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| bsm117532 | maaku: It's coming... | 07:00 |
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| bsm117532 | gmaxwell: The idea is that the verification step is included in my calculation of latency, and miners wouldn't be punished for it. | 07:01 |
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| PeterR | Bob: regarding which distribution to use for block propagation times, did you see the distributions in our Xthin article? | 10:30 |
| PeterR | https://medium.com/@peter_r/towards-massive-on-chain-scaling-block-propagation-results-with-xthin-a0f1e3c23919 | 10:30 |
| PeterR | Lognormal fits the empirical data fairly well (although the tails were fatter than even lognormal). | 10:30 |
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| PeterR | Note that we were measuring only a single "hop." | 10:37 |
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| bsm1175321 | PeterR thanks, lognormal is no surprise, I'll add it as an option. Also it's the one-hop distribution I need, and I will sample it on each hop. | 10:43 |
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| katu_ | what is this shit about GFW, do they really drop bitcoin connections?[1~ | 11:05 |
| katu_ | to me the problem with china seems like their state telecoms dont peer with outside world[1;5C[1;5C | 11:06 |
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| fluffypony | katu_: #bitcoin-dev | 11:11 |
| kanzure | "Breaking symmetric cryptosystems using quantum period finding" https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.05973 | 11:12 |
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| bavly | hey ? | 11:45 |
| bavly | i need help please | 11:45 |
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| Taek | don't ask to ask just ask | 11:54 |
| PeterR | katu_: I'm not sure what the underlying mechanism is, but blocks propagate through the GFC significantly slower than across the normal P2P. | 11:55 |
| PeterR | We present a bunch of pertinent data here: | 11:55 |
| PeterR | https://medium.com/@peter_r/towards-massive-on-chain-scaling-block-propagation-results-with-xthin-792a752c14c2 | 11:55 |
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| katu_ | PeterR: the mechanism is crap and expensive HK bandwidth | 11:56 |
| katu_ | because asia | 11:56 |
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| bavly | i have a wallet on bitcoin core . and although i am sure that some one sent to my addres bitcoins they dont appear in balance or even pending | 11:57 |
| PeterR | What I thought was interesting was that the GFC slowed down Xthin blocks by a smaller factor than it slowed down standard blocks. | 11:57 |
| fluffypony | bavly: ask in #bitcoin, this is for discussing theoretical cryptocurrency ideas | 11:57 |
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| katu_ | PeterR: there are workarounds of course, like partitioning the blocks among many peers and let them bypass the narrow gullet | 11:58 |
| PeterR | katu_: agreed. @thezerg is working on some similar ideas right now. | 11:59 |
| katu_ | PeterR: very good sample data is torrents with high chinese peer presence. each individual peer can push like 5kb/s internationally (even if it gets fttx speeds on mainland). but bittorrent overcomes it easily, it simply talks to 200 peers. | 12:01 |
| katu_ | anyhow, i'm not a big fan of hacks like that as they depend on highly diversified p2p network, which bitcoin sadly is not (compared to bittorrent). | 12:05 |
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| katu_ | i wonder what happened to blockheader-first and set reconcilation proposals | 12:06 |
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| PeterR | Did you see the Xthin results I just linked? Xthin blocks made it through the GFC about 10 times faster than standard blocks. | 12:06 |
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| katu_ | PeterR: i cant read the log graph very well, whats the mean avg? | 12:08 |
| katu_ | my mean average latency from europe to most of china is 350ms, so it should be around that number. | 12:09 |
| PeterR | 17.4 seconds (std. blocks) versus 1.8 seconds (Xthin) | 12:09 |
| PeterR | It's what's shown in the first figure in the article. | 12:09 |
| PeterR | The *median* time for Xthin through the GFC was 0.66 sec. | 12:10 |
| PeterR | The mean is a lot longer than the median because of the ~lognormal distribution. | 12:10 |
| katu_ | thats pretty decent for a federated network | 12:11 |
| PeterR | Thanks. We were quite pleased with the results. | 12:11 |
| katu_ | still, true bittorrent-like partitioning can get near true network latency provided you get sufficient amount of nodes on both sides | 12:11 |
| PeterR | Agreed. | 12:11 |
| katu_ | (and i kinda like the idea of federated transport as an intermediary solution). though i'd organize your PR a bit differently. | 12:12 |
| katu_ | ie directly ask pools for small cut according to measured orphan rate you reduced | 12:13 |
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| PeterR | Yes! | 12:13 |
| PeterR | I was brainstorming ideas like this yesterday. | 12:13 |
| PeterR | I think it could be made to work somehow... | 12:13 |
| katu_ | anyhow, gmaxwell apparently hates your guts | 12:14 |
| katu_ | so theres a chance core will be fixed to do something smarter than it currently does | 12:15 |
| katu_ | destroying your business model in the process | 12:15 |
| katu_ | its a risky enterprise :) | 12:15 |
| katu_ | (but ultimately with good outcome for bitcoin either way, so kudoz to you :) | 12:16 |
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| PeterR | Haha the only pay off I'm looking for is the smile on my face when that first 1.1 MB block gets mined. | 12:18 |
| katu_ | wait, is this endeavor part of core/classic drama? | 12:18 |
| * katu_ had the impression both had the same slow blockprop | 12:19 | |
| PeterR | Xthin has been part of Bitcoin Unlimited since March and is now part of XT too. | 12:19 |
| PeterR | There is an experimental branch of Classic that supports it, but the main Classic client does not (at the moment) | 12:20 |
| katu_ | oh, you do primitive set recon | 12:23 |
| katu_ | i thought you were merely a relay network | 12:23 |
| katu_ | PeterR: any plans for true IBF epstein set recon? | 12:23 |
| katu_ | i think it was | 12:24 |
| katu_ | .t https://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/pubs/EppGooUye-SIGCOMM-11.pdf | 12:24 |
| yoleaux | katu_: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones for a list of options. | 12:24 |
| katu_ | bah | 12:24 |
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| katu_ | hmm, apparently old topic, https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/e20c3b5a1d4b97f79ac2 | 12:25 |
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| PeterR | Personally, I think Xthin + subchains + optimistic mining (headers first) will give us all the scaling we need. | 12:26 |
| katu_ | personally, i trust gmaxwell on this, optimistic mining assumes everyone behaves rationally within bitcoin closed system | 12:27 |
| katu_ | but thats an assumption too weak | 12:27 |
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| PeterR | But optimisitic mining results in a small profitability advantage for a miner. How do you stop them from doing it? | 12:27 |
| instagibbs | katu_, I've become more pessimistic re:IBLT and the like | 12:28 |
| instagibbs | obviously mempool sync is nice | 12:28 |
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| instagibbs | Matt has a new relay network up and running which does UDP+FEC for latency reduction(plus gossip for mempool). Something like that seems to be the best bet. | 12:29 |
| instagibbs | it's not p2p though, more work would be needed for that | 12:29 |
| Taek | you can solve the optimistic mining problem by allowing conflicting transactions to appear in a block (and ignoring them). This breaks SPV, but there are some latency based methods of fixing it | 12:29 |
| instagibbs | (you can't just relay data willy nilly, actually have to validate or get DoS banned) | 12:29 |
| Taek | for example, in the coinbase transaction you could include the merkle root of all valid transaction in the block 3 blocks back | 12:30 |
| instagibbs | Taek, I thought the DAG Days were over ;) another one | 12:30 |
| Taek | I'm pretty convinced that a dag construction is superior in most ways | 12:30 |
| PeterR | Still waiting to read Bob's paper :D | 12:31 |
| Taek | and I'm also convinced that, if SPV is a blocking factor, there are simple ways to bring it back | 12:31 |
| instagibbs | Taek, I do not believe a tree is the best thing, surely :) | 12:32 |
| Taek | I am curious what your doubts are | 12:32 |
| bsm1175321 | SPV is straightforward if you can organize things into blocks from the DAG, that's what my "cohorts" are. | 12:32 |
| instagibbs | tree meaning the chain we have now | 12:32 |
| Taek | oh | 12:32 |
| Taek | even if you are using a chain, you can still enable safe opportunistic mining without breaking SPV | 12:33 |
| instagibbs | I think some sort of DAG like thing plus miners not being in charge of validation is best. But that's still, erm, unbaked | 12:33 |
| Taek | you just add a few blocks of latency | 12:33 |
| Taek | well, and it's a hardfork | 12:33 |
| Taek | unless you do 'segregatedtransaction' :) | 12:33 |
| katu_ | instagibbs: simplest solution would be just to punish miners who intentionally break the network with selfish / "optimistic" mining. that way the dynamic system can be reduced to the most simple game theoretic model where everybody loses. | 12:34 |
| katu_ | and the incentive is to simply build robust relaying. | 12:34 |
| katu_ | sadly the punishment does not work that well in practice | 12:34 |
| katu_ | miners still mine on spv pools etc :/ | 12:34 |
| PeterR | katu_: I don't see optimisitic mining as a problem to be "solved" (I see it as a positive). What exactly are you worried about? That miners will stop validating *completely*? | 12:35 |
| katu_ | PeterR: remind me what optimistic means again. mining on top of a tip you didnt verify "optimistically" ? | 12:38 |
| PeterR | It means you would start mining once you've received the block header and verified the PoW but before you've downloaded and verified all the transactions. | 12:39 |
| katu_ | it simply breaks core assumptions that double spenders cant hijack hashpower for their attempt, not even temporarily. it still effectively boosts hashpower of attempted doublespend. | 12:39 |
| PeterR | You set a timer and STOP optimistic mining if you don't verify the complete block by the deadline | 12:39 |
| katu_ | yes. | 12:39 |
| katu_ | and that time period is hijacked hashpower | 12:39 |
| katu_ | the longer the deadline, the worse it gets. i agree that short deadlinse (<100ms) wouldnt matter much | 12:40 |
| PeterR | Yes, that is a valid point. I'd like to see the math for this, however. I bet it comes out as insignificant for any reasonable optimistic-mining time period. | 12:41 |
| katu_ | but past second it starts to feel uncomfortable | 12:41 |
| katu_ | thats 1/600 of a big chinese pool for me, yay | 12:41 |
| PeterR | I was thinking about 6 sec (1%). | 12:41 |
| PeterR | But I don't have any math to back that up...just gut feel. | 12:42 |
| PeterR | Maybe I'll try to analyze this properly.... | 12:42 |
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| katu_ | PeterR: granted, this concerns 1-conf transactions for the most part, but might break some more complex assumptions (ie parasitic chains, contracts) | 12:43 |
| PeterR | Yes. | 12:43 |
| PeterR | Ok got to get back to work. Thanks for the chat! | 12:44 |
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| nicolagreco | exit | 12:54 |
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| nicolag | can anyone help me understand Async Common Subset? | 12:55 |
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| midnightmagic | not really sure why rizun is welcome here given the fairly extreme provocation and promotion of cartoons of people being killed. | 14:13 |
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| fluffypony | I felt it prudent to keep quiet, katu_ was doing just fine in defense of secure system design :-P | 14:16 |
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| dgenr8 | lognormal propagation is much simpler to work with than the alternatives i looked at. it's a bit hard to justify though - often it arises from a multiplicative sequence, and how does that model t(one network hop)? | 15:21 |
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| dgenr8 | katu_: optimistic miners build empty blocks, so no help to double spenders | 15:26 |
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| bsm1175321 | dgenr8: I have a network simulation for braids, latencies are calculated as distances on the surface of a sphere. I'm just inserting an additional delay drawn from a lognormal distribution to model the long-tails of real-world propagation. | 15:33 |
| katu_ | dgenr8: the offending transaction is already embedded in the block prior on which optimistic miners blindly mine on, thus lending him more hashpower. | 15:37 |
| katu_ | my assumption is they also blindly broadcast without waiting for the block to verify. | 15:38 |
| katu_ | (sadly i couldnt find concise description of what xthin actually _does_, thus i'm assuming the worst) | 15:41 |
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| katu_ | in case it witholds the block, attack surface is smaller, but still exists - winning hashes are semi-public for pools. it becomes non-technical debate whether or not individual miners would leak those, again, something im not entirely comfortable with. | 15:55 |
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| PeterR | katu_: there's a diagram and a brief description of how Xthin works in Fig. 1 here: | 16:41 |
| PeterR | https://medium.com/@peter_r/towards-massive-on-chain-scaling-presenting-our-block-propagation-results-with-xthin-da54e55dc0e4 | 16:41 |
| PeterR | And here is the original Xthin BUIP by Peter Tschipper: | 16:41 |
| PeterR | https://bitco.in/forum/threads/buip010-passed-xtreme-thinblocks.774/ | 16:41 |
| PeterR | Xthin is unrelated to optimistic mining. | 16:42 |
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| slackircbridge1 | <dts> He's really trying to Orwell the SPV mining as "optimistic mining" | 19:33 |
| slackircbridge1 | <dts> What a total douche | 19:33 |
| nsh | (personal comments are off-topic) | 19:38 |
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| slackircbridge1 | <dts> woah how did he see what I said | 19:50 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jun 17 00:00:32 2016 | ||
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