--- Log opened Mon Oct 26 00:00:58 2020
00:54 < az0re> <HelloShitty> Can I connect to friend's A node and open a channel, and then, he opens another channel with me?
00:54 < az0re> With c-lightning, no, with other LN implementations, yes
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01:13 < az0re> Within the scope of a single channel, my understanding is it's like this: I (A) talk to my friend (B) and I tell him I want to make a channel.  To do this either or both of us need to commit some funds for the purpose of the channel.  Suppose A commits 1 BTC and B commits nothing.  A and B cooperate and create a 2-of-2 multisig P2WSH address (the funding address) and both A and B sign a transaction that sends 1BTC back to A and nothing to B.  A 
01:13 < az0re> spends 1 BTC to that funding address.  From then on payments can occur in either direction in this channel, so long as the payer has "channel capacity".  In this case, suppose A pays B 0.1BTC.  They do a complicated HTLC dance with the end result that they both have a signed transaction giving each their respective channel amounts minus fees (in this case 0.9BTC to A and 0.1BTC to B), and also some revocation transactions that, in case A tries 
01:13 < az0re> to spend that old transaction that sends all 1BTC to A, B can use that mutually-signed revocation transaction gotten as part of the 0.1BTC payment to instead claim *all* the channel funds as a penalty to A for trying to cheat.  In order to do this there must be some delay period after an onchain settlement transaction ("commitment transaction") that allows the publication of that revocation transaction.  It also requires the party being cheated 
01:14 < az0re> to be online within that delay period in order to see the cheating attempt and spend that revocation transaction.
01:14 < az0re> HelloShitty ^
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02:18 <@cdecker> az0re: that's not qutite correct: the party opening the TCP connection does not have to be the funder, so it is possible for A to connect to B and then B open the channel
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02:45 < liberliver> Hi. I have one channel in state CHANNELD_SHUTTING_DOWN for weeks and I don't see sats in my utxo onchain. How I could debug situation? Counternode is offline for year, I know it for sure, so I decided to close channel.
02:53 <@cdecker> liberliver: you can look up the closing txid with `listpeers` (should be called `scratch_txid`, which always holds the last signed tx, which is the closing in case of a shutdown
02:54 <@cdecker> `listpeers` will also tell you in `status` what it is waiting for
02:54 < liberliver> cdecker: okay. thanks for suggestion!
02:54 <@cdecker> If it hasn't sent a closing txid yet, we can try forcing the close to be a unilateral
02:55 <@cdecker> `lightning-cli [nodeid] 60` will give the peer 60 seconds to reply, otherwise it'll close unilaterally (don't put 0 seconds, since that means wait forever)
02:58 < liberliver> It hasn't sent. listpeers shows "CHANNELD_SHUTTING_DOWN:Attempting to reconnect" so i guess the channel is a zombie channel now
03:03 < m-schmoock> then try force closing, which is the only option if the remote is no longer around
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03:10 <@cdecker> Yep, give it a timeout and it should close that channel unilaterally
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03:11 < liberliver> cdecker: did you mean `lightning-cli ping [nodeid] 60` ?
03:12 <@cdecker> No, `lightning-cli close [nodeid] 60`, sorry didn't see that omission in my previous msg 
03:12 < liberliver> By the way it is my second attempt to do  `close short_chan_id` and as in the first time it hangs indifinitely 
03:12 < liberliver> Okay
03:12 <@cdecker> Yeah, close has a 2 day timeout, so it'll hang for up to that time
03:12 <@cdecker> That's us trying to be nice and save on closing fees ^^
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03:13 < liberliver> Oh. Important detail. Thank you very much!
03:14 < liberliver> magic. closed now
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04:08 < m-schmoock> cdecker: will be more responsive once we have the cli progressbars rusty was working on
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05:29 < m-schmoock> Rebased feat: add channel closure details
05:29 < m-schmoock> #4126 
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05:43 < jasan> Is it easy to patch lightningd so that it disables in-memory logging?
05:44  * jasan is just wondering... if the in-memory log is the most memory hungry, people from No-log the Log kingdom may want to disable it...
05:47  * jasan did a bit broken reference to Noggin The Nog
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07:51 < HelloShitty> az0re: hope when i get home,i still have yoyr repky here
07:51 < HelloShitty> i'm at work and can't spend rhe time for reading
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10:17 < az0re> cdecker: Right, thanks for the correction
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14:25 < HelloShitty> Evening
14:25 < HelloShitty> This is still I bit confusing, about opening the channels and figuring who has what, in terms of inbound an outbound capacity
14:25 < HelloShitty> But I do theoretically understand the mechanism, I guess
14:26 < HelloShitty> Many how to's and tutorials and articles simply use a very superficial example of Alice and Bob opening a channel and sending funds to each other etc
14:26 < HelloShitty> but there are very superficial details/questions that remains unanswered
14:28 < HelloShitty> For instance, when az0re says "A and B cooperate and create a 2-of-2 multisig P2WSH address..."
14:28 < HelloShitty> Isn't this done under the hood or the parties must do it explicitely?
14:29 < HelloShitty> Signing the transaction that sends 1BTC to that multi-sig address isn't also something ineherent to the protocol or do the parties need to do it explicitely?
14:32 < HelloShitty> Also, the statement "A and B sign a transaction that sends back to A 1BTC" Is this when (and if) the channel is closed and no other transactions where made (aka the balance of the channel remains unchanged) or is this some special scneario???
14:33 < HelloShitty> All these questions arises because I have the feeling (so far) that, at least with c-lightning, when you open a channel, all these that was stated by az0re happens automaticlly under the hood
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15:24 <@niftynei> yes, clightning handles the management of any off-chain bitcoin transactions and revocations etc that you need to manage when running a lightning channel
15:25 <@niftynei> as well as network connections to peers, gossip receipt and propagation, route finding for payments, forwarding payments, etc
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16:04 < az0re> HelloShitty: Yes, channel management is handled automatically.  Before you open and fund a channel with c-lightning, you transfer some BTC/put some UTXOs in c-lightning's internal wallet.  Then you can tell it to fund a channel to a given node and, assuming you can connect to that peer, it will handle the protocol details like creating the funding address and also handle transferring the right amount of BTC to it.
16:04 < az0re> <HelloShitty> Also, the statement "A and B sign a transaction that sends back to A 1BTC" Is this when (and if) the channel is closed and no other transactions where made (aka the balance of the channel remains unchanged) or is this some special scneario???
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16:05 < az0re> This is called the "commitment transaction" and is supposed to remain unpublished so long as the channel is open.  If either party suddenly broadcasts it to put it on the blockchain, that is called a "unilateral close" and no further transactions can be conducted on that channel.
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16:08 < az0re> If either party tries to broadcast an old commitment transaction that transfers that party more BTC than they currently have a right to, then the other party has the recourse to broadcast a revocation transaction within a certain time period after the appearance of the old commitment tx
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 27 00:00:58 2020