2016-08-06.log

--- Log opened Sat Aug 06 00:00:18 2016
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Peter_R_This weak block discussion sounds a lot like subchains: http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/resources/subchains.pdf00:29
Peter_R_Visual explaination: https://bitco.in/forum/threads/subchains-and-other-applications-of-weak-blocks.584/#post-724600:30
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@gmaxwellOh plagerist drive by00:46
@gmaxwellFor those who don't know, I described weakblocks in extensive detail to PeterR in a private email conversation that he was kind enough to post to bitcoin-dev00:47
@gmaxwellhe had a real hard time understand the idea, so I explained it several times00:47
@gmaxwellThen he had the nerve to write an academic paper on the subject renaming it, and dishonestly misattributing it.00:48
@gmaxwellAshame: the illustrations in his paper were quite well done.-- too bad so much talent is wasted on a person who is completely devoid of integrity.00:48
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@gmaxwellFigured that would work.00:49
@gmaxwellPeter_R_: You're not welcome here. You are a dispiciable and dishonest person.00:49
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@gmaxwell( the email thread, for reference, http://pastebin.com/jFgkk8M3  )00:50
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@gmaxwellI'm tired of being chased out of a channel I created by PeterR and his toadies and socks.00:51
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tunafizzdamnit. did a paper on bitcoin last year, didn't know I could just have you guys write it for me...02:34
tunafizz would have saved me hours of effort and taking the time to learn the technicals of btc02:34
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sipatunafizz: but then you wouldn't have learned as much :)02:37
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bsm1175321I'm very dismayed that gmaxwell is so bitter.  I spoke with Peter_R and he expressed nothing but respect for gmaxwell.  Both Peter_R and I are here largely because gmaxwell intellegently engaged us and patiently answered questions when we first showed up in -wizards.  I don't want to have to pick sides in someone else's fight.08:12
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brg444I had to log in to address this previous comment ^^08:23
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brg444that you would even suggest Peter R is acting in good faith and with genuine intentions shows you are unfortunately out of touch with his entire shenanigans throughout the last few years08:24
brg444him singing the praise of Greg isn't something worth giving him credit for when he spent the better part of the last year making spiteful back handed comments on him08:25
kanzureand why would it matter whether someone praises gmaxwell? that's completely irrelevant.08:27
pigeonslet's take this somewhere else so i can tell bsm1175321 how full of crap that is. Its much more than that email exchange. Its pathological and insidious and persistent and dark and gross.08:27
brg444Peter has rallied a great amount of malicious individuals and fueled constant character assassination toward various contributors to the ecosystem.08:28
brg444Sorry I know this is off-topic so I'll leave it at that... but let's not be so easily deceived by somehow who's made a habit out of manipulating people08:29
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bsm1175321I really don't want to be involved.  I'm an editor for his journal, and I feel I can do good that way, independent of this drama.08:51
kanzureperhaps instead of highlighting what you perceive to be bitterness, you should consider the downsides to working with those who are academically dishonest (why would you want to work for "his" journal under those circumstances? wat?)08:52
Taekeasy guys08:53
kanzures/"his" journal/"his journal"/ i guess08:53
bsm1175321I honestly haven't tried to evaluate it, and don't have an opinion.  The weak blocks/xthin is in my opinion premature optimization.  It's valuable in the short term but doesn't solve the fundamental problem: a chain is a single-writer model, and there are multiple writers.  (Hence my work on braids)08:59
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TaekI'm not sure what work is currently being done on weak blocks for Bitcoin, but from a theoretical perspective weak blocks are a lot less far out than braids. They are definitely lower hanging fruit, and provide some tangible advantages09:02
bsm1175321I agree Taek.  I'm not opposed to other people working on them, but have chosen to put my efforts elsewhere... ;-)09:07
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bsm1175321Isn't this the same as "compact block relay" which is going in to core?09:07
kanzuresee links in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2016-08-05.log (short answer: compact blocks are not the only idea you are conflating here)09:10
bsm1175321Ah I see kanzure09:12
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bsm1175321Even with both compact blocks and weak blocks, there will still be orphans.09:22
bsm1175321And selfish mining will still work.09:23
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bsm1175321FWIW, The Subchains paper has not been submitted to Ledger. (I just checked) If it were, I would do my best in the role of editor to ensure that proper attribution was made.09:40
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midnightmagicbsm1175321: In all the time I've watched, read, and seen (hand-drawn comics included) there has never been any respect whatsoever, almost right from the beginning, from him. He is showing you a facet of his character, and showing everyone else something else entirely. Seriously. The guy drew a hand-drawn un-funny animation of "someone" in core getting squished to death. With blood. By big14:45
midnightmagicblocks. He makes statements which are cruel, tolerates and thereby encourages criminal behaviour on the part of sycophants who follow him around, and makes lopsided and false comments about the ability, intention, and morals of people who disagree with him. Consider the possibility that it is likely he just doesn't want to lose what support he has in the form of folks like yourself by14:45
midnightmagicgiving you reasons to doubt his character. But woe be unto ye if you get on his bad side. Don't say nobody warned you.14:45
sipabsm1175321: compact blocks is a change purely between two individual peers on the network, exploiting the fact that the receiver of a block already knows most of the transactions anyway14:50
sipabsm1175321: weak blocks is a change where miners announce partial PoW solutions with attached data to make the network know and validate ahead of time what they are working on14:50
sipathey interact insofar that weak blocks can use compact block protocol to be relayed as well... but it goes much further14:51
sipaas compact blocks is about individual transactions; with weak blocks often a full block can be completely validated by the network ahead of time14:51
bsm1175321sipa: It seems rather unlikely that between a weak block and a regular block, no new transactions appear, no?14:52
sipabsm1175321: miners have no incentive to include new transactions that they don't know the network hasn't already validated14:52
sipaunless they are doing a selfish mining attack of course, which they always can14:53
sipathe idea behind weak blocks is that finding a weak block grants you a right to tell the network what you're working on, but also what you soon will be working on14:53
sipaother miners have an incentive to switch to the block you've announced to be working on as well14:54
sipaand indeed, it does not and cannot prevents orphans... but under non-adverserial circumstances it can make block propagation independent from the block size14:55
bsm1175321Interesting.  Has that been the plan all along?14:55
sipathe effect from just latency due to geographical distribution can't be prevented and will always be a centralization pressure14:55
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sipabut for example FIBRE relays blocks now often within 10ms of what the speed of light can do14:56
bsm1175321sipa: Leave that to me...with braids.14:56
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sipabsm1175321: i am not convinced that braids can solve this, especially when there are double spends in the network14:57
sipabsm1175321: but i encourage research about it!14:57
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bsm1175321sipa: That's a good point.  Adversarial double-spends can simulate the effect of orphans, I'm aware of this.14:57
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bsm1175321I'm working on an alternative mechanism to resolve double-spends as a consequence.14:58
sipain any case, i don't think we will have one magic bullet solution for this14:58
bsm1175321e.g. an adversarial miner could broadcast a spend to all other miners, and mine a double-spend himself, to force other miners to fork.14:58
sipahave you talked with aviv zohar?14:59
bsm1175321Not recently, I think he was at the HK Scaling Bitcoin though.15:00
sipahe was not15:00
bsm1175321Then no...why?15:00
sipahis research group has been working on graph-based block chain ideas for a few years now15:00
sipaa student of his presented in HK, i believe15:01
bsm1175321It was Yonatan at scaling...15:01
siparight15:01
bsm1175321He disappeared shortly after our talks, I only talked to him breifly :-/15:01
sipai think you should try to collaborate with them15:01
bsm1175321Perhaps, have they made any progress since their "Inclusive" paper?15:02
sipai've talked to aviv at financial cryptography in february15:03
sipai don't know the details, but i'm sure they are working on more than what was presented15:03
bsm1175321I gave an online talk with my latest results which you can find linked here: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4srtfs/braiding_the_blockchain_bob_mcelrath_phd_if_two/15:04
bsm1175321Basically I found a "fastest possible block time" with my cohorts algorithm.  (which is also new since I talked with you at Scaling)15:04
bsm1175321I'm hoping to have an alternative double-spend algorithm, as well as a "merging" algorithm by Milan...15:05
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midnightmagicFor what it's worth, I've already banned him and explicitly told him, like six times now, they he's not welcome here; so, by logging in from another host, he's ban-evading. (Perhaps unwittingly, but he at least knows that I kickbanned him already.)16:07
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kanzure.tw https://twitter.com/domiwoe/status/76205799384016896017:11
yoleaux@kanzure Do you know to which paper about SC in Solidity Boneh is referring to in the beginning? (@domiwoe)17:11
sipaSC?17:13
kanzuresmart contracts? dunno.17:18
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domwoeyeah17:24
domwoeI'm referring to that: "There was a paper that came out of this with ethereum smart contracts. So did elaine shi. They were using the python version of the scripting language. Ours is the javascript version of the scripting language."17:24
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pigeonsI bet maybe https://mc2-umd.github.io/ethereumlab/docs/serpent_tutorial.pdf , remember Serpent is the "python [-like] version" and Solidity the "javascript [-like] version"17:57
pigeonsthey have a "go-like version too, Mutans or somethin. I guess people only use solidity now17:58
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domwoeThat's the python/serpent paper by Elaine Shi he mentions18:20
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kanzureunfortunately that elaine shi paper was mentioned by me, not dan18:28
kanzurealthough he recognized it, so *shrug*18:28
domwoeah ok. But "Ours is the javascript version of the scripting language." refers to Boneh's group18:30
kanzureyes that's right18:31
domwoehmm maybe it's not yet published18:31
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rhetthi wizards19:15
rhettWhy doesn't someone do what ethereum classic did for a larger blocksize bitcoin?19:16
rhettinstead of the bitcoin XT approach19:16
rhettgive everyone who currently has bitcoin equivalent bitcoin XL on a new forked blockchain, and then list it on an exchange?19:17
sipathat's what classic/xt would have done if it actually got adopted19:17
rhettI thought classic was trying to write blocks on the bitcoin blockchain19:18
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sipaa hard fork causes a fork... afterwards there are two chains19:18
rhettright, like ethereum classic19:18
sipathe only difference is who gets to claim the name 'bitcoin'19:18
sipabut there is no technical difference here19:19
rhettmaybe I'm confused.  With ETH/ ETC, there are two chains.  ETC won't likely "die" completely even if its market cap goes way down19:19
rhettI thought bitcoin XT was trying to write blocks on the bitcoin blockchain19:20
rhettand competing for block writing19:20
rhettthe ETC approach doesn't care what ETH does19:20
rhettETC is just an altcoin19:20
rhettand it trades on an exchange19:20
rhettjust like litecoin or dogecoin19:20
sipai would argue that the new 'ETH' is an altcoin, and ETC is just the new name for what ETH used to be19:21
sipayes, you're confused19:21
sipathere is zero difference between the two approaches19:21
rhettso, where can I buy bitcoin XT?19:21
sipaxt never caused a fork19:21
sipabecause it didn't get adopted by miners19:22
sipathere is no such thing as 'writing in the bitcoin blockchain'; after a fork, there are two completely independent chains19:22
rhettso there is 100% difference between the two approaches19:22
sipathere would be no difference if XT or Bitcoin Classic would have been adopted19:22
rhettso there is 100% difference between the two approaches19:23
sipano19:23
sipawhat XT was _trying_ to do is exactly the same thing as what ETH _did_19:23
rhettcan't you make an altcoin with like 2 miners?19:23
dgenr8in the last 2 hours BIP109 has 4.2% of hash power. but it is defined not to fork with less that 75%19:24
sipasure, it would be very insecure though19:24
rhettok, so ETC started out very insecure.  The main differences were social ones, not necessary technical19:25
rhettlet people speculate on an insecure altcoin19:25
sipayes, the difference is that for ETH/ETC, a fork actually happened, and despite all claims that everyone would switch to the new ETH, that was wrong... and ETC actually got some traction19:25
dgenr8sipa: how do you feel about it? you mention quite often that "100% agreement is required to fork"19:26
bsm1175321The one thing the ETH/ETC fiasco taught me was that there is a profit motive for exchanges to enable trading on both sides of the fork, and it has nothing to do with technical merits of the fork.  ANY hard fork which creates two tradeable coins can cause a 50% split of mining power, and effective destruction of the currency.19:28
domwoeAlthough it would be much harder to continue a minority fork in bitcoin because the difficulty gets only re-adjusted every 2000 blocks or so19:29
sipaplus bitcoin actually gets used for payments19:29
rhettexactly bsm117532 I think someone must do it with bitcoin soon19:29
bsm1175321rhett I think you misunderstood me.19:29
rhettnot that it will necessarily be good for bitcoin19:29
rhettbut good for the exchanges19:30
siparhett: i don't understand why you think so. Classic and XT and Unlimited _tried_ to do exactly that in bitcoin19:30
rhettand coin pumpers19:30
sipayou seem to think that what happened with ETH was somehow different19:30
rhettsipa: it was different because kraken, poloniex, soon coinbase email customers and say, "hey you have some free ETC"19:31
siparhett: no, it was different because miners actually went along with the fork19:31
siparhett: the fact that exchanges then chose to also list the minority fork was a logical consequence19:31
rhettimagine if they just emailed everyone and said, "hey you have some free BTC-XL"19:31
rhettbitcoin ran fine on 1% of the mining power it has today19:32
sipathat's irrelevant19:32
rhettcoins with low mining power are just worth less19:32
sipathat's completely unrelated19:32
sipaa minority chain with 1% would be trivially attacked by the 99%19:32
sipaplus it would greatly undermine bitcoin's value proposition19:33
rhettthey are separate coins19:33
rhettwhy doesn't dogecoin get trivially attacked?19:33
sipadoesn't prevent attacking19:33
sipabecause it's a different proof of work function19:33
sipabitcoin miners can't be used to attack dogecoin19:33
bsm1175321Dogecoin did.  They implmented merge-mining with litecoin to mitigate it.19:33
kanzuresipa: pool hopping does cause problems for some scrypt-based altcoins19:33
sipakanzure: yes, but a scrypt miner can't be used to attack a sha-pow chain19:34
kanzure(and other hash functions, of course)19:34
rhettSo, if the fork changes the work function, but uses the same keypairs?19:34
siparhett: that's possible19:35
dgenr8rhett: if a bitcoin fork actually does try to do what ETC did, you'll know it19:35
siparhett: but then you can't claim to be the 'successor' to bitcoin anymore19:35
rhetti'd want to get in early if the coin pumpers are any good19:35
sipawell good luck :)19:35
dgenr8sipa: how do you feel about relying on close ties with centralized mining? necessary evil?19:36
kanzuredgenr8: how do you feel about asking loaded questions? :)19:36
dgenr8the only guy I've seen talk about an "inspired derivative" of bitcoin is Reid Hoffman19:38
kanzuresipa: perhaps exchanges that want to capitalize on the belief of users like rhett would be better off without a hard-fork at all. instead, they could list other symbols for trading prior to and without any fork, by holding the private keys themselvs. then the exchanges would be responsible for not double spending against themselves.19:39
kanzure*themselves19:40
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kanzuresipa: also, from a safety perspective, it is much better for exchanges to list something like that, rather than running an altcoin source code (for example: see how cryptsy was hax0red via remote backdoor in one of the altcoin implementations that they installed on to a shared server). other safety benefits include not blowing up the network in difficult-to-illustrate ways, or not needing to spend money on R&D for anti-replay tech things.19:44
sipakanzure: ha! starts to sound like how buying virtual mining contracts is sometimes more profitable than buying actual hardware :)19:47
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kanzuresipa: nope, no profitability claims were being made :)19:49
kanzuresipa: and it's entirely possible for highly-centralized constructions to be profitable, regardless of infringement on underlying principles.   anyway, the exchanges could choose to use their fee earnings to fund deployment of.. uh.. whatever it is that they think they want..19:50
kanzure*fee earnings from that new listed symbol (in particular)19:50
dgenr8sipa: will blockstream introduce sidechains that mix transferred BTC with generated native tokens?19:51
kanzurei think others have already introduced that (drivejobs etc)19:52
dgenr8sipa: how do you feel about censorship?19:55
sipadgenr8: i have no idea what you mean19:56
kanzuredgenr8: what's up?19:56
sipaby mix, do you mean coinjoin?19:57
dgenr8no, i mean creating value units in coinbases or the like, and not just by incoming transfers from BTC19:58
sipanative assets on a sidechain is something we're working on, yes19:59
sipanot sure what you mean by mixing19:59
dgenr8that the generated units are indistinguishable from or used equivalently to the incoming transferred units. ie new money supply created by and for ... someone20:00
sipawell they're a different asset class than BTC20:00
sipaif they're indistinguishable, you'd be creating a fractional reserve layer20:01
dgenr8last week i was chatting with a ripply guy. he expressed that he would be just fine with XRP, of which his company owns half the supply, becoming the dominant crypto currency20:01
sipathe amount of BTC in a sidechain must exactly match the amount pegged to it from the bitcoin chain, or you'd cause a "run on the sidechain" as the last people out would lose20:02
sipai hope that the design of sidechains makes such a thing unviable, as the pegged amounts on both sides is visible to everyone20:03
sipa*are20:03
dgenr8suppose the sidechain is really useful. because of improvements (that haven't been made to bitcoin). then the BTC units transferred there might be more valuable, even after dilution from money printing.20:05
sipawith a 2-way peg in place the value on both sides should be identical20:06
sipaor close to identical20:06
sipadue to the slow transfer there may be some arbitrage possible20:07
dgenr8hence my original question. will blockstream introduce sidechains that mix transferred BTC with generated native tokens?20:07
sipado you mean whether we plan to create a fraction reserve bitcoin in a sidechain? definitely not20:07
dgenr8how reassuring :)20:08
dgenr8hit kanzure20:08
dgenr8hi20:08
kanzurei know 18 forms of whatever CSW said, hitting me is ill advised20:08
sipaand i hope that the design of sidechains makes that impossible for anyone else who would want to try20:08
sipaat least it would have to be a transparent fractional reserve, where all users are aware of it20:09
kanzureit's ot really a concern because a federated signing model is not really useful in the same way that bitcoin is currently useful. so "it would be more valuable" is possible (in terms of market price) but it's also irrelevant -- lots of highly centralized bad ideas have a high market price, who cares.20:10
kanzure(and even if you strike "highly centralized" from my last message, i still think that a 10,000-signatory sidechain is still not encroaching on bitcoin value prop)20:11
kanzure(and perhaps some might think 10k-signatory/functionary is highly centralized anyway, hehe)20:11
dgenr8a sidechain as an altcoin that supports pegging, so pretty much the whole universe is open to it in terms of design. anyone disagree with that characterization?20:12
kanzurestrong disagree.   many forms of sidechain designs can be ill-advised . large chunks of universe are inaccessible from a design perspective.20:14
dgenr8s/as/is20:16
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maakukanzure what CSW said is only 9 forms/schools20:36
maakuAnd I actually am trained in them ;)20:37
kanzurehttps://twitter.com/sarahjeong/status/74498297034423501320:37
kanzureah i see, it's not 18 of ninjutsu. very well.20:37
kanzureanyway, off-topic.20:38
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