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| nicolagreco | kanzure, bsm1175321 have you seen vuvuzela? | 02:08 |
|---|---|---|
| fluffypony | I have like 3 of those in my cupboard | 02:09 |
| fluffypony | oh you mean the software | 02:09 |
| fluffypony | nm | 02:09 |
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| nicolagreco | ha! ^ | 02:09 |
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| maaku | ;seen vuvuzela | 04:47 |
| maaku | .seen vuvuzela | 04:47 |
| yoleaux | I haven't seen vuvuzela around. | 04:47 |
| * fluffypony chuckles | 04:47 | |
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| nicolagreco | I meant "have you read vuvuzela", the paper similar to riposte, riffle and cmix | 06:46 |
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| bsm1175321 | https://github.com/davidlazar/vuvuzela | 06:52 |
| bsm1175321 | oooh nicolagreco that's a great ref, thanks!!! | 06:52 |
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| nicolagreco | I have got a question, maybe the answer is trivial, but why blockchains are hashchains and not history trees? | 06:55 |
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| bsm1175321 | Because you need a single agreed upon global state. A history tree (like git) has many valid histories. Having a single state means we agreed that I transferred coins to you, and that there don't exist two histories, one where I transferred the coins, and one where I didn't. | 06:56 |
| bsm1175321 | FWIW I am working on bringing "merging" to my brads idea -- being able to merge histories rather than orphaning one. | 07:01 |
| nicolagreco | "Because you need a single agreed upon global state" | 07:03 |
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| nicolagreco | what you make the miners agree on is the root of the history tree | 07:03 |
| bsm1175321 | The root of the history tree is the "genesis block" and basically *defines* the currency. Other genesis blocks define another currency (such as namecoin/litecoin/dogecoin/etc) | 07:04 |
| nicolagreco | when I mean history tree I refer to Crosby's "Efficient data structures for tamper-evident logs" | 07:04 |
| nicolagreco | oh but in an history tree | 07:05 |
| nicolagreco | the genesis block would just be the first block in the "log" backed by the history tree | 07:05 |
| nicolagreco | https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/efLlWwef/Screen%20Shot%202016-07-12%20at%204.06.01%20PM.png | 07:06 |
| bsm1175321 | Yes. | 07:06 |
| bsm1175321 | http://static.usenix.org/event/sec09/tech/full_papers/crosby.pdf | 07:06 |
| bsm1175321 | I believe this is basically identical to how git works, but correct me if I'm wrong. | 07:06 |
| nicolagreco | miners agree on the root, and check that the history is consistent and the initial X is the genesis block | 07:06 |
| bsm1175321 | Oh I see -- this idea has been mentioned before in the context of SPV wallets. | 07:07 |
| bsm1175321 | SPV wallets currently keep the "hash chain" of block headers. | 07:07 |
| bsm1175321 | It's possible to make a tree out of that hash chain and achieve the same security at log(n) space. This idea comes up occasionally here... | 07:08 |
| bsm1175321 | But, you have to trust the person that turned the chain into a tree. | 07:08 |
| bsm1175321 | Since one cannot recover the proof-of-work from the root of such a tree. | 07:09 |
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| maaku | bsm1175321: the solution is to have block header tree commitments | 07:10 |
| bsm1175321 | ^^ what maaku says. Is this idea anywhere near being realized? | 07:10 |
| maaku | rusty and I did some work on it ... 18 months ago? was it really that long ago? | 07:12 |
| maaku | anyway, there's some R&D that needs to be done on what the best commitment structure is | 07:12 |
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| maaku | recursive MMR was the best 'generic' structure, but rusty was finding some (ugly, imho) custom structures to be slightly faster. i'm hopeful a generic structure as good as the magic-number special case structures can be found | 07:13 |
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| maaku | other than that, there's just a minimal amount of engineering effort to actually make and check the commitments | 07:13 |
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| bsm1175321 | I might end up picking up the torch of "light client security model" and include that with UTXO set commitments...we need implementations for testing. | 07:16 |
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| maaku | bsm1175321: may I suggest working on a talk for Scaling Bitcoin 3? | 07:17 |
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| bsm1175321 | Good suggestion. Can you link your existing work? | 07:17 |
| bsm1175321 | I can't promise, I want to finish this braids stuff too. But the two are related (because both of these light client security proposals increase validation time) | 07:18 |
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| nicolagreco | "But, you have to trust the person that turned the chain into a tree." | 07:27 |
| nicolagreco | not if you make this part of the consensus/verification | 07:27 |
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| maaku | nicolagreco: that's what was just said ^ | 07:28 |
| nicolagreco | maaku: whoops, still reading | 07:28 |
| nicolagreco | bsm1175321: keep me posted about the braids idea | 07:29 |
| nicolagreco | bsm1175321: or if I can help some how, I will definitely put some time thinking in that direction for a bit in the coming months | 07:30 |
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| nicolagreco | maaku is there some work I can see read on this? | 07:35 |
| bsm1175321 | Well we've entered a "quiet period" with the SEC due to some other things going on at my company (check Reddit), which likely gives me free rein to work on longer-term projects. ;-) | 07:36 |
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| nsh | you perfected cold fusion? neato | 07:53 |
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| nicolagreco | maaku, bsm1175321 on the previous point, I have just been told to read this http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf | 08:02 |
| kanzure | nicolagreco: have you been making use of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ ? | 08:02 |
| nicolagreco | kanzure: thanks! first time I see it | 08:03 |
| nicolagreco | I already see a great intersection with my list | 08:03 |
| nicolagreco | wow, this list is huge | 08:03 |
| kanzure | it's just stuff i've been reading | 08:04 |
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| kanzure | i also have a variety of other topics http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/security/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/ etc | 08:05 |
| nicolagreco | kanzure: have you read them all? | 08:05 |
| kanzure | for some value of "reading", yes. every symbol on every page? no... | 08:05 |
| nicolagreco | that is still a long list, thanks for sharing this | 08:06 |
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| nicolagreco | we should categorize them like andrej karpathy does for nlp | 08:07 |
| nicolagreco | s/nlp/nlp papers/ | 08:07 |
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| bsm117532 | I suppose a light client a la the Kiayias/Lamprou/Stouka paper above couldn't verify retargets... :-/ | 08:36 |
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| bitcoin-wizards7 | ? | 13:08 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jul 13 00:00:56 2016 | ||
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