| --- Log opened Wed Jul 06 00:00:49 2016 | ||
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| rusty | maaku: N-1 might be a bit close, but N-6 seems reasonable. I just used 100 in my example above. | 00:07 |
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| maaku | rusty: would need testing or simulation to know better. a large chunk of the DB access is to the interior of the tree | 00:11 |
| rusty | maaku: well, blocks can be v. close together, so N-1 might not give you time to generate the new one. | 00:12 |
| maaku | rusty: the fallback that will actually happen being spv mining, which I've got mixed feelings about | 00:13 |
| rusty | maaku: that's true for validation, but for miners it's worse, since they can't mine at all until they;ve generated it. | 00:13 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> bsm117532: (sorry, stepped away) -- I agree that there's not really any reason for a trie in Bitcoin's case. Namecoin's use cases differ significantly (specifically there are use cases that benefit from looking up a subtrie, i.e. all names with a given prefix/namespace). If Namecoin produces code that's beneficial for Bitcoin, that's a great side effect, but I suspect the differing use cases will result in our trie-b | 00:14 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> being directly applicable to Bitcoin. :/ | 00:14 |
| maaku | rusty: sure they can mine. they ask their other friendly miners what committment to put in their block and use that | 00:23 |
| rusty | maaku: ha! | 00:23 |
| maaku | rusty: my mixed feelings is whether we should simply accept that outcome and engineer validation to finish in less than the 30s timeout one would hope they use in spv mining | 00:25 |
| maaku | that has the real advantage of making utxo commitments actually useful for wallet stuff | 00:25 |
| rusty | maaku: ? | 00:25 |
| rusty | maaku: you just need a second, interim commitment. | 00:25 |
| rusty | maaku: "UTXO changes made in this block" | 00:26 |
| maaku | true | 00:26 |
| rusty | maaku: sure, proofs get a bit larger. | 00:26 |
| rusty | maaku: but if miners create the infrastructure for efficient SPV mining, it's going to be very hard to fix bitcoin :( | 00:27 |
| maaku | rusty: I really don't have an alternative, as much as I want one | 00:28 |
| maaku | which is part of why I've been working on other things | 00:28 |
| maaku | ("first, do no harm") | 00:28 |
| rusty | maaku: um, I always assumed there'd be interim commitments with this scheme. That works, no? At some complexity cost... | 00:29 |
| maaku | rusty: the block-transaction merkle tree proofs are huge, we would need some simulation data (hint, hint) to see just what kind of hit that would be | 00:30 |
| maaku | e.g. I certainly wouldn't want to prove a local-block commitment for the last 100 blocks | 00:30 |
| maaku | or maybe we accept that the last 100 blocks is a rolling commitment that will fit in memory, but then we need to engineer that | 00:31 |
| * rusty refuses to get distracted into simulating this ;) | 00:31 | |
| maaku | fair enough | 00:31 |
| maaku | (me too) | 00:31 |
| rusty | maaku: but the advantage of a deferred commitment is it can be simple: a simple ordered binary merkle tree of UTXOs. The interim commitments can also be simple: one binary tree of UTXOs consumed, one of UTXOs created (in practice, left and right branches of same tree). | 00:33 |
| rusty | maaku: generating that full UTXO commitment means sweeping through the entire UTXO set (approximately), but as long as that takes comfortably less than 10 minutes... | 00:33 |
| rusty | Damn, gtg. | 00:34 |
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| maaku | we need to get rusty a bouncer | 00:40 |
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| r0ach | Anyone here tried to analyze Microcash yet? (Yea, I'm aware most people think Realsolid is Satan lol). It is technically a federated chain where verification is centralized amongst pre-selected orderer(s), but they can't double spend or anything, can only go offline to create downtime. There is of course no built-in way to replace them, which makes it federated. | 00:54 |
| r0ach | I've been trying to think of some way to improve that system. | 00:56 |
| r0ach | to turn it into something more automated and less federated obviously | 00:57 |
| r0ach | mostly due to the idea of convergent evolution, where a lot of people who are not connected to one another at all (like anonymint, realsolid, and others) that have been attempting to create systems keep spamming at me that you "have to centralize verification" but then limit what the centralized verifier can negatively do | 01:01 |
| r0ach | mostly because they believe verification centralizes anyway | 01:02 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> Anyone here have an opinion on the technical merits of the merged mining protocol used by P2Pool? In particular its method of reducing the header overhead from the coinbase tx of the parent chain? | 07:47 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> It's doing some magic with a hash midstate, that I don't fully understand and that I don't feel qualified to evaluate | 07:47 |
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| bsm117532 | Jeremy_Rand I'm not familiar, but would like to read. Can you link something? | 07:57 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> bsm117532: I'll try to dig up a link, one moment | 07:57 |
| bsm117532 | I wonder what people here think about merged mining -- from an overhead perspective it's best to have the parent chain be merged-mining aware. But do people here not *want* Bitcoin to be merge mined? | 07:58 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> bsm117532: the best info I can dig up is this GitHub thread, starting at this comment (context is an attempt to make P2Pool work with a Namecoin sharechain): https://github.com/p2pool/p2pool/issues/265#issuecomment-132440371 | 08:01 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> the spec is not what I would call easy to understand or complete; my understanding is that the implementation in P2Pool is the canonical reference (which is unfortunate) | 08:03 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> bsm117532: regarding an MM-aware parent chain, yes, that's more efficient and simpler than what P2Pool does. Unfortunately Namecoin does not really want to wait for Bitcoin to decide to hardfork in favor of such a thing, if that ever occurs. | 08:08 |
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| bsm117532 | It might not be impossible. The only way to truly secure a sidechain is if everyone mines everything. Now that we have CSV and CLTV, might be a good time to rethink merged-mining. | 08:22 |
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| maaku | Jeremy_Rand: the midstate trick is quite simple. just dump the internal state of the hash function before processing the last output | 09:59 |
| maaku | I have no opinion on the quality of the p2pool scheme itself, since I haven't reviewed it | 09:59 |
| maaku | (the general idea is fine) | 09:59 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> maaku: thanks | 10:00 |
| maaku | Jeremy_Rand: the rule you want is that the commitment is the last 32-bytes of the last output of the coinbase | 10:00 |
| maaku | hrm... segwit gets this wrong actually | 10:01 |
| maaku | I wonder if I should write a bug report | 10:03 |
| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> maaku: I'm not particularly familiar with how SegWit handles this | 10:04 |
| maaku | I believe segwit looks for the commitment at the start of the output. | 10:06 |
| maaku | But this means you can't actually use the midstate trick because you don't know if you're in an outupt or in push data that looks like an output. | 10:07 |
| maaku | I actually had a PR to fix this I think... | 10:07 |
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| qpm | tx:<Jeremy_Rand> maaku: would be nice to fix that -- regardless of what Namecoin ends up doing, future-proofing is a good thing | 10:12 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jul 07 00:00:50 2016 | ||
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