--- Log opened Wed Nov 11 00:00:13 2020
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02:13 < m-schmoock> cdecker: I try to setup the backup plugin. I got to the point where I successfully 'backup-cli init ..' in the right directory (~/.lightning/bitcoin not ~/.lightning) and also URL encoded the destination correctly. But the daemon still fails to start with raise ValueError("Attempted to create a FileBackend, but file already exists.") 
02:15 < m-schmoock> 1. missing readme   2. point out not to link the backup dir to plugins but just the backup.py (because cli will be added as plugin, which fails)   3. point out to cli init in the correct network sub-directoy  4. why does it still fail ""Attempted to create a FileBackend, but file already exists."     
02:15 < m-schmoock> just my journey on backups :D  
02:17 <@cdecker> Yeah, haven't touched that plugin in a loooong time, I definitely need to write some docs for it
02:17 < m-schmoock> if you help me on 4.  I can write a README.md  PR
02:18 < m-schmoock> do you use it for backups ?
02:21 <@cdecker> I do, but it has an occasional lockup when it can't finish the init-dance (at which point we write the first snapshot)
02:21 <@cdecker> So I have to re-init the backup every once in a while.
02:22 < m-schmoock> hmk. can you open an issue for this lockup and maybe another one for the readme ?
02:22 <@cdecker> The backup.lock file is what I wanted to build out so we don't wait for the `init` from lightningd (at which point we'd already have 3 transactions)
02:22 <@cdecker> Sure
02:22 < m-schmoock> also please merge   https://github.com/lightningd/plugins/pull/153   :D
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02:46 <@cdecker> Ok, added #154 and #155, and will review #153 today
02:47 < m-schmoock> thx :D
02:47 < m-schmoock> im really picky about all the basic stuff, because thats whats confuses most new users
02:51 <@cdecker> Oh, absolutely. IIRC the backup plugin was quite a bit in flux a couple of months ago, and I refrained from writing docs because they were bound to be out-of-date pretty quick
02:51 <@cdecker> But I think the `backup.lock` based discovery of backups is likely here to stay
02:52 <@cdecker> So that's probably much better than going through the CLI args which can change on a moment's notice
02:52 <@cdecker> What do you think? Is using a `backup.lock` a clean solution or do you think it's clunky?
02:53 < m-schmoock> totally fine with backup.lock
02:54 <@cdecker> Ok, it first felt a bit strange to have the whole CLI arg infra and not use it :-)
02:57 < m-schmoock> Other topic: Maybe obvious, but I figured recently that routing nodes that are low on balance on all/most of their channels (because they spend everything and keept the node online) become more and more of a problem because they cant be used for routing. Do people know that having a routing node with very low total balance is 'hurting' network health ?
02:58 < m-schmoock> I believe this is what causes more and more of the WIRE_TEMPORARY errors
02:59 < m-schmoock> thus, monitoring / guessing remote channel balances algorithmically will become more and more a 'requirement' to do succesful routing
02:59 < m-schmoock> thus we dox ourselfs channel balances eventually :D
03:02 < m-schmoock> thiughts?
03:02 < m-schmoock> *thoughts?
03:03 <@cdecker> It is indeed an issue, having to check many channels before we can make any progress is undesirable, but we won't be able to convince nodes to signal disabled channel directions in which even small payment are unlikely to succeed
03:04 <@cdecker> Rusty had this idea of returning a ball-park figure on failed payments ("you're 3 orders of magnitude away from my real balance"), but that has obvious privacy issues, though not that bad imho
03:05 <@cdecker> We can definitely improve our internal channel tracking, e.g., by sharing the info across payments, and scoring nodes/channels, but those need quite a bit more work
03:05 < m-schmoock> I talked to several of my peers that constantly fail routing attempts (via twitter). they all confirmed they simply have not turned off their node wile having all empty channels still open
03:05 <@cdecker> But I should really dig into that example you provided us with, so we can see in more detail what was causing those failures
03:06 < m-schmoock> and this error adds up... if I cant use them for forwarding, others cant use me
03:06 <@cdecker> Yeah, but that should result in a single attempt failing (or a bunch of them if they are concurrent) and then stop being tried until we split the amount (at which point the channels may be sufficient)
03:07 < m-schmoock> yes, maybe theres more going on
03:08 < m-schmoock> but we really have work todo on something like a "liquidity map" view of the network. meaning without trying to pinpoint exact peer balances, we need to be able to identify network areas that keep their channels more or less balanced (usable) and areas that are nogos ;)
03:08 < m-schmoock> using the probing plugin approach maybe
03:09 < m-schmoock> that could be done by a couple of users and projects that can be used as input for routing... I know, all centralized, all not very private :D
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03:11 <@cdecker> As long as it's just adding hints to improve routing I don't see a problem
03:12 <@cdecker> And as long as it doesn't ask for user to submit failed payments like the Olympus server did, because that'd be giving away your activity in the network
03:12 <@cdecker> probes are devoid of any privacy issue since they are just talking to random nodes, not real trading endpoints imho
03:13  * cdecker starts probing again
03:13 < zmnscpxj> CLBOSS does probing as well
03:13 < zmnscpxj> <--- no idea of context
03:14 <@cdecker> Hehe, ok ok, I'll give clboss a try too
03:15 < zmnscpxj> will release a CLBOSS 0.6 "soon", for some definition of "soon", which should help with the 100% CPU problems it had
03:15 < zmnscpxj> or see 0.5C
03:28 < m-schmoock> *soonish  was the woring used by prominent bitcoiners :D
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07:25 < m-schmoock> "Bitcoin on Ethereum"  a really good name :D
07:44 <@cdecker> Wrapped lightning xD
07:44 <@cdecker> I have a PR up addressing the de-sync issue in the backup plugin btw
07:45 <@cdecker> Hopefully this is the last bogus de-sync warning I get from it ^^
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08:09 <@cdecker> m-schmoock: the trace you sent me is about a 200+ USD payment, is that correct? That's not really what Lightning is made for, but I think I have a pretty good idea where this thing fails
08:10 <@cdecker> Was the payment through your node with Eclair also in that same range of payment size?
08:11 < m-schmoock> yes, it was exactly the same payment
08:11 <@cdecker> Hm, ok
08:12 < m-schmoock> and I also tried smaller also smaller payments, since I thought it wmould be handled by MPP the size does not really matter
08:12 <@cdecker> In that case we really need to optimize for these types o payments as well
08:12 < m-schmoock> clightning starts to work for me <<20$ payments
08:12 < m-schmoock> so 10$ is okay after some tries
08:12 < m-schmoock> which is unacceptable ;)
08:13 < m-schmoock> whats your idea why it fails?
08:13 <@cdecker> So from what I can see so far is that we a) don't consider HTLC on-chain fees when selecting a route, and b) we are colliding with the channel_hint updates
08:14 <@cdecker> b) used to not be an issue, since the fees were smallish, and a) can be solved by serializing the getroute queries
08:14 <@cdecker> I might just add a retry if we fail to update the channel_hint
08:15 <@cdecker> That'd at least spread the attempts to more channels and not collide on some remote channel costing us loads of time
08:16 < m-schmoock> If you have some patches I can try I can gladly assist in big onchain mainnet payments :D 
08:16 < m-schmoock> I sometimes buy amazon vouchers and stuff via LN
08:16 < m-schmoock> at least someone needs to do the mainnet streettesting
08:17 <@cdecker> That'd be great, I don't do larger payments, so any help testing is appreciated.
08:17 < m-schmoock> if eclair can do it through us, we should be able to do it too
08:18 < m-schmoock> also, the `cli plugin rescan` hang is just a on-line fix    https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/pull/4194
08:18 < m-schmoock> incase you have even more time (har har :)
08:22 < m-schmoock> ... bah, I found another flaky  tests/test_wallet.py::test_hsm_secret_encryption    but this is todo for another day in clightning land
08:37 < darosior> I like "Elthree" :)
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09:47 < m-schmoock> cdecker: will review #156 plugin tomorow. thx for quickly addressing it
09:47 <@cdecker> No worries, it was actually quite pleasant to simplify all that stuff
09:47 < m-schmoock> "Wrapped Lightning" is also a very good name btw ^^
09:48 < m-schmoock> I listend to the ShitcoinPodcast #2. Not that bad actually
09:48 < m-schmoock> *ShitcoinInsider with Guy Swann   
09:48 <@cdecker> New podcast? I need some new material to keep me company 
09:48 < m-schmoock> kinda entertaining
09:48 < m-schmoock> ^^
09:48 <@cdecker> Nice, I'll give it a try
09:49 < m-schmoock> https://open.spotify.com/episode/2E72lMivVU8Q5eMEvHFH7V?si=OjPB8SbaSKSuYtBQHWBx0Q  
09:49 < m-schmoock> incase you use spotify
09:50 < m-schmoock> didn't know there have been that many shitcoin fails
10:17 < m-schmoock> .... Wrapped Millisatoshi  is also kinda cool
10:32 <@cdecker> m-schmoock: here's an initial draft of the patch for the `pay` command: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/pull/4195
10:33 <@cdecker> Another thing I noticed is that you only get 3 retries before the sender times out. Maybe we could be more aggressive with the adaptive splitter, which might also increase our chances of success
11:28 -!- niftynei changed the topic of #c-lightning to: Next meeting here @8PM UTC Monday Nov 16  Chat about the C-lightning implementation: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/c-lightning  Current Version: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/releases/tag/v0.9.2rc1 Logs at http://gnusha.org/c-lightning/ Dev Roadmap: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/wiki
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12:42 < ark56> HiIt is currently safe to use postgresqlFor a high availability configuration, can you keep 2 node instances open?
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