| --- Log opened Sun Jun 12 00:00:10 2016 | ||
| --- Day changed Sun Jun 12 2016 | ||
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| maaku | "if you are willing to give up SPV" -- you've entered into fantasy land | 00:04 |
|---|---|---|
| Taek | that bad? I was under the impression that SPV is not even that prevalient, most clients depend on a central server | 00:08 |
| Taek | I'd rather point my phone to my box at home than have it do SPV, and I don't think most people care very much | 00:08 |
| Taek | I also think there are probably clever ways to restore SPV, especially if we get decent snarks in the near future | 00:11 |
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| maaku | Almost nobody uses bitcoind as their wallet. It is not even officially recommended. | 00:25 |
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| Taek | really? I use bitcoind - why is it not recommended? | 00:26 |
| maaku | Now no one really does true SPV either, but that's our failing as developers. It is the obvious goal to achieve: hardware SPV wallets. | 00:26 |
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| maaku | Taek if you scale a block chain like you're taking about there'd be no way you'd be runnin a daemon at home to point your wallet at. | 00:28 |
| maaku | We're kinda at that limit already. | 00:28 |
| Taek | you'd still have the blocksize restriction. Also, no need to look at data you don't understand | 00:28 |
| Taek | the advantage is that you get the majority chain's reorg defense - you have to pay higher fees to make it onto the chain, but you'd also have better defense | 00:29 |
| maaku | I frankly see no use case that benefits from having to parse through terabytes of data to find the things you care about. | 00:29 |
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| Taek | reorg security is a huge benefit. For example, Sia has something like 2000 GPUs mining on it, which is nice but doesn't come anywhere close to the level of defense enjoyed by Bitcoin | 00:30 |
| maaku | Force everyone to download everything and nobody will use it. | 00:32 |
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| Taek | that's the security model I'm familiar with for Bitcoin? You only get trustless security if you've got the whole chain. SPV doesn't tell you that the blocks are correct, and it doesn't tell you if there's a cartel that's withholding blocks in a way that prevents new miners from joining the network | 00:33 |
| Taek | snarks can get you correctness, but the only way to be sure that there isn't a cartel withholding the information needed to extend the chain is to have that information yourself | 00:33 |
| maaku | Taek: SPV tells you that there would be an economic cost to a block being incorrect. | 00:37 |
| maaku | That's the entire basis of bitcoin's security -- economic costs. | 00:38 |
| maaku | Miners should not be SPV because that undermines those economic arguments. But anyone else? it's perfectly acceptable and defensible to use SPV. | 00:38 |
| Taek | only if you can assume that an incorrect block would not end up in the longest chain. But if everyone (including the miners) is doing SPV, you lose that guarantee | 00:38 |
| Taek | from what we've seen in practice, miner's are comfortable doing SPV mining | 00:39 |
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| Taek | =/ | 00:39 |
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| vyvojar | Taek: agreed, i think the assumption "miners would not endanger their reputation" is deeply flawed | 00:54 |
| vyvojar | they wont do something *immediately* affecting their reputation, but as long it stays "hidden", anything will be fair game. | 00:54 |
| Taek | I think I was being somewhat unfair though, it's pretty likely that you'd have supernodes at universities and whatnot that were validating all transactions | 00:55 |
| Taek | but, at least personally, it's a lot more significant to be able to verify trustlessly that everything is valid. That removes all fears of collusion and backdoors, at least among the validators | 00:56 |
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| vyvojar | Taek: depends, how fast does news from checking-but-powerless spread? | 00:57 |
| vyvojar | is it enough to prevent doublespends? or to ruin reputation of pools doing spv? | 00:57 |
| Taek | depends on how concisely you can prove fraud | 00:57 |
| Taek | and also, what happens if a validating node goes rogue and hits the news about fraud, even if no fraud has occurred | 00:58 |
| Taek | you'd need a snark or a full validating node to be certain that no fraud had occurred | 00:58 |
| Taek | the best fraud proofs that I know of require you to still have all the data, because of the data witholding attack | 00:59 |
| vyvojar | i assume only the simple case, that is opportunistic attackers "riding" a net reorg | 01:00 |
| vyvojar | which is what we've observed in the wild thus far | 01:00 |
| Taek | in the simple case, an outright double spend, news would travel quickly because the fraud proof is fairly concise | 01:00 |
| vyvojar | situation could change dramatically though if true hash power markets are established | 01:02 |
| vyvojar | there already was/is one for altcoins iirc | 01:02 |
| vyvojar | "i really want to has for the current highest bidder, i really dont care about the network as such :)" | 01:03 |
| vyvojar | *hash | 01:03 |
| vyvojar | while the market/demand dynamic will stop outright temporary 51% buyers, it is still far more frightening than current pool situation. | 01:04 |
| vyvojar | ie a rather inflexible market and miners dont automatically jump on highest offer | 01:05 |
| Taek | Yeah, I'm worried about that too. If we assume a perfectly efficient market for hashrate, it'd be pretty trivial for someone to offer a 10% premium and then get 51% hashrate. But that's assuming miners are greedily selling to the highest bidder. I don't think that realistically this would happen for Bitcoin - the value would drop dramatically and the miners would lose everything if there was a 51% attack | 01:09 |
| Taek | and miner's seem to be at least aware enough to watch out for that | 01:09 |
| vyvojar | Taek: i am far less optimistic. current "altruism" is in place because significant chunk of miners (and especially pool owners) have a stake in bitcoin | 01:11 |
| vyvojar | Taek: but the moment miners who mine but dont hold bitcoin outnumber vested stake miners, it might coincide with ideal market emergence | 01:12 |
| vyvojar | again, this is what we've observed with altcoins. | 01:12 |
| Taek | altcoins are slightly different because when you wipe out an altcoin with a 51% attack most of the altcoin ecosystem is left intact - you've got more prey | 01:13 |
| Taek | but if you do that with Bitcoin, you've wiped out most of the revenue opportunity | 01:13 |
| vyvojar | yes, in that sense bitcoin is somewhat protected that none of its contenders seem to be going after its hashrate market. | 01:14 |
| vyvojar | so far | 01:14 |
| othe | well most use a different pow anyway, so they simply can´t... but they have to or some grumpy btc pool admin would just wipe them out before they get big anyway | 01:15 |
| vyvojar | othe: yes, its an inverse problem, but altcoin could also first build its market cap via different means (think for example PoS like ethereum) and then suddenly attempting to cannibalize btc market | 01:17 |
| vyvojar | provided that the cap is up to it, the hashrate market emergence could be rather fast and dramatic[1~ | 01:17 |
| vyvojar | by suddenly attempting i mean having PoW hardfork switch programmed in along the way | 01:18 |
| vyvojar | *bitcoin PoW | 01:18 |
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| Taek | that's an interesting attack but I also don't think it's very likely. You wouldn't want to try to cannibalize Bitcoin unless you had a pretty substantial advantage in terms of hashing incentive | 01:21 |
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| vyvojar | Taek: I imagine it could be worded something innocent, like "dont let those outdated bitcoin ASIC lay waste, mine $altcoin with it". But indeed it's far fetched unless some black swan happens, say, a true (state backed?) contender with serious capital backing which can pull off all sorts of interesting things Bitcoin can't. | 01:24 |
| vyvojar | (in te[4~rms of econ wars) | 01:25 |
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| katu | vyvojar: anything but the old equipment would be used if it's more profitable than bitcoin per ghash :) | 01:27 |
| vyvojar | katu: of course .. but not really. if it's more profitable, the point of break even shifted. at least part of obsolete machines (for bitcoin) would be used. this is assuming abrubt shift to bitcoin poW, it is extremely unlikely something like this would evolve steadily. | 01:29 |
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| Taek | The argument is that if it suddenly made sense for old machines, it would also make sense for new machines | 01:30 |
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| vyvojar | btw, >it'd be pretty trivial for someone to offer a 10% premium and then get 51% hashrate | 01:38 |
| vyvojar | depends on market depth. i'd argue it's rather unusual to offer mere 10% premium and bottom 50% of market depth. | 01:38 |
| Taek | In the altcoin ecosystem maybe. Would be interesting to see what would happen if a mining pool started doing increased payouts. Ghash.io is a pretty good example of miners deciding to leave the pool because they cared about the health of the ecosystem that they were mining | 01:39 |
| Taek | unless there was some other event I'm not aware of that caused the exodus | 01:39 |
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| vyvojar | would not other players start immediately placing higher ask price the moment they observe an no-matter-the-price buyer? | 01:41 |
| vyvojar | thats how rational market normally react. ideal hash market would be something like p2pool where each share is a contract paid on share delivery - a miner can always renege on established trade (and buyer gets refund). this allows the ask side to act very flexibly. | 01:43 |
| smooth | "value would drop dramatically and the miners would lose everything if there was a 51% attack" <= not really true there was a 51% attack (gambling site was attacked by ghash, allegedly via a rogue employee i think) | 01:44 |
| smooth | you see this assumption a lot, that as soon as some attack occurs the value will evaporate but i dont relaly believe it | 01:44 |
| smooth | it happens in alts that are fragile to begin with an an attack is an excuse for everyone who was looking for an exit anyway to dump and move on | 01:44 |
| smooth | but in bitcoin or anything with value, an attack would likely (and did) have limited effect | 01:45 |
| Taek | depends on the attack. If suddenly all the other pools stopped finding blocks, I think you'd see a pretty significant panic. If transactions stopped confirming regardless of fee, you'd also see a significant panic. | 01:45 |
| Taek | but you might be right, I may be overestimating the price response | 01:45 |
| smooth | sure, that's a wider sort of attak than "merely" a 51% attack | 01:45 |
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| vyvojar | smooth: imo the gist of it nobody cares preemptively, reaction happens post-facto. if 51% happened to defraud large btc exchange, i'm positive we'd see large confidence drop. | 01:46 |
| Taek | the exchange might try to cover it up. | 01:47 |
| vyvojar | but defrauding obscure gambling site didnt affect anyone, nobody cares preemptively (even if theres proof it happened) | 01:47 |
| smooth | we see large exchange hacks, not much price impact | 01:47 |
| smooth | i think a large percentage of bitcoin investors take a longer term view. if problems occur the default assumption is that they get fixed and bitcoin is still valuable | 01:48 |
| vyvojar | something like 51% attacks to commit fraud is rather fundamental attack, don't you think? | 01:48 |
| Taek | I'm definitely more on smooth's side with this one. My understanding of historical events is that security compromises, such as large forks due to SPV mining, have not had a large impact on the price | 01:49 |
| Taek | I would have expected that to be more significant, but it wasn't | 01:49 |
| smooth | vyvojar: it depends if the forward-looking expectation is for such attacks to become rampant or unrecoverable | 01:49 |
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| smooth | otherwise, everyone knows such attacks are possible, the fact that it occurs is not really new information | 01:49 |
| vyvojar | Taek: my point is that reaction is always adequate to action. the fraud would have to be significant enough to trigger panic. | 01:49 |
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| vyvojar | IMO the reason sophisticated attackers dont try this is that there is no suitable route to divert their ill gotten goods into | 01:50 |
| vyvojar | if they trigger panic and they still hold bitcoin it is dangerous pyrrhic victory | 01:51 |
| vyvojar | basically why PoS "work" in practice despite NaS (even though for these there is suitable exit route - bitcoin :) | 01:51 |
| smooth | not really there are plenty of markets to short and profit from price declines | 01:51 |
| smooth | but you have to be confident there will actually be price declines if you rip off an exchange, not clear at all to me | 01:52 |
| smooth | now if exchanges were public companies and you could short their stock, that might be a better route (assuming you don't get caught) | 01:53 |
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| vyvojar | smooth: the short market profit seems to be rather meager (not enough lenders) rather than direct theft from exchange, considering reversal through 51% | 01:54 |
| vyvojar | but i agree this is good vector for other attacks, especially for comparably trivial DoS ones | 01:55 |
| vyvojar | All in all, wild speculation about incentives. I wonder how a real economic analysis could be[C conducted, agent simulation? | 01:57 |
| katu | vyvojar: re DoS triggering panic, look at price & panic development when the 1MB bug (and subsequent chain fork) appeared | 02:00 |
| katu | smooth: indeed, shorting the exchange stock would effectively insure the heist | 02:01 |
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| da2ce7_mobile | hello. | 02:09 |
| da2ce7_mobile | What is the smallest cryptographic signature scheme? For sending over super restricted bandwidth like SMS. - Only needs 80 to 90 bits of security. | 02:10 |
| da2ce7_mobile | Is there any such standards? | 02:10 |
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| vyvojar | da2ce7_mobile: yes. also ask in ##crypto, your topic is unrelated to bitcoin. | 02:12 |
| sipa | BLS has a signature which is twice the security parameter | 02:13 |
| sipa | so 160-bit sigbature for 80-bit security | 02:13 |
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| da2ce7_mobile | sipa, hmm cool thanks; 160-bit is quite reasonable to put at the end of a SMS. Leaving ~110 characters for the message. | 02:20 |
| katu | da2ce7_mobile: 130+ | 02:25 |
| katu | sipa: why not ec-schnorr? | 02:25 |
| da2ce7_mobile | katu, 20bytes base64 is 28characters. so 140 - 28 = 112 characters remaining. Unless I'm missing something? | 02:28 |
| katu | da2ce7_mobile: 26 characters. also 160-28. | 02:29 |
| sipa | katu: ec-schnorr sigs are 4x the security parameter | 02:31 |
| sipa | in size | 02:31 |
| katu | sipa: ah | 02:32 |
| katu | so 256bit curve schnorr is merely 64bit security? | 02:32 |
| da2ce7_mobile | cool. well that's what I needed to know. :) it seems like it is very feasible :) | 02:33 |
| sipa | katu: 256bit curve schnorr uses 512-bit signatures and has 128-bit securitt | 02:36 |
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| sipa | katu: 256 bit BLS uses 256-bit signatures and has 128-bit security | 02:37 |
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| katu | sipa: ah, didn't realize there is s,e pair and not just s. | 02:42 |
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| sipa | katu: in EC schnorr the signature typically consists of (s,R.x) rather than (s,e), as this allows batch validation | 02:45 |
| sipa | it's just a reformulation and has the same size | 02:46 |
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| sipa | for traditional (non EC), the (s,R) formulation is not usable as the group is much larger | 02:46 |
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| nsh | smart contract vulnerabilities can be somewhat nontrivial: http://vessenes.com/more-ethereum-attacks-race-to-empty-is-the-real-deal/ | 07:21 |
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| metamarc | petertodd, can you tell me what would be the likely cause of a python-bitcoinlib RawProxy throwing httplib.BadStatusLine exceptions? | 14:30 |
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| metamarc | Should I be building a new rpc proxy for each API call? | 14:33 |
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| metamarc | Maybe I should switch to python-bitcoinrpc.. | 14:38 |
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| kanzure | metamarc: wrong channel. but also, BadStatusLine is often because of bitcoind problems. | 14:42 |
| sipa | i believe it is due to python not being able to deal with http persistent connections | 14:43 |
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| kanzure | maybe i'm misremembering errors, i'm thinking of "already-sent". | 15:10 |
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| metamarc | Okay, thanks | 15:13 |
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| metamarc | What channel would be more appropriate? #bitcoin ? | 15:14 |
| sipa | yes | 15:14 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jun 13 00:00:29 2016 | ||
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