2016-09-12.log

--- Log opened Mon Sep 12 00:00:52 2016
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jcorganhttps://eprint.iacr.org/2016/871.pdf04:40
jcorganBlockchain-Free Cryptocurrencies. A Rational Framework for Truly Decentralised Fast Transactions04:40
jcorganonly recently published but i wonder if there has been any discussion here or elsewhere on it04:41
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jcorganit's basic concept is to apply cumulative PoW to chains of transactions, and to separate the PoW DAG from the currency transaction DAG04:43
cjdjust read the abstract but my first reaction: 1. chained transactions were thought of before blocks but blocks were implemented because of valid reasons  2. those names I don't recognize from the bitcoin world so I'm concerned that possibly they're academics without a lot of knowledge about this specific technology04:43
jcorgansure, i get that04:44
jcorganbut the paper seems rather well written inspite of that04:44
* nsh frowns04:45
cjdwe've seen some really silly papers before -- specifically I recall one from Microsoft which "described a problem that doesn't exist and then solved it poorly"04:46
jcorganmy first takeaway is that it describes a steady state operation but not how a node would start from zero and get to that point04:47
jcorgani need to re-read it in detail, but, time04:48
cjdthe 2 super annoying problems in my mind are:  #1 blockchains must be slow because it takes time before you are sure that the chain can't be rolled back, this is basically true of anything with proof of work because you have to wait for the work to happen.04:50
cjd#2 the cost of moving small amounts of money may be limited but the cost of moving enormous bank-size amounts of money (and being sure that it is not being double-spent) is enormous04:51
cjdsay you're moving 10 trillion dollars, it's actually worth it to try to 51% attack bitcoin for that kind of money04:52
nsh2.  Works on an open model, empowering individuals.04:52
* nsh is sold04:52
nshthis is a terrible proposal. i'd love to see it implemented04:52
nshi'm glad for a system to fail when one signature is able to move 10 trillion dollars04:52
cjdI think SWIFT does this pretty much daily04:52
cjdand Bitcoin is ar superior to SWIFT because you don't need friends of friends who have big credit lines with one another in order to transfer money04:53
nshi don't think replicating terribly insecure centralised transfers is the best ambition04:53
jcorganok, well, hate to post PDFs and run, but first day of grcon16 awaits04:53
nshenjoy!04:53
cjdif you want to wire a huge amount of money, there are actually liquidity problems at the forex level04:54
nshthere should be04:54
nshthere are flow-theoretical realities that we should recognise and not attempt to obviate04:55
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cjdFEDWIRE is able to move massive amounts of money because it is like bitcoin in that the Federal Reserve simply credits the difference to the appropriate account04:55
nsh(else the turbulent effects are merely externalised)04:55
cjds/massive/arbitrary/04:56
cjdSWIFT is merely a messaging system, you need to have banks with big enough credit relations that they can pick a route where there is enough liquidity to execute your transfer, similar to lightning network04:57
cjdit's fast but it's a pain04:57
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kanzure"Smarter signatures: Experiments in verifications" https://github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/ID2020DesignWorkshop/blob/master/final-documents/smarter-signatures.pdf15:05
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nehaFNinTak: Spacemint was invented by Sunoo Park, who is a "she" not a "he"16:56
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luke-jrit occurs to me that we'd have essentially MAST already if we had gone with OP_EVAL..17:49
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amillerhi neha18:58
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FNinTakneha: was referencing the author of the PoSpace paper I posted earlier, not the SpaceMint author19:18
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katuFNinTak: NaS (nothing at stake) https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf19:38
katuwith PoSpace it gets worse, because you dont need to hoard to long range attack the chain, all you need is to be 51% miner at any time to start long range attack until you catch up to the tip.19:40
FNinTakhoard? No ownership of currency required for a long range attack19:42
FNinTakI think you're referencing the problem gmaxwell brought up earlier, which is that b/c "hashrate" is not directly dependent on energy usage attacks are cheaper and development of specialized hardware more plausible19:44
katuyea, i probably mislabel long range here. anyhow, the point is that with PoS youre at least capped by capital19:44
katubut with pospace youre not19:44
katuyes19:44
katuthats all category of NaS19:44
katucostless simulation etc19:44
FNinTakCapped wrt. how long this attack could be? there is some non-trivial energy cost, based on energy consumption of memory/storage medium19:45
FNinTakthough it is much lower than that of hashing, it is non-zero19:45
katuno, all pospaces have "fast proof", all you need is to be beefy miner *for a while*19:46
katuto outpace chain growth including history to the past youre starting at19:46
katuanyhow, that can be fixed by getting PoW oracle, which can possibly be external, though not really sure about that yet19:48
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FNinTakI don't see how that doesn't also apply to Bitcoin...yes mining is cheaper wrt. energy and this lowers the cost of attack, assuming you already have state-of-the-art hardware20:24
katuFNinTak: you can't grind in bitcoin. in bitcoin it takes a while to get a block.20:27
katupospace and pos is instant.20:27
katuthis is why you need oracle20:27
katuanyhow, read the nas paper20:27
katu(in pospace not really "instant" - youre capped by your disk bw, but is definitely not something you want to put bets on)20:29
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