| --- Log opened Tue Sep 20 00:00:59 2016 | ||
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| bsm1175321 | I've been thinking a lot about the collision between tumblers and double-spends. A double-spender could do a lot of harm, by causing his txn to be mixed with innocent non-double spenders. | 00:56 |
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| bsm1175321 | Basically, that a mixer participant can cheaply force a reorg of a bunch of transactions that have nothing to do with the double-spend. So, users of remixers should probably take this into account when considering whether their transaction is "confirmed" -- the probability of a reorg is higher, when the payer is using a mixer. | 01:02 |
| nsh | heh | 01:08 |
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| Taek | that's a good point. | 01:20 |
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| katu | bsm1175321: try to think about profit motive. what would double spender gain from this? | 01:43 |
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| nsh | disruption of fixing is an end in itself to certain actors | 01:44 |
| nsh | *mixing | 01:45 |
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| katu | for starters, you dont have control how the mix tx propagates | 01:45 |
| katu | as everyone broadcasts it | 01:45 |
| katu | second, you can join the mix pool and simply don't reply to DoS | 01:45 |
| katu | im assuming coinjoin type mixers | 01:46 |
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| bsm1175321 | My argument is that *any* double-spend by any other remixer participant turns your txn into a double-spend. | 01:51 |
| nsh | contagion? | 01:53 |
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| katu | bsm1175321: yes, the mix tx can definitely revert | 01:53 |
| katu | but same can happen even without doublespend | 01:53 |
| katu | i just dont see any point | 01:53 |
| katu | *unless* somebody is so retarded to "penalize" doublespends | 01:53 |
| katu | which is completely and utterly hopeless | 01:54 |
| bsm1175321 | Good point. Well I've been thinking about braids/dags in which the double-spend can be detected/reverted without polluting everything else in the block. | 01:54 |
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| nsh | 'Tezos is the first, and only blockchain implementation operating with decentralized governance.' -- https://tezos.com/ | 02:05 |
| nsh | (generally the cryptographic or security engineering competency of an altcoin is inversely proportional to the flashiness of the web presence) | 02:05 |
| bsm1175321 | Can it also ask voters if they know dick all about software engineering or crypto? | 02:06 |
| nsh | :) | 02:06 |
| bsm1175321 | I typed to slow, nsh beat me to the punchline. | 02:06 |
| nsh | these guys look like language/typesystem wonks. might be vaguely interesting :) | 02:06 |
| katu | nsh: im still waiting for nomic blockchain | 02:06 |
| katu | is that it? | 02:06 |
| nsh | as in the game nomic? | 02:07 |
| katu | yea, this looks like a nomic | 02:07 |
| katu | but sadly not for consensus rules | 02:07 |
| katu | boring | 02:07 |
| nsh | there was a proposal for a blockchain where the consensus or other logic was alterable by participants | 02:07 |
| nsh | not sure i recall enough to find it again quickly though | 02:07 |
| bsm1175321 | There's this bizarre notion out there that if we just "poll the sheeple" everything will turn out okay, right?!?!? Let me introduce you to my friend, Byzantine... | 02:08 |
| nsh | allowing for stability to arise from a dynamic-equilibrium-finding process rather than a priori engineering is an interesting idea | 02:08 |
| nsh | and possible viable | 02:08 |
| katu | nsh: yea, its a pretty tough thing to implement | 02:08 |
| katu | as you need the ability to restart from old forks when current consensus decides to jump back in time (because everybody agreed current rules just screwed the utxo) | 02:09 |
| katu | and it gets all sorts of self referential, quite not unlike various PoS attacks | 02:09 |
| nsh | as natural languages evolve through usage and affect-charge accrual and results in partial and overlapping covering sets of roughly-consensuated meaning, it's not inconceivable at least | 02:09 |
| bsm1175321 | Systems do not, in general, to find dynamic equilibrium. Even the simple predator/prey problem has very unpredictable behavior. | 02:09 |
| nsh | but there's a lot more wiggle-room in how a sentence is parsed than how a transaction is processed | 02:10 |
| * nsh nods | 02:10 | |
| nsh | utterance i should say, to avoid literalism | 02:10 |
| adlai | there's zennet/tauchain, also the project of typesystem monks | 02:10 |
| nsh | hmm | 02:10 |
| katu | tezos src looks fun though | 02:12 |
| katu | the amendable consensus code is proposed in ml, switch on majority. it all suffers from horrible NaS-like problems | 02:13 |
| katu | but better than playing a nomic over mailing list i suppose :) | 02:14 |
| bsm1175321 | They seem to really dislike a "roundtable", whatever that is... | 02:16 |
| bsm1175321 | I can only assume they meant round-robin... | 02:18 |
| bsm1175321 | Or maybe duck-duck-goose? | 02:18 |
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| vega4 | R.I.P asics,well, at least when they tweak the quantum gates just a little more http://fortune.com/2016/08/07/programable-quantum-computer/ | 06:42 |
| cjd | and when they get from 5 qbits to a few thousand | 06:47 |
| cjd | word on the street is it's a few decades off | 06:47 |
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| NewLiberty | We don't even know enough about what quantum computing will do to determine what algos might not succumb to it. | 08:02 |
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| wumpus | I don't know about you, but I'm getting quite sick of all the 'oh no all current cryptosystems are dead' quantum-computing related FUD, I'd wish they'd either just get the thing working or shut up about it until I'm dead :) | 08:11 |
| sipa | Quantun computing is trading exponential runtime for exponential engineering time. | 08:15 |
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| Eliel | sipa: I might want to quote that someday somewhere :) | 08:20 |
| sipa | i don't know from whom i got ot | 08:21 |
| wumpus | yes good quote | 08:22 |
| sipa | it may also turn out to be completely false | 08:23 |
| cjd | lol excellent quote | 08:24 |
| sipa | i'm sure decades ago people thought the same about traditional computing chip design | 08:26 |
| Eliel | I suppose the computing chip turned out to be useful in improving computing chips faster | 08:28 |
| cjd | yup HDL language | 08:28 |
| kanzure | is speculative exccution an improvement though? hehe | 08:29 |
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| nsh | it's possible that quantum algorithmics requires a jump in human mathematical or physical understanding or intuition that technological and materials science accelerating gains cannot provide | 09:18 |
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| gmaxwell | petertodd: https://www.imperialviolet.org/2016/09/19/roughtime.html hohoho. | 11:14 |
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| gmaxwell | "oh crap, people turned our time server into a cryptocurrency." | 11:15 |
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| bsm117532 | FWIW, the best possible inherent resolution of bitcoin, braids, or a similar system as a clock is given by the time to cross the network (aka orphan rate), so ~5s (due to Bitcoin's randomly interconnected p2p network). A bit of averaging heuristics could get this down below a second, but not a heck of a lot better than that. | 11:20 |
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| bsm117532 | Come join us tomorrow to discuss Rootstock if you're in NYC: https://www.meetup.com/BitDevsNYC/events/234098435/ | 11:24 |
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| petertodd | gmaxwell: interesting! I actually proposed that a few years back on the cyrptography mailing list | 11:37 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: although, I proposed the version w/ opentimestamps so it could scale indefinitely | 11:38 |
| petertodd | gmaxwell: ah, I see, yeah, they're doing a merkle tree too - good | 11:38 |
| bsm117532 | How many "honest" roughtime servers are required? How many roughtime servers does an attacker need to spin up to usefully modify someone's clock? And what's the cost of that? | 11:43 |
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| kanzure | "Very briefly: using some tricks we believe that it's viable to deploy servers that sign a client-chosen nonce and timestamp on demand. Once you have several of these servers, clients can generate their nonces by hashing replies from other servers with some entropy. That proves that a nonce was created after the reply was received. Clients maintain a chain of nonces and replies and, if a server misbehaves, can use replies from several ... | 11:49 |
| kanzure | ... other servers to prove and report it." | 11:49 |
| kanzure | some more lightning routing stuff https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2016-September/000616.html | 11:50 |
| bsm117532 | What's the consequence of "reporting it"? It seems this scheme easily falls to a sybil attack. | 11:50 |
| petertodd | bsm117532: they're trusted servers, not anonymous junk | 11:50 |
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| petertodd | bsm117532: same security model as certificate transparency | 11:51 |
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| petertodd | bsm117532: https://roughtime.googlesource.com/roughtime/+/HEAD/ECOSYSTEM.md | 11:53 |
| bsm117532 | The economic cost of introducing a false timestamp in Bitcoin is superior to their vauge notion of an ecosystem of trusted servers and human auditing of fraud proofs, IMHO. | 11:56 |
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| petertodd | bsm117532: yeah, but they're aiming for 10 second accuracy; bitcoin's accuracy is more like hours | 12:39 |
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| bsm117532 | That time resolution has absolutely nothing to do with a security model. | 12:57 |
| cjd | 10 second accuracy, that's pretty nice | 12:59 |
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| petertodd | bsm117532: yes it does - 10 second accuracy probably can't be done in a decentralized system like Bitcoin | 13:04 |
| cjd | annoyingly we could just have one really honest guy sign all of the bitcoin blocks and if he ever signed a double-spend you could prove it | 13:06 |
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| maaku | I nominate Bob. | 17:46 |
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