--- Log opened Sun Nov 08 00:00:10 2020 00:36 -!- felixweis [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yoznkhpkwdxatxsg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xsmtlxhhfuereiur] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37 -!- RubenSomsen [sid301948@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhglvnghwhhrcoaz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:37 -!- fjahr [sid374480@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kcxsrwowfbyaekxq] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:38 -!- Galvas [sid459296@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ipqkxswlypxugpkj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:52 -!- Galvas [sid459296@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qtivufnnljemrlvp] has joined #c-lightning 00:52 -!- fjahr [sid374480@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-idmozsqtyjsaymjn] has joined #c-lightning 00:52 -!- felixweis [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-curwonbkjuaxtcmu] has joined #c-lightning 00:53 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bcdyergbjtrujjkk] has joined #c-lightning 01:01 -!- RubenSomsen [sid301948@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xiafkyvtjtuehoop] has joined #c-lightning 01:12 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bcdyergbjtrujjkk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:15 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hkocgilrzifhqwvt] has joined #c-lightning 01:47 -!- reallll is now known as belcher 01:50 -!- jasan [~jasan@bigshort.bublina.eu.org] has joined #c-lightning 02:00 -!- Galvas [sid459296@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qtivufnnljemrlvp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00 -!- Galvas [sid459296@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xysgxmoclwsvmqxp] has joined #c-lightning 02:05 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-121.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:08 -!- vasild_ [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #c-lightning 02:11 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:11 -!- vasild_ is now known as vasild 03:29 -!- HelloShitty [~narayan@bl20-171-222.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #c-lightning 03:33 -!- liberliver [~Thunderbi@144.49.211.130.bc.googleusercontent.com] has joined #c-lightning 03:34 -!- liberliver [~Thunderbi@144.49.211.130.bc.googleusercontent.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:13 -!- mrostecki_ [~mrostecki@gateway/tor-sasl/mrostecki] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:10 < jasan> Just tried to move my testnet c-lightning node to another host and see most of the channels were unilaterally closed by the other side. Stopped the moved lightningd and started again the original one, just to not lose all the (testnet!) channels. I did it as an experiment because at some point there may be a need to do it. What do you think about such move? Is there any documentation with 05:10 < jasan> recommended steps I should read? 05:26 -!- jonatack [~jon@134.19.179.27] has quit [Quit: jonatack] 05:31 -!- zmnscpxj__ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35 < darosior> Huge footgun, i personally lost channels two times in this process (systemd autorestart looking at you) and not testnet ones.. 05:35 < darosior> In any way restarting the old ones after have started the new one is going to make you lose money, as you make the state diverge. 05:35 < darosior> Eventually succeeded on several moves but you need to triple checks your old node could not have moved its state forward (pretty freaky tbh) 05:35 -!- jonatack [~jon@88.124.242.136] has joined #c-lightning 05:40 < jasan> no systemd here :) 05:40 -!- jonatack [~jon@88.124.242.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:41 < jasan> Let's assume it's doing exactly what it is told: 05:41 -!- jonatack [~jon@213.152.162.114] has joined #c-lightning 05:41 < jasan> 1. rsync -av remote:.lightningd . 05:41 < jasan> 2. ssh remote and stop lightningd 05:42 < jasan> 3. adjust run script on new host to advertise correct addresses 05:42 < jasan> 4. start lightningd on new host 05:43 < jasan> What's the problem in above? ^^ 06:10 < m-schmoock> hey, has anyone already evaluated whats needed and whats already done to have a lightning-pool plugin for c-lughtning ? ( https://lightning.engineering/posts/2020-11-02-lightning-pool/ ) 06:11 < m-schmoock> or is someone working on this? 06:15 * jasan not 06:16 < m-schmoock> gonna read the whiepaper first. But since its a LND plugin I dont see why we couldn't make a compatible one 06:18 < jasan> reading now, thanks for link m-schmoock ! 06:34 <@cdecker> jasan: you managed to kill your channels by inverting two steps: stop lightningd first, then move it. If you let lightningd run while copying it can cause a state transition that is not picked up by the moved copy, and so we inadvertently go back in the commitments, which is cheating from the remote point of view 06:35 < jasan> cdecker: thanks!!! 06:36 * jasan will repeat the experiment 06:36 <@cdecker> I'd actually add a "disable old host" step in there: stop lightning, move it's data directory so we can't accidentally restart it, and only then copy the node over to the new host 06:37 < jasan> fair enough 06:38 < jasan> but in other words it means also that if one is doing rsync backups while lightningd node is running, they are worthless 06:38 < jasan> which is a good lesson 06:40 < jasan> (hsm_secret is not good to have in the backup, though) 06:40 * jasan has not went through the related recent issue, apologies 06:46 < jasan> m-schmoock: Thanks for fixing the cppcheck thing. Our Travis is on Ubuntu 18 which has an older version of cppcheck. 06:47 < jasan> m-schmoock: see https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/issues/4167 for reference 06:48 < m-schmoock> :D 06:50 -!- blockstream_bot [blockstrea@gateway/shell/sameroom/x-zzgbwiizjmpgirfq] has left #c-lightning [] 06:50 -!- blockstream_bot [blockstrea@gateway/shell/sameroom/x-zzgbwiizjmpgirfq] has joined #c-lightning 07:28 -!- zmnscpxj__ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #c-lightning 08:18 <@cdecker> They are not only worthless, they are outright dangerous 08:19 <@cdecker> This is why we added the `db_write` hook, which enables backup plugins that are aware of the caveats and do interactive backups 08:22 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-169.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #c-lightning 08:35 <@cdecker> See here for an example: https://github.com/lightningd/plugins/tree/master/backup 08:45 -!- az0re [~az0re@gateway/tor-sasl/az0re] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55 < jasan> rusty: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/pull/4179 please have a look. I think it should not be merged as it is right now. Lisa's change is OK, your change adds something I was starting with in https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/pull/4088 before I realized it works well (and backwards compatible) with adding '-wallet="something"' to utils.py 10:06 -!- az0re [~az0re@gateway/tor-sasl/az0re] has joined #c-lightning 10:58 -!- zmnscpxj__ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59 -!- masterdonx2 [~masterdon@45.9.249.246] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in] 10:59 -!- MasterdonX [~masterdon@45.9.249.246] has joined #c-lightning 10:59 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has joined #c-lightning 11:03 * jasan just got to https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/issues/4181 - regarding backups... 11:23 -!- wxss [~user@mail.deeplinkmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48 <@niftynei> m-schmook: i looked throught the pool paper. i didn't make an exhaustive list, but a few things are 1) updating the commitment tx output scripts to include the CSV/CLTV(?) for the 'guaranteed channel duration' (and some flag to signal that this is expected?), a way to fetch/inject the expected pubkey for the funding output (+ commitment txs?) 12:51 <@niftynei> fundchannel-start/fundchannel-complete gives you a way to signal the expected funding txid and output number, but it's lacking the needed key signaling ability 12:51 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has joined #c-lightning 12:53 <@niftynei> also unclear on how the remote peer signaling works wrt expecting a channel from a peer with a given key + additional locktime 12:55 <@niftynei> it's definitely not *just* an "LND plugin" 13:00 <@niftynei> iiuc from an 'accounting' perspective, keeping track of what funds you've earned through pool liquidity offerings is external to the channel dynamics (since the fees are paid/updated in a separate account you keep with the auctioneer). to get a full picture of your net-gain from the liquidity you'll need a separate utility to track 'auction house funds' 13:01 <@niftynei> and then ideally a way to marry those back in to the routing fees earned on the channel 13:03 <@niftynei> i'm not sure how good the documentation is on the pool APIs. plus there's the additional auctioneer account utxos to keep track of... 13:03 <@niftynei> not a small project :P 13:06 -!- ksedgwic [~ksedgwic@157-131-253-103.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:08 < m-schmoock> jasan: wow, that guy lost 1BTC on lnd °_° 13:08 < m-schmoock> shit 13:08 <@niftynei> the complexity of the implementation isn't a bad choice tho in terms of lock-in -- it's not going to be replicated by anyone anytime soon so if you want to participate you'll need to be running lnd 13:10 <@niftynei> but maybe i'm overstating the complexity required to do a de minimus client /shrug 13:13 <@niftynei> so maybe a high level list is something like: taker/maker APIs (clightning-auctioneer), taker/maker RPCs (user-clightning), commitment tx script updates, fundchannel_start 'shim' (taker/maker perspective), auctioneer utxo account mgmt 13:17 -!- ksedgwic [~ksedgwic@157-131-253-103.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #c-lightning 13:17 -!- polydin [~george@136.49.254.169] has joined #c-lightning 13:18 <@niftynei> oh i forgot all of the round-robin tx signing for the open txs. 13:19 < m-schmoock> niftynei: thx for looking at it 13:19 <@niftynei> on the bright side, we've probably got all of the PSBT related utilities that you'd need to use the c-lightning wallet funds for tx signing etc 13:19 < m-schmoock> do you think its worth the effort? 13:20 < m-schmoock> sounds like funy though :D 13:21 < m-schmoock> *fun 13:21 <@niftynei> that is a very good question 13:21 < m-schmoock> understanding the pool API is surely not a hard part 13:22 < m-schmoock> I will also have a deeper look coming days 13:22 <@niftynei> having access to Pools with c-lightning would definitely be desirable, me thinks 13:22 <@niftynei> Pools + CLBOSS is a heady thought ;) 13:23 <@niftynei> i agree, understading the Pool API will probably not be the most challenging part of the project. replicating it accurately on the other hand 13:23 < m-schmoock> lightning-labs just reinvented defi for real and nobody just noticed yet 13:23 <@niftynei> did they though? 13:24 < m-schmoock> > did they though? thought what? 13:24 < m-schmoock> *though ah 13:24 < m-schmoock> sry, non native speaker 13:24 <@niftynei> "reinvent defi" -- idk i gave a talk on liquidity pools for lightning last year in berlin 13:25 < m-schmoock> yes but they kicked the ball of I guess 13:25 < m-schmoock> Im so sad I missed the event in Berlin 13:26 <@niftynei> the auction mechanics of Pool is definitely a win 13:28 <@niftynei> they traded off decentralization, but honestly i think most users will appreciate the guarantees that having a centralized auctioneer/node ratings/trading account balances get you 13:33 <@niftynei> dual funding will enable a more decentralized form of liqiudity advertisement. the barrier to entry will be lower in terms of implementation/participation (no need to lock-up funds with an auctioneer, no node ranking system) but there's no centralized 'price discovery' mechanism and no way to guarantee that an advertised rate is actually current (or at what level of capacity) 13:41 <@niftynei> lightning-labs definitely gets the points for shipping first. their solution is a really good approach 14:07 -!- jonatack [~jon@213.152.162.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:08 -!- vasild_ [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #c-lightning 14:09 -!- jonatack [~jon@82.102.27.195] has joined #c-lightning 14:12 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12 -!- vasild_ is now known as vasild 15:05 -!- mrostecki [~mrostecki@gateway/tor-sasl/mrostecki] has joined #c-lightning 15:05 -!- kristapsk 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