
| JackH | I need a middle ground, that talks both point of views | 04:18 |
| fluffypony | It's a tough one | 04:18 |
| waxwing | the medium article from today is a good example: it just says "oh, look at all this wallet explorer/clustering stuff, you're screwed" neglecting to mention that coinjoin transactions break it. | 04:19 |
| fluffypony | Cryptographically speaking it's "perfectly traceable", but practically speaking there's all sorts of issues with actually tracing things, the lack of metadata primarily | 04:19 |
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| waxwing | of course there are other tracing mechanims than pure blockchain linking. | 04:19 |
| fluffypony | But given perfect metadata then all non-coinjoin transactions are "perfectly traceable" | 04:20 |
| waxwing | fluffypony: it's not perfectly traceable at the core because the linkages are many-many. | 04:20 |
| waxwing | fluffypony: you never know if any 2+ -> 2+ transaction is coinjoin or not. | 04:20 |
| waxwing | even non equal amounts could be | 04:20 |
| JackH | thing is people are actively now asking how much more transparent Bitcoin is, vs the Panama setup | 04:20 |
| nsh | coinjoin is information-theoretically lossy | 04:20 |
| nsh | address non-reuse and tumbling, etc. is complexity-theoretically difficult to trace | 04:21 |
| waxwing | hsh if coinjoin is, then bitcoin is. because coinjoin is not an add-on. | 04:21 |
| JackH | they want to hear: Yes it is more transparent and it will prevent money laundry etc etc | 04:21 |
| nsh | it's possible to measure both | 04:21 |
| nsh | but there's not enough scholarship yet | 04:21 |
| JackH | I am talking this week at a large company | 04:21 |
| JackH | so if we have anything I can digest it would be awesome | 04:21 |
| nsh | also there are probably like a dozen different kinds of linkage outwith the blockchain, depending on who the adversary is and their level of access to service use and network traffic metadata | 04:22 |
| fluffypony | I guess the question is: if you had access to deposit/withdrawal data from every major exchange, legitimately or not, how much would you not know? | 04:22 |
| waxwing | the point i think people always miss or glide over is, because bitcoins don't exist, there is no objective marking of linkages within a single transaction. | 04:22 |
| waxwing | in other words, it's not just a question of being sufficiently clever. | 04:23 |
| fluffypony | nsh has a good point - an attackers capabilities play a huge part in what is revealed | 04:24 |
| fluffypony | Or revealable | 04:24 |
| waxwing | fluffypony: well, if you have access to all data from exchanges, the "fantastic" shapeshift is suddenly not so fantastic :) | 04:24 |
| nsh | always anonymity level vs. modelled adv. preferable to attempting to measure anonymity level averaged across everyone | 04:24 |
| JackH | how would this scenario look, if Bitcoin was worldwide consumed? | 04:25 |
| nsh | almost everyone doesn't care, for a start | 04:25 |
| JackH | no exchanges, just all pure BTC | 04:25 |
| fluffypony | waxwing: I've always assumed they're logging everything anyway ;) | 04:25 |
| JackH | can someone find me/you and what we hold/spend? | 04:25 |
| nsh | and the ones that do care differ greatly in access and ability and resources | 04:25 |
| waxwing | nsh: sorry for calling you hsh, there was a speck of dirt on my screen :) | 04:25 |
| nsh | hehe, np :) | 04:25 |
| nsh | i'll use that in court | 04:25 |
| fluffypony | JackH: in a pure BTC environment your opsec is irrelevant, the opsec of the people you deal with becomes paramount | 04:25 |
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| fluffypony | And therein lies the problem - not blockchain traceability, but the fact that blockchain traceability might allow someone you've dealt with to compromise you | 04:26 |
| waxwing | the same comment could be made about e2e encryption | 04:27 |
| fluffypony | Well the difference is that e2e typically doesn't leave a permanent, indelible record | 04:27 |
| fluffypony | You have to catch it in the act, so to speak | 04:27 |
| fluffypony | The Bitcoin blockchain is like a sudoku puzzle - an attacker keeps filling in the blanks till they can make educated guesses about the remaining blanks | 04:29 |
| waxwing | i don't know; if your claim is that there isn't proof you paid A instead of B or C, I'm not sure that A's later failures (to do what exactly?) change that. | 04:29 |
| fluffypony | waxwing: I'm specifically talking about non-coinjoin, "typical" transactions | 04:30 |
| JackH | it sounds as if I can present this in either way | 04:30 |
| JackH | its transparent/its not transparent | 04:31 |
| fluffypony | Yup | 04:31 |
| fluffypony | JackH: they way I normally present it is "it's private enough...until it isn't" | 04:31 |
| waxwing | JackH: i liked this quote from kaminsky: "bitcoin has terrible anonymity, but it has tremendous deniability". not that he's necessarily the expert, but it captures something. | 04:32 |
| JackH | deniability yes, that is a good one to use | 04:32 |
| fluffypony | And the opsec of the people you deal with is the thing that can compromise that deniability | 04:33 |
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| waxwing | i think we're thinking about different things: you're thinking of the pseudonym - IRL identity linkage (or lack of), whereas i'm thinking about on-blockchain linkages (ie within-pseudonym realm) | 04:35 |
| waxwing | i think your point is very valid, about the former. | 04:36 |
| fluffypony | Yes - but on-blockchain linkages are useless without external data, right? | 04:36 |
| waxwing | well, but with the external data at one point - one pseudonym - then if the on-blockchain linkages don't work, it's less "contagious". | 04:37 |
| fluffypony | Yes - which is why a hypothetical future with mandatory coinjoin would break all the linkages | 04:38 |
| fluffypony | So even if X is compromised it doesn't matter, there's no snowball beyond that | 04:38 |
| waxwing | fluffypony: but all transactions might be coinjoin (if >2 in, out) as mentioned. | 04:39 |
| waxwing | alright, that's a stretch :) | 04:39 |
| waxwing | more or less, i agree | 04:39 |
| fluffypony | Heh heh :) | 04:39 |
| waxwing | all the sudoku stuff is based on an assumption though. i feel people lose at the first hurdle because they forget that. | 04:40 |
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| fluffypony | When I play sudoku I do a LOT of guessing, most of my boards are covered in pencil scribbles, so I guess it's a good analogy from that perspective | 04:41 |
| waxwing | there aren't realistic scenarios for non-equal coinjoins today. but there could be, because the core protocol allows it in principle. | 04:41 |
| fluffypony | "We THINK that the closure on this address links it to this wallet", rather than a more definite linkage | 04:41 |
| waxwing | well, it's a pretty good analogy. one of the interesting things is that sudoku algos for linkages blows up combinatorially. | 04:42 |
| waxwing | so, if transactions could support 100 outputs, it could actually make blockchain analysis *computationally* difficult. bit of an impractical thought though :) | 04:42 |
| fluffypony | That's true | 04:42 |
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| waxwing | i guess it's technically exponential (power set). example here: https://github.com/AdamISZ/JMPrivacyAnalysis/blob/master/tumbler_privacy.md#jmsudoku-coinjoin-sudoku-for-jmtxs | 04:46 |
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| proslogion | yesterday i was looking at an example someone giving out coins randomly on the IRC channel, imagine, if you mix random public donation addresses, and private addresses of other people and mix with your own addresses and do a multi-output tx paying to all of them, and consider the coins lost to them as some form of laundering fees, without being able to pinpoint everyone else there would be great difficulty in track you down | 05:51 |
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| waxwing | proslogion: not sure i follow, really. wouldn't the obfuscation depend on giving away a large fraction? and also public donation addresses don't seem that ideal? | 06:01 |
| proslogion | waxwing: quite large a fraction, which is justifiable for criminal proceedings very often | 06:02 |
| proslogion | the way i see it, is that anonymity is more of an art than a science, because the fundamental question of expanidng your anonymity set requires more than science. Two guys and a dog can be perfectly indistinguishable from each other, but this poses certainly no challenge to the lousiest police anywhere | 06:03 |
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| jl2012 | OP_VERIF is invalid even when occuring in an unexecuted OP_IF branch. Where this rule is defined? | 06:14 |
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| jl2012 | I think I find the answer at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script/interpreter.cpp#L295 | 06:56 |
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| pistdov | anyone mess with open bazaar yet? | 08:46 |
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| kanzure | http://www.rootstock.io/blog/sidechains-drivechains-and-rsk-2-way-peg-design | 13:02 |
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| HoloIRCUser4 | Is there good source discussing novel techniques for injecting "property" into block chains? | 13:52 |
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| wallet42 | Anyone read the WhatsApp/Open whisper Systems whitepaper? It uses curve25519 and sha256, hmac, aes256-gcm. | 16:49 |
| nsh | link? | 16:49 |
| wallet42 | I wonder if some parts of it could be reused in autehntication for bitcoin p2p connections with spv clients | 16:49 |
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| wallet42 | https://whispersystems.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/ | 16:50 |
| wallet42 | There is a pdf at the end | 16:50 |
| nsh | ( https://www.whatsapp.com/security/WhatsApp-Security-Whitepaper.pdf ) | 16:51 |
| nsh | ty | 16:51 |
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| nsh | hm | 16:53 |
| nsh | i worry that the synchronisation of one-time keys queues between client and servers affords opportunity for deanonymisation attacks | 16:56 |
| nsh | but otoh a bunch of much simpler things whatsapp may be doing would be worse | 16:57 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-othe} Isn´t that the same already used in Signal etc? | 17:20 |
| TD-Linux | Open Whisper Systems is the company that developed Signal | 17:25 |
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| phantomcircuit | TD-Linux, indeed it's my understanding that OWS implemented the protocol for whatsapp | 17:40 |
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| MRL-Relay | {-shen} I think they both use this axolotl thing, which I also noticed seems to be in the new crypto.cat implementation | 18:18 |
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| bsm1175321 | So, let's say, hypothetically, you wanted to get some ideas in this space reviewed, in the academic sense. | 20:22 |
| bsm1175321 | What papers/whitepapers/drafts/blogs would you submit for peer review? | 20:22 |
| fluffypony | bsm1175321: submit to Ledger, that's your best bet right now | 20:22 |
| fluffypony | there's nothing else, really, that's offering any sort of formal process for submission | 20:23 |
| fluffypony | if there was you can bet I'd be submitting every altcoin whitepaper ever :-P | 20:23 |
| bsm1175321 | fluffypony: I'm considering the future of Ledger, and how to best contribute to it. | 20:23 |
| kanzure | you would probably just heckle people on irc until they review your work | 20:23 |
| kanzure | that's pretty much all there is to it | 20:23 |
| fluffypony | kanzure: or offer them money | 20:24 |
| bsm1175321 | I can heckle. | 20:24 |
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| bsm1175321 | Are you a coward? I don't see it on Ledger yet... | 20:24 |
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| fluffypony | it...? | 20:25 |
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| kanzure | peer review often isn't published at all. not sure what you're talking about now. | 20:25 |
| bsm1175321 | I have this dream of making peer review a kind of DAO... | 20:25 |
| liead | bsm1175321: get your systems handling real value. launch an altcoin. let those who can break it, short on an exchange and cash out btc. | 20:36 |
| bsm1175321 | I would prefer that wise people carefully read a paper that I had carefully written, before ignorant people lose money over my ideas. | 20:37 |
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| Taek | Lots of fundamentally broken altcoins move millions of dollars before someone takes advantage | 20:49 |
| fluffypony | +100000 | 20:49 |
| Taek | I just got my paper back from Ledger. Their criticisms were pretty good. Need to rewrite it, but I understand why | 20:50 |
| bsm1175321 | Glad to hear. Just had some discussions with Ledger, I hope to move this in a positive direction for all. | 20:50 |
| Taek | But that's also a problem. Formal academia has very high standards, which means progress is slow. | 20:51 |
| Taek | I'd like to have a parallel system that is perhaps not as correct or rigorous, but pumps ideas through faster | 20:51 |
| Taek | IMO both are necessary | 20:51 |
| fluffypony | Taek: otoh you don't have to have EVERY idea go through formal review | 20:52 |
| fluffypony | and, if you're small, you can adapt your implementation to meet revisions of the academia | 20:52 |
| bsm1175321 | Pumping ideas through faster in crypto-space means a poorly thought out coin which gets pumped, dumped, defrauded, and stolen. | 20:53 |
| bsm1175321 | Shit is hard and we shouldn't be ashamed of taking our time. | 20:53 |
| Taek | Depends. CT for example never made it through academia | 20:53 |
| Taek | From what I can tell, neither did the Sybil attack | 20:54 |
| bsm1175321 | There are rare exceptions where very wise people made stuff. But 99.9% of the time, the opposite is true, and the public who doesn't know any better and can't tell...gets fleeced. | 20:55 |
| bsm1175321 | The general public can't tell the difference. | 20:55 |
| bsm1175321 | It's up to us, the -wizards, to police each other. | 20:55 |
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| bsm1175321 | This is the purpose of peer review. We need to convince the general public to ignore anything and everything that hasn't been peer reviewed. (and in science, also reproduced) | 20:57 |
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| fluffypony | Taek: have you seen djb's talk on "The post-quantum Internet." ? | 20:58 |
| Taek | I have, don't remember it super well though | 20:59 |
| fluffypony | argh not that one, I mean "The first 10 years of Curve25519" | 20:59 |
| fluffypony | https://cr.yp.to/talks/2016.03.09/slides-djb-20160309-a4.pdf <- check from page 21 | 20:59 |
| fluffypony | it's hilarious | 20:59 |
| Taek | I wonder if software like operating systems should have as much review as academia | 20:59 |
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| Taek | It's so important, that level of rigor may be merited | 21:00 |
| bsm1175321 | More. Much more. Much, much, much, much more. | 21:00 |
| fluffypony | oof gtg, thanks for putting my Wednesday thinking cap on, bsm1175321 :) | 21:00 |
| Taek | Yet the average line of code in Linux had probably been seen by 2-3 eyes | 21:00 |
| Taek | Maybe the core portions are better | 21:01 |
| bsm1175321 | o/ fluffypony | 21:01 |
| bsm1175321 | Crypto is something else. We need to *ensure* as many eyes as possible. | 21:01 |
| bsm1175321 | So here's a challenge to you all: how do we get the diarrhea often called "whitepapers" into a journal, and get them reviewed? | 21:06 |
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| Taek | Ledger seems like a good start to me. But how do we minimize the amount of time wasted by total garbage? Require endorsements from professors? | 21:14 |
| Taek | At this stage probably not needed, I don't think ledger is currently struggling with volume overload | 21:15 |
| Taek | Maybe amiller has thoughts | 21:15 |
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| fluffypony | I would love to see a few garbage papers reviewed in Ledger and appropriately destroyed | 23:40 |
| fluffypony | I don't mean the purely nonsensical like that altcoin that had "stargates" for anonymity | 23:40 |
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| fluffypony | But stuff that is based on a misunderstanding of cryptography / attacks / game theory, or that misuses statistical likelihood to present risk | 23:42 |
| fluffypony | I guess the real question is: does Ledger need the author's permission to review it? (I think not) | 23:43 |
| fluffypony | Also, do they need the author's permission to publish said review? | 23:43 |
| fluffypony | And, lastly, who is willing to motive and/or pay the reviewers for what is a colossal waste of time that only serves one purpose, to help educate and protect gullible end-users? | 23:44 |
| fluffypony | All these and more will be answered in the next episode of "crypto fun with bsm1175321" | 23:45 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Apr 06 00:00:20 2016 | ||
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