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| bsm1175321 | synero claims to have sharding and proof of stake. That's two easter bunnies in one project. Two too many. | 12:13 |
|---|---|---|
| bsm1175321 | I've been thinking a lot about sharding, and I know of no project that has anything remotely close to a workable idea. | 12:14 |
| fluffypony | Sharing seems like a very hard goal to securely satisfy | 12:15 |
| bsm1175321 | If you want to know what I think of PoS: https://blog.sldx.com/whats-wrong-with-proof-of-stake-77d4f370be15 | 12:15 |
| * bsm1175321 sells fluffypony a 'd' | 12:15 | |
| fluffypony | A d? | 12:16 |
| * bsm1175321 waits | 12:16 | |
| fluffypony | Oh | 12:16 |
| fluffypony | lol | 12:16 |
| bsm1175321 | Hahaaa | 12:16 |
| fluffypony | Sharing is caring after all | 12:17 |
| bsm1175321 | I'm going to wrap up my braiding project for Scaling Bitcoin in Milan, but after that I'm devoting my attention to sharding. It's the next major scaling obstacle. | 12:18 |
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| kanzure | http://blog.paralleluniverse.co/2016/07/23/correctness-and-complexity/ | 14:02 |
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| katu | i still feel uneasy about goedel and proof by exhaustion. once you exhaustively prove program is, in fact, correct, i'm not sure how the axiomatic self-referentiality comes into play. | 14:34 |
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| Taek | I hold the belief that sharding is about as viable as proof-of-stake | 15:07 |
| Taek | looked at it for a while around a year or so ago, and I couldn't convince myself that there's a way to trust something if you don't have all the data | 15:07 |
| Taek | perhaps with snarks | 15:07 |
| Taek | the problem is that with 100,000,000,000,000 transactions, all it takes is a single invalid transaction that you missed to corrupt everything | 15:09 |
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| Taek | If Coinbase were to execute a mammoth reorg (e.g. 25,000) blocks, how many coins could they recover that they've spent? | 16:28 |
| Taek | and, would that amount be enough cover the cost of the mammoth reorg (ignoring the fact that any mammoth reorg drives the price down immensley) | 16:28 |
| katu | selloff panic can be insured against, just short even higher amount than you invest in the reorg | 16:29 |
| smooth | There are a LOT more than 12.5 BTC moved per block | 16:29 |
| katu | Taek: however the reorg is no singular event. eventually you run out of capital to feed the 51% | 16:29 |
| katu | then what? | 16:29 |
| smooth | if you chain is longer at that point, then there is a good chance everyone continues to mine it | 16:30 |
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| katu | will they? current centralizing mining is ugly, but has some nice perks too | 16:30 |
| smooth | "good chance" | 16:30 |
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| katu | hmm, i think what taek means is the logistic issues, how to re-inject all the rolled back transactions to non-malicious branch? | 16:32 |
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| Taek | I'm pretty confident that if we ever saw a reorg over some large threshold (perhaps 2000 blocks, but perhaps it'd take all the way up to 10,000 blocks) there'd be a massive reaction from the dev+commerce+mining community where everyone got together and hardforked back to the previous chain | 16:32 |
| katu | unless something changed, bitcoin doesnt actually do that? | 16:32 |
| Taek | getting a hardfork would require support from everyone, but with an event that big, I think you'd have it | 16:33 |
| smooth | popcorn futures, not shorting, would be the play | 16:33 |
| katu | smooth: thats for sure :) | 16:33 |
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| so | how does sharding differ from atomic cross chain swaps? | 17:07 |
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| so | sidechain ~ shardchain | 17:09 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/sharding-the-blockchain/ | 17:10 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/vbuterin/scalability_paper/blob/master/scalability.pdf | 17:10 |
| kanzure | http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin/ | 17:10 |
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| so | for example, ethereum is a two-shard system right now | 17:48 |
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| bsm1175321 | I can't understand WTF the word salad by Vlad is about. | 18:01 |
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| so | hear hear | 18:03 |
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| so | bob, is the advantage of your impromptu sharding proposal that some nodes wouldn't need to store the entire chain? | 18:15 |
| so | or maybe the idea is that you'd propose simultaneously mining all partitions for N coinbases per block? | 18:16 |
| so | maybe there's a safe way to merge-mine with the right shard ratio | 18:21 |
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| amiller | what kind of security guarantees do you preserve, when nodes don't store the entire chain | 18:45 |
| amiller | do you still try to guarantee that all the chains are kept available and consistent | 18:45 |
| so | I'm assuming his impromptu proposal would mean they SPV and verify sometimes | 18:46 |
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| katu | bsm1175321: peter todd to the rescue, https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011817.html | 18:49 |
| katu | kanzure: http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin is dead | 18:49 |
| kanzure | blame bsm1175321 | 18:49 |
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| katu | damn that was fast | 18:50 |
| katu | well, whoever you are, it's still in google cache | 18:50 |
| kanzure | speed force, and such. | 18:53 |
| bsm1175321 | so: That's the definition of sharding, not having to retain the entire UTXO set. | 19:09 |
| so | isn't that also true of another chain? | 19:10 |
| so | or even a sidechain? | 19:10 |
| bsm1175321 | We moved our blog to Medium, the ELI5 of blogs: https://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin-e77bd5feebf5 | 19:10 |
| bsm1175321 | Medium insists on appending bullshit at the end of your URLs and preventing you from using most modern elements in your blog. (like SVG) | 19:11 |
| bsm1175321 | so: I'm not sure what you mean... | 19:11 |
| so | what can you accomplish with sharding that isn't accomplished with cross chain swaps? | 19:12 |
| bsm1175321 | Cross chain swaps are trading one asset for another -- the price floats. Sharding is a division of labor, there's no "price" associated with a "shard". | 19:13 |
| so | if the throughput is divided then some shards are weaker than others? why should they be equally valuable? | 19:15 |
| cjd | you could use a pegged price to make the sidechain effectively behave as a shard... | 19:16 |
| cjd | but the pegging stuff does not sound like it will work WRT incentives | 19:16 |
| cjd | basically without issuing a shitcoin, there is no incentive to mine - even a sidechain | 19:16 |
| so | for instance in ether the shard discussions seem to be related to the observation that they're running the same instructions on all machines, so maybe they could run a verification on a fraction as long as one verifier is honest | 19:17 |
| cjd | or 1 machine | 19:17 |
| cjd | but that's basically PoS in a nutshell since the creators of a PoS currency will just keep most of the coin anyway so they can run it | 19:18 |
| so | in the bitcoin context a similar set of observations lead to related chains or attempts to use the hash throughput more efficiently | 19:19 |
| cjd | there is a highly annoying realization that you can't proove against double-spends without paying an enormous amount on validation, and any validation which can be skipped will be | 19:21 |
| cjd | sidechains which are hard-pegged to BTC will not be merge-mined unless they somehow pay off the miners... This is assuming miners are selfish agents, which has been untrue in the past | 19:22 |
| bsm1175321 | shards wouldn't be equally "valuable" -- the idea is that if you're willing to contribute 1GB of disk space to the UTXO set, in a bitcoind node, you should be able to store and validate the corresponding fraction. | 19:36 |
| bsm1175321 | It's a pure CS problem, not an economic problem. How to incentize the shard holders is relevant as well. | 19:37 |
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| so | shard is then SPV++? | 19:37 |
| so | there are many ways to save space, though | 19:38 |
| bsm1175321 | In a way, yes. The hard part is proving to shard holders that the *rest* of the UTXO space is consistent/valid. | 19:38 |
| Taek | so: with sharding, ideally you can receive a payment from any shard and still know with absolute certainty that the payment is valid | 19:39 |
| Taek | but you don't have to validate every shard yourself, only a few of them | 19:39 |
| Taek | or maybe even none of them | 19:39 |
| Taek | maybe you validate some other piece of data that somehow allows you to believe that none of the shards have been compromised | 19:40 |
| so | look for andrew's question above | 19:40 |
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| Taek | Consistency is definintely a requirement | 19:41 |
| Taek | I hadn't really though about sacrificing availability to achieve sharding | 19:41 |
| Taek | oh, though eventually availability is definitely also a requirement | 19:42 |
| Taek | e.g. you can have temporary unavailability, but a permanently unavailable system is useless as a currency / store-of-value | 19:42 |
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| Taek | There was a paper (or maybe just a blog post?) recently that pointed out the fact that if your 6 confirmations take a long time, security is actually lower than if they take a short amount of time | 20:12 |
| Taek | because if they take a while, your theoretical attacker has more time to mine 6 competing confirmations | 20:12 |
| Taek | I would be grateful if someone could link me to that | 20:13 |
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| so | any slowdown suggests a drop in hashrate => less security | 20:20 |
| Taek | it's reasonable that the slowdown also happens just due to randomness, in this case security is also still reduced | 20:23 |
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