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| vega4 | In order to determine a valid blockchain BTC uses the concept of total expected worked spent on building a given chain; that seems clear and solid; now lets put on plate the subject of Coin Age. I'm confused. It seems that Peercoin utilizes Coin Age to determine a valid history of things. I wonder. If a currency uses Proof-Of-Stake to reach consenus, what prevents an attacker to generate branches with arbitrary timestam | 06:13 |
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| vega4 | is only valid for hybrid PoW/PoS mechanisms, as far as reaching consensus goes. | 06:13 |
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| FNinTak | Related to the sharding discussion - More efficient Proof of Space | 12:49 |
| FNinTak | http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/333.pdf | 12:49 |
| FNinTak | Related to sharding specifically because verifying these proofs requires non-trivial resources | 12:50 |
| FNinTak | Either the verifier also stores the full graph (which is massive), or | 12:51 |
| FNinTak | graph + path commitments are published and then opened; but even that is multiple MBs | 12:51 |
| FNinTak | However, in the context of a cryptocurrency, the graph is static - So sharding verification amongst full nodes/verifiers would be very useful | 12:52 |
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| vega4 | related to my own question - as of now, I can answer myself that PoS currencies introduce checkpoints broadcasted from a trusted authority, therefore just creating the illusion of being distributed. I'm ok with Bitcoin's PoW and their checkpoints it would be hard enough without these hardcoded checkpoints in BTC's case. | 12:57 |
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| rhett | Does anyone know if anything ever came of brahm cohen's idea for a proof of space coin? | 19:29 |
| rhett | Did anyone ever work out any good proof of space algorithms? | 19:30 |
| rhett | looks like there is burstcoin now | 19:39 |
| Taek | burstcoin is pretty old, from what I remember it's been inactive for over a year now | 20:00 |
| Taek | the closest thing is spacemint | 20:00 |
| Taek | but from what I remember they still have a handful of problems to sort out | 20:00 |
| Taek | rhett: I believe that spacemint is currenty state-of-the-art for proof of space | 20:01 |
| rhett | thanks Taek any idea what problems burstcoin or spacemint have? | 20:02 |
| Taek | Burstcoin most significantly had a computation-space tradeoff which I believe was significant. Aside from that, though I don't think anyone took the time to break their construction, I didn't get the impression that it would hold up to cryptanalysis | 20:03 |
| Taek | Spacemint I think also has a computation-space tradeoff, though they've taken steps to minimize how worthwhile it might be | 20:04 |
| Taek | From what I remember they depend on a trusted independent source of randomness, such as a NIST beacon | 20:04 |
| Taek | I know a few of the Spacement guys pop in here every once in a while, maybe one of them can talk to you about it | 20:05 |
| rhett | interesting, what are you working on ? | 20:06 |
| Taek | I spend most of my time working on a decentralized cloud storage platform called Sia | 20:06 |
| Taek | but I've also spent a fair amount of time recently on a DAG-based blockchain which I hope to speak about in the upcoming scaling bitcoin conference | 20:07 |
| Taek | it's not quite ready to publish yet, but I'm hoping to finish it in the next few days | 20:07 |
| Taek | I'm pretty much at the spell-check phase | 20:08 |
| rhett | Aren't all blockchains DAGs? | 20:11 |
| Taek | Bitcoin's blockchain is a strict subset, essentially a singly-linked list | 20:11 |
| Taek | I've adjusted the rules so that blocks can have multiple parents, without changing any of the security assumptions | 20:12 |
| rhett | sounds like git chain | 20:12 |
| rhett | i wonder how sia is different form storj coin, maidsafe, or ipfs | 20:13 |
| Taek | not quite | 20:13 |
| rhett | checking it out | 20:13 |
| Taek | http://forum.sia.tech/topic/107/interesting-threads | 20:13 |
| Taek | http://forum.sia.tech/topic/21/sia-vs-storj-vs-maidsafe | 20:13 |
| rhett | Is spacemint launched yet, or just a paper? | 20:28 |
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| katu | Taek: is there actually sound of PoS system out, or is it all fluff. im not fatching proof of erasure closely anymore, so if anything changed | 20:49 |
| katu | (last time i checked everything was just marketing crap a'la gridcoin, with the exception of maybe burst which at least tried, despite various technical flaws) | 20:49 |
| katu | ah, sia is just contracts too, so the same as rest of the bunch. | 20:51 |
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| rhett | I think this is the latest update on spacemint https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint | 20:59 |
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| FNinTak | rhett: katu: I posted a more efficient Proof-of-Space algorithm here a few hours ago | 21:18 |
| FNinTak | which could be used in a coin like spacemint; it's an improvement on their Proof-of-Space | 21:19 |
| rhett | neat, link FNinTak ? | 21:19 |
| FNinTak | http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/333.pdf | 21:19 |
| rhett | or spacemint isn't a coin yet, is it? | 21:19 |
| FNinTak | I've talked to the author about coming around the channel, so he should be in soon | 21:20 |
| FNinTak | Spacemint is a paper that specs out a coin yes, but afaik there are no active plans to launch it | 21:21 |
| rhett | I wonder why not | 21:22 |
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| FNinTak | It's a non-trivial task, doesn't exactly fit in the standard academic plan | 21:26 |
| FNinTak | though I will say their whitepaper is imo the best I've seen for a novel cryptocurrency | 21:28 |
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| Taek | katu: Sia derives consensus from proof of wrok | 21:49 |
| Taek | *work | 21:49 |
| Taek | to the best of my knowledge, there is no proof-of-stake nor proof-of-storage (PoS is ambiguous) system that is widely accepted as having security comprable to bitcoin | 21:50 |
| katu | FNinTak: PoSpace in and itself isnt that hard | 21:50 |
| katu | graph pebbling is unnecesary complication in fact | 21:50 |
| katu | FNinTak: trouble is what to do with it next. you usually get inevitable NaS | 21:51 |
| Taek | maybe we should call it consensus-by-storage. | 21:51 |
| Taek | given that there are useful applications to proving that you have storage capacity outside of forming decentralized consensus | 21:51 |
| katu | and if you want to store useful data, while also giving "mining" rewards for proving you store some data, you get nasty incentives | 21:52 |
| Taek | the biggest problem there in my opinion is that there's no way to distinguish useful data from computationally generated data | 21:54 |
| katu | Taek: why theres not | 21:54 |
| katu | thats task of PoSpace | 21:54 |
| Taek | encrypted useful data is indistinguishable from fully random data | 21:54 |
| katu | simple arlgorithm is simple hard to reverse bilinear mapping | 21:54 |
| Taek | and data generated via H(i || secret key) is also indistinguishable from fully random data | 21:55 |
| Taek | if I am tasked with storing data that I know how to generate, I can cheat the storage and just generate what is needed when asked to build a proof | 21:55 |
| katu | Taek: again, this is solved via multiple algorithms | 21:56 |
| katu | they are not obvious, but its not a hard problem | 21:56 |
| Taek | do you have a link to a paper? | 21:56 |
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| katu | no. but you're familiar how bilinear mapping work? | 21:56 |
| katu | have bilinear mapping function as one way hash. use that in burstcoin instead of their silly hash method, stretch the result into staggers | 21:57 |
| Taek | I am as of looking at the wikipedia page on it. heh | 21:57 |
| katu | in your proof you then include collapsed merkle path to the chunk you found (with winning "difficulty"). it must of course refer previous OP_STORE, which, when encrypted with same bilinear mapping proves you had this chunk stored (after prolonged computation of it) | 21:58 |
| Taek | ok. I don't fully understand. What data does the prover end up storing? | 21:59 |
| katu | wait, i might have a writeup somewhere | 22:02 |
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| katu | Taek: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/katlogic/e88caab984bfd1f59fa80015248f9417/raw/9729847c8132892278ae323030a6fef88b4a882f/gistfile1.txt | 22:48 |
| katu | had to write it from scratch | 22:48 |
| katu | its still probably incomprehensible | 22:48 |
| Taek | reading now | 22:51 |
| Taek | ok, so it's difficult to cheat b/c when storing data, you have to search for E, which is computationally feasible but not cheap | 22:54 |
| Taek | to cheat, you would have to search for E many times, and storing is cheaper than doing so much searching | 22:54 |
| Taek | is what I've gathered | 22:54 |
| katu | yes. you can either store 2^24 Es, or bruteforce *each attempt*. note that this algorithm is not efficient enough for initial stores to perform realistically. | 22:56 |
| Taek | thanks for taking the time to write it up :) | 22:57 |
| katu | real world algorithm would share Es between OP_STOREs with different RIs, thus multiplying the 'stored' factor by more than 2^24 | 22:57 |
| katu | (that is, the inverted map would be shared for chunks with different RIs) | 22:58 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Sep 12 00:00:52 2016 | ||
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