2016-05-30.log

--- Log opened Mon May 30 00:00:15 2016
-!- c0rw1n_ [~c0rw1n@124.213-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]00:11
-!- azariah [~azariah@Tricholoma.Update.UU.SE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]00:12
-!- azariah [~azariah@Tricholoma.Update.UU.SE] has joined #bitcoin-wizards00:12
-!- p15 [~p15@114.243.158.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards00:27
-!- p15 [~p15@114.243.158.148] has quit [Client Quit]00:28
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]00:29
-!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ytmmgzbimhljchqg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards00:55
-!- RedEmerald_ [~RedEmeral@c-73-231-129-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]01:01
-!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-73-231-129-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:04
-!- nabu [~nabu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nabu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]01:08
-!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]01:08
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]01:15
-!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]01:15
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:17
-!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:19
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:20
-!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:28
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:29
-!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards01:45
-!- r0ach [~r0ach@107-217-214-192.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]01:49
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]02:05
-!- p15 [~p15@136.91.145.64.unassigned.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:07
-!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]02:08
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@220pc230.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:12
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@220pc230.sshunet.nl] has quit [Changing host]02:12
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:12
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has quit [Quit: Leaving]02:25
-!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:35
-!- MaxSan_ [~one@46.19.137.116] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:42
-!- p15 [~p15@136.91.145.64.unassigned.bringover.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]02:46
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@213-245-86-6.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards02:58
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@213-245-86-6.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit]02:58
-!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards03:06
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]03:23
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]03:48
-!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004D2B6582003CAFD05B8A886580.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards03:51
-!- bildramer [~bildramer@p2003004D2B658200AC9BCCA14258DFA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services]03:52
-!- bildramer1 is now known as bildramer03:52
-!- JackH [~Jack@79-73-185-113.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]03:58
-!- mark-use [~mark-use@79.98.222.176] has joined #bitcoin-wizards04:05
-!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards04:05
-!- mark-use [~mark-use@79.98.222.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving]04:09
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@213-245-86-6.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards04:20
-!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@213-245-86-6.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: laurentmt]04:42
-!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:00
-!- bustd_soket [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-mgmxcottmwptuxvo] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]05:12
-!- bustd_soket [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-mseehmuykjnwmrfu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:17
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:22
-!- r0ach [~r0ach@107-217-214-192.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:35
-!- null_rad- is now known as null_radx05:43
-!- null_radx is now known as null_radix05:43
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:54
-!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]05:56
-!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards05:57
-!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:19
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:20
-!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]06:20
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]06:27
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@209-6-39-253.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:30
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:31
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]06:37
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:45
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:57
-!- domwoe_ [~domwoe@vpn-global-dhcp1-216.ethz.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards06:59
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@209-6-39-253.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]07:01
-!- domwoe_ [~domwoe@vpn-global-dhcp1-216.ethz.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]07:13
-!- tucenaber [~tucenaber@unaffiliated/tucenaber] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]07:13
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]07:17
-!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-122-14-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:29
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:30
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:34
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:38
kanzurehttps://media.ccc.de/v/31c3_-_6344_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201412281400_-_security_analysis_of_estonia_s_internet_voting_system_-_j_alex_halderman07:48
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@209-6-39-253.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:53
-!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]07:59
-!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards07:59
-!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.186.80.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]08:05
-!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:14
-!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]08:15
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has quit [Quit: Leaving]08:26
-!- rubensayshi [~ruben@c89225.upc-c.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:30
-!- MaxSan_ [~one@46.19.137.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]08:37
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]08:48
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]08:53
-!- MaxSan_ [~one@www17.redstation.co.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards08:54
-!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-172-251-161-231.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:02
-!- murch [~murch@p4FE39931.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:05
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards09:13
waxwingkanzure: i pointed people at that a few times. it's a great talk :)09:25
-!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-172-251-161-231.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]09:38
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]09:46
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]09:55
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:01
-!- nuke1989 [~nuke@176.92.77.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:05
-!- nabu [~nabu@192.40.88.14] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:05
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:08
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte]10:08
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:12
-!- jtimon [~quassel@4.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]10:28
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]10:33
-!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:34
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:34
-!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]10:36
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has quit [Client Quit]10:36
-!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@189.221.38.150.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:39
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:39
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:45
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:50
-!- roman__ [~quassel@2a01:cb1d:4a4:2e00:e16d:206c:a754:f1e5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards10:51
nehahttps://www.w3.org/2016/04/blockchain-workshop/10:58
nehaplease consider attending (requires submitting a form or position paper) i would love to see more btc representation10:58
nehano guarantees on outcomes but the w3c is pretty good at corralling the browser vendors, which means something interesting could happen down the line.10:59
kanzurestill not sure what to tell them to do. "no wallet stuff" is a strange constraint (because of some other payments group). not sure anything else belongs in a fat browser client...11:03
nehai don't think there's a "no wallet stuff" constraint. where do you see that?11:06
fluffyponyomg it's a neha11:06
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]11:06
nehait says "Payments: this topic is already thriving, and risks dominating the workshop, so we prefer discussions of payment only when they are yoked with other topics (e.g. browser-based wallets for handling both payments and identity)"11:06
fluffyponyneha: I'm taking a couple of months from travelling after the trip I'm currently on, otherwise I would11:07
kanzureneha: in the "out of scope" section11:07
fluffyponyconference sounds fantastic11:07
kanzurei see.11:07
nehahi fluffypony!11:07
fluffyponys/conference/workshop11:07
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:08
nehamy current fav topic for the workshop is browser-based wallets11:08
fluffyponythose are horrible and unsafe and no person in their right mind would operate one11:09
* fluffypony whistles innocently11:09
* fluffypony stares into the corner11:09
kanzureagreed...11:09
kanzure"how to encourage a million terrible javascript browser extension wallets" :)11:09
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]11:10
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]11:13
nehamy thoughts are let's have the browser vendors implement them once (per browser) so that doesn't happen!11:17
fluffyponysure11:17
nehathere's an interesting gap between web payments and web crypto11:17
neha(working groups)11:17
fluffyponythe problem is that you end up with disparate systems11:17
fluffyponywhat if the browser just knew how to handle a Payment object11:18
fluffyponyand your system had a bunch of installed providers that could service that Payment object11:18
neha\me is happy we are having this conversation11:19
nehaoops11:19
* neha is happy we are having this conversation11:19
nehawhat is the difference between that and what i said?11:19
fluffyponynothing, I was just thinking about "once per browser" vs. "once per system"11:20
nehai suppose browser vendor implementing API vs. implementing wallet11:20
-!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@p2003004D2B658200B5602A90995DC83D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:28
-!- bildramer [~bildramer@p2003004D2B6582003CAFD05B8A886580.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services]11:28
-!- bildramer1 is now known as bildramer11:28
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@209-6-39-253.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]11:45
-!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:48
-!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]11:53
-!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:54
-!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards11:59
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@50.245.35.84] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:00
-!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]12:02
-!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:02
-!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]12:05
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:05
-!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:15
-!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]12:17
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]12:29
-!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:36
-!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]12:38
-!- molly [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:42
-!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]12:44
-!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards12:50
-!- molly [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]12:53
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:05
-!- roman__ [~quassel@2a01:cb1d:4a4:2e00:e16d:206c:a754:f1e5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]13:11
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@50.245.35.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]13:17
kanzure.title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1180109313:18
yoleauxSecurity challenges for the Qubes build process | Hacker News13:18
kanzurehttp://blog.invisiblethings.org/2016/05/30/build-security.html13:18
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@50.245.35.84] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:18
-!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:22
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@50.245.35.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]13:23
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]13:26
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-98c5e455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]13:27
-!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:28
-!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]13:30
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@50.245.35.84] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:30
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:31
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]13:34
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]13:44
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards13:49
-!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]14:03
-!- murch [~murch@p4FE39931.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]14:10
-!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)]14:27
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards14:35
-!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-25-137.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]14:41
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]14:51
-!- jarret [~jarret@162.216.46.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]14:51
-!- slackircbridge [~slackircb@45.55.41.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]14:58
-!- slackircbridge [~slackircb@45.55.41.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:00
-!- ozanyurt_ [~ozanyurt@78.185.201.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:12
-!- ozanyurt_ [~ozanyurt@78.185.201.206] has quit [Client Quit]15:14
-!- ozanyurt_ [~ozanyurt@78.185.201.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:14
-!- ozanyurt [~textual@78.185.201.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]15:15
-!- ozanyurt_ is now known as ozanyurt15:19
-!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving]15:31
-!- jarret [~jarret@162.216.46.179] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:41
bsm117532I've got some interesting numbers for you kids...15:44
bsm117532Taking the Bitcoin orphan rate (which is 1.16 per day, averaged over the last two years) and its target block time of 10 minutes, it's possible to calculate the minimum block time, given the network topology of mining bitcoin nodes.15:46
bsm117532Essentially, the orphan rate tells you the "size" of the network.15:46
-!- jarret [~jarret@162.216.46.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]15:46
bsm117532in units of the block time.15:46
-!- jarret [~jarret@72.53.24.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:46
bsm117532This "size" is 4.8s (as a parameter in an equation I'll have to show later).15:47
bsm117532The resultant minimum block time, allowing blocks to have multiple parents, is 11.6s.15:47
bsm117532This is about a factor of 10 slower than other p2p networks (like bittorrent) I suspect due to mining nodes being slow to relay (great firewall or operating over Tor/I2P).15:47
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]15:49
-!- jarret [~jarret@72.53.24.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]15:51
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@50.245.35.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]15:53
-!- slackircbridge [~slackircb@45.55.41.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]15:53
bsm117532The resultant block "chain" (braid) has on average 2 beads per cohort (=block).15:54
-!- slackircbridge [~slackircb@45.55.41.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:54
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards15:58
r0achI was browsing scamcoins and think I discovered the biggest Rube Goldberg implementation so far (NEM coin):16:04
r0ach"Supernodes are expected to be high performance and reliable nodes. They are regularly tested on their bandwidth, chain height, chain parts, computing power, version, ping, and responsiveness to make sure that they are performing to high standards."16:04
katudoes nem really have an implementation?16:05
r0achI don't know, just stumbled upon that a second ago...16:05
katuafaik it was half bollocks (along with storj and maid), and half not even bothering to release working implementation16:05
katuanyhow, sort of wish somebody actually did try to instantiate something tackling the problem of self-reported rank consensus16:06
katuit is doable to a degree imo, at least with weak subjective assumptions similiar to NaS16:06
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:09
-!- slackircbridge [~slackircb@45.55.41.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]16:11
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Excess Flood]16:12
-!- slackircbridge [~slackircb@45.55.41.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:12
-!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has quit [Quit: Leaving]16:16
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:20
-!- roman__ [~quassel@2a01:cb1d:4a4:2e00:bdea:3fb0:ac45:504f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:25
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-3ecde455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:25
-!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]16:26
-!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:27
-!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:37
-!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]16:38
-!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards16:57
-!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]16:58
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-3ecde455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]17:03
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@209-6-39-253.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:06
-!- Piper-Off [~P4rtyV4n@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::d0:b001] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]17:07
-!- coup_de_shitlord [~coup_de_s@irc.tox.im] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]17:07
-!- Guest14615 [~s1w@2400:6180:0:d0::4e1:5001] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]17:08
-!- zwischenzug2 [~zwischenz@189.221.38.150.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:08
-!- coup_de_shitlord [~coup_de_s@irc.tox.im] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:09
-!- s1w [~s1w@2400:6180:0:d0::4e1:5001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:09
-!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]17:09
-!- s1w is now known as Guest5837017:09
-!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:09
-!- Piper-Off [~P4rtyV4n@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::d0:b001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:09
-!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@189.221.38.150.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]17:12
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]17:13
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:16
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]17:20
-!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ytmmgzbimhljchqg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]17:21
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:24
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-3ecde455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:27
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:27
-!- N0S4A2 [~weechat@216-243-38-141.users.condointernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:39
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-3ecde455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]17:42
-!- CodeArtix [~ubuntu@52.27.118.248] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:50
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-3ecde455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards17:52
-!- ozanyurt [~ozanyurt@78.185.201.206] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]17:55
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-3ecde455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]17:57
-!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]18:00
-!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:01
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]18:19
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:19
-!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-68-62-95-247.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:21
-!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]18:26
-!- roman__ [~quassel@2a01:cb1d:4a4:2e00:bdea:3fb0:ac45:504f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]18:40
-!- Noldorin_ [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:44
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]18:44
-!- Noldorin_ [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]18:47
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]18:51
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards18:53
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]18:54
-!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]18:56
-!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving]18:58
bsm117532Updated analysis of difficulty and retargeting for blockchains and braids: https://rawgit.com/mcelrath/braidcoin/master/Braid%2BExamples.html19:01
bsm117532New stuff at the bottom.19:01
-!- BonyM [~BonyM-I@ua-83-227-211-4.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]19:05
bsm117532This will be in my upcoming paper "Braiding the Blockchain" which will be submitted to Ledger, but comments welcome here before the paper appears...19:05
-!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:07
smoothbsm117532: how do you know the bitcoin orphan rate? can't some of them just die without being reported?19:10
* bsm117532 awaits with trepidation a new era of scamcoins using the Lambert W function for blahblahblah...19:10
bsm117532smooth: I got it from blockchain.info19:10
-!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]19:10
bsm117532I averaged this: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks19:10
smoothi guess it is a lower bound19:11
bsm117532You think there are orphaned blocks that Blockchain.info never saw?19:11
smoothdo you have a sensitivity analysis of your results19:11
bsm117532Not yet, but I might make one for the paper.  What are you interested in?19:11
smoothits certainly possible there are blocks they never saw19:11
smoothhow important is that you know the true orphan rate, since you don't19:12
bsm117532Well if you're interested in using those numbers in a retarget algorithm, as I showed at the bottom, the sensitivity is easy to calculate from the analytic formulas.19:13
-!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]19:13
-!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]19:14
-!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:14
bsm117532In a braid there would be no reason to not publish a block -- you'd still get rewards for it.  In Bitcoin I can see that orphans might get dumped or not relayed.19:14
smoothoh i didn't click your link, i was just was reading your comments here. Thanks19:14
bsm117532Yeah click the link.  Lots of meat in there.  :-)19:14
smoothin bitcoin the standard algorithm is to not relay them19:14
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:14
bsm117532But you won't know they're an orphan until several blocks later...how can it choose to not relay?19:15
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:15
smoothonly first seen is relayed19:15
smoothnow if a later seen block becomes part of a longer chain then both will be relayed by that node, but some fraction of the time that wont happen19:16
bsm117532That doesn't make sense.19:16
smoothIf a node receive A then B at the same height, it will only relay A19:16
bsm117532That's a bizarre weirdness right there.  What's the justification for that?19:17
-!- p15 [~p15@159.91.145.64.unassigned.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:17
smooththere is one, but i dont remember it19:17
-!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]19:17
bsm117532If I'm a miner, I want to receive both, so I can choose to mine on the one with the lower hash (I thought)...19:18
smooththere's not particular reason to favor the lower hash, although conventions like that have been proposed19:19
bsm117532The rule you cite explicitly favors miners with better connectivity.19:19
smooththe selfish mining paper said the same, but there is indeed some tradeoff, i just dont remember it19:21
smoothworld is full of those annoying things19:21
-!- p15 [~p15@159.91.145.64.unassigned.bringover.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards []19:21
bsm117532This braid business explicitly kills the selfish mining attack, by delaying rewards until well after a cohort has formed.19:21
bsm117532The orphan race is a design flaw and is not necessary.19:22
-!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]19:23
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:24
smoothbraids are complicated. design flaw is a bit extreme. it might be necessary if you want a simple algorithm19:25
bsm117532smooth: Yeah they are complicated.  But I did all the work for you.  :-P19:27
-!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:27
bsm117532My cohort-finding algorithm is only about 15 lines in python, and that's the meat of it.  A retarget algorithm is presented in the formulas at the above link.  Again only a couple of lines.19:27
bsm117532Took me 5 or 6 tries to get that algorithm right though...19:28
-!- alpalp [~allen@104-54-235-28.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:35
-!- alpalp [~allen@104-54-235-28.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host]19:35
-!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards19:35
smoothim pulling for you, i just hope you can get buy-in19:40
smooththere's a lot of inertia and competing interests19:41
bsm117532Heh, thanks.  I've gotten what I wanted out of this, at this point.  I'll polish up my draft this week and submit it.19:41
-!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]19:41
smoothyou'll get a nice paper out of it for sure, but in terms of adoption and improving bitcoin, well...19:41
bsm117532I don't know really where is best to try to put this into production.  I've thought about modifying p2pool, or making a sidechain and add it to the Elements project, or convincing the Zcash folks... dunno.19:42
bsm117532Suggestions welcome...19:42
smoothbe happy with the paper :)19:42
bsm117532I am.  :-)19:43
bsm117532I've also begun to think about this as step 0 on the path to healing network splits: https://github.com/zcash/zcash/issues/97519:43
smoothdo you think asset creation proportional to difficulty can possibly work?19:49
smoothit seems problematic in having no understanding of what the supply is going to be19:49
bsm117532It's the only thing that works.  Anything else rewards early miners at the expense of later miners (who invest more energy) and is a scam.19:50
bsm117532Bitcoin is a direct representation of asset expenditure (hashcash) with added transactional properties.19:51
smoothimproving efficiency means later miner invest less energy19:51
bsm117532It's not a perfect representation of asset expenditure, but it's the only cryptographic one I know of.  Every other form of "asset" in computers is actually an IOU that through <insert magic> gets tied to real-world assets.19:52
smoothif you said creation proportional to energy...that would be different, but seems unimplementable19:52
smoothactaully satoshi retargeting given non-cartel mining means that asset issuance is equal value to resources consumed19:52
bsm117532The retargeting gives a time-based schedule.  It's only an accident if it's proportional to energy expended.19:53
smoothyes but the value of tokens is another independent variable19:54
smoothif mining is even reasonably competitive then value in = value out19:55
bsm117532Anyway...you asked about allocation proportional to difficulty.  This is required to decide how to merge competing chains which do not contain double spends.19:55
smoothyeah19:55
smoothunless you can rescale it somehow19:55
bsm117532The row of a database has zero value.  PoW has value.19:55
bsm117532Yes, if you chose some schedule for coin allocation, you'd have to recompute everything in order to merge a network split.19:56
smoothi think in your split case you are assuming the tokens on both sides must have the same value19:57
-!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]19:57
bsm117532Well you have to compare something in order to merge.  The one cryptographically representable value that can be decided, in the absence of communication between the chains, is the difficulty itself.19:57
smoothyou can compare time19:58
bsm117532Nope.  Clocks on one side of the split can't be compared to the other.19:58
bsm117532You'll give me a great timewarp net split attack...19:58
smoothif you are igoring time altogether then maybe but otherwise if you are merging them you are imposing some time reference, if only for retargeting going forwarrd19:59
bsm117532So, the notion of a "cohort" in the above worksheet is a time reference which all participants in the network agree upon.  It's where you define the UTXO set.20:00
bsm117532In network protocols we desire to remove time altogether.  Assumptions about time find ways of failing, or being gamed.20:01
smoothyes i agree with your statements if time is removed altogether20:01
bsm117532I'd say that's outside my scope of analyzing the graph structure of the braid.20:02
bsm117532I've started talking with zokoo about merging a long-running net split, but that's a different ball of yarn.20:02
bsm117532Though, I'd like net splits to be resolved in exactly the same way as orphans/uncles: quickly, fairly, and robustly.20:03
bsm117532Like a git merge...20:03
smooththat was mostly what i was talking about, and considering your comment on the issue about not having a cutoff between "short" and "long"20:03
-!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Quit: Leaving]20:04
smoothi do think that proportional to difficulty makes a lot of sense but it is odd from the perspective of how we think about bitcoin now, because it isn't clear20:05
smoothwhat issuance you received until much later20:05
smoothwhich i guess is what your braids mechanism does (iirc from the earlier writeup i saw)20:05
bsm117532It requires more work.  I think rewards proportional to difficulty is a requirement, but I worry about resolving chains of dependent spends, which becomes a double-spend in the merge.20:06
smoothso no one really knows what they own?20:06
bsm117532This line of thought seems to move transaction conflicts to be forks, rather than forks being defined by blocks.20:06
bsm117532smooth: Why do you say that?  I would own exactly sum(difficulty) of what I've mined.20:07
smoothso issuance is no longer time-controlled?20:07
bsm117532That you mine 10,000 times more because you have a hydroelectric plant...20:07
bsm117532smooth: correct.  (with difficulty-proportional rewards)20:07
bsm117532It makes it more like traditional mining (of gold/coal/etc)20:08
smoothis that in your braids proposal?20:08
smoothif so that makes the whole will-bitcoin-ever-do-this question a lot easier :)20:08
bsm117532I'm not sure.  I think I can remove it actually.  It's something I put in my draft a long time ago, but later realized I can simplify.20:09
smoothok gtg. i'll read your paper20:09
-!- BonyM [~BonyM-I@ua-83-227-211-4.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:32
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-d5cce455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:32
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-d5cce455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]20:41
-!- domwoe [~domwoe@209-6-39-253.c3-0.smr-ubr2.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]20:47
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]20:51
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards20:53
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-d5cce455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:06
-!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:06
-!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@2607:ff48:aa81:800::a15f:1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]21:09
-!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@155.94.209.39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:11
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]21:27
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]21:27
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:29
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]21:48
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards21:50
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]22:17
-!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards22:18
-!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host]22:18
-!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards22:18
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards22:19
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards22:37
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-d5cce455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]22:39
-!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-122-14-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]22:39
-!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.200.154.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards22:48
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]22:53
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]23:09
-!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards23:11
-!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-odvfewbbjkucatak] has joined #bitcoin-wizards23:13
-!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards23:34
-!- nuke1989 [~nuke@176.92.77.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]23:35
-!- HastaJun [~10339A764@c-d5cce455.02-226-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards23:46
--- Log closed Tue May 31 00:00:16 2016

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!