--- Log opened Sun Nov 15 00:00:17 2020
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02:57 < jasan> zmnscpxj_: Hi there! /me read a bit of introduction of https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/issues/2797 and thought of this: when two want to propose something without being influenced by the other's choice, they add random nonce to their proposal and make a checksum (sha256 for example). They share the checksum with each other. Then they reveal the proposal+nonce to each other. If one
02:57 < jasan> does not match, the negotiation is cancelled. This way there is no first and second, just two (or more) who make their proposals.
02:58 < zmnscpxj_> what happens when the negotiation is cancelled? Drop unilaterally, with all the extra costs that entails? or attempt renogetiation?
02:59  * jasan would attempt renegotiation, hoping for a correct nonce this time, whatever their offer is, no shame.
02:59 < zmnscpxj_> if there is no protocol requirement to move towards each other, then both of them can just keep posting the same feerate for all eternity, never closing the channel
02:59 < zmnscpxj_> that is why there is a protocol requirement that you move towards the couterparty proposal by at least one satoshi
03:00 < zmnscpxj_> so you always get influenced by the other
03:00 < zmnscpxj_> which is the entire point of a negotiation in the first place
03:01 < zmnscpxj_> so for a *mutual* close at least, there is always some influence on each other
03:01 < jasan> Oh, I see. Thank you. 
03:02 < zmnscpxj_> I mean both of you could by complete coincidence have your *first* negotiation start with the exact same fee, but the likelihood of that is fairly low
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03:07 < jasan> Why would anyone want a higher fee? In a hurry?
03:07 < zmnscpxj_> yes
03:07 < zmnscpxj_> or their fee estimator is using a different algo from yours
03:07 < zmnscpxj_> or has different mempool data (There aint no such thing as a global mempool)
03:08 < jasan> There kind of is. It takes one block to sync.
03:09 < zmnscpxj_> and evil people can mess with transaction propagation for their own nefarious purposes
03:09 < zmnscpxj_> like creating two divergent non-RBF-enabled transactions spending the same coin(s) and broadcasting to different parts of the network
03:10 < jasan> Sure, not really mempool in one block, but anyway. My idea is to slow down a bit and wold not mind a lightningd switch for take-it-easy folks.
03:10 < jasan> s/wold/would/
03:10 < zmnscpxj_> and the transactions can have different feerates
03:10 < zmnscpxj_> what happens if a take-it-easy node has a channel with a i-need-my-coins-onchain-now node?
03:11 < jasan> Force-close anytime.
03:11 < zmnscpxj_> force-close imposes a `to_self_delay`
03:12 < jasan> Yes. There everyone notices they have to take it easy.
03:12 < zmnscpxj_> so the i-need-my-coins-onchain-now node will prefer to negotiate with your node, and your node has to give *some* concession
03:12 < jasan> Take it easy is actually in a neferious advantage here, right?
03:12 < zmnscpxj_> or else the protocol will not progress anyway
03:12 < zmnscpxj_> yes
03:13 < zmnscpxj_> and force-close is more expensive as it requires larger scripts to be exposed, and less private for same reason
03:15 < zmnscpxj_> more nefariously: say it is a large 1BTC wumbo channel, and you have just 0.01 BTC in it and the counterparty has 0.99 BTC
03:16 < zmnscpxj_> you can trivially have a laid-back, take-it-easy attitude to the mutual close of this channel
03:16 < zmnscpxj_> but your counterparty will want to get its funds onchain ASAP so it can recreate channels to some other node ASAP.
03:16  * jasan sees ASAP twice, maybe needs to rest
03:17 < zmnscpxj_> haha LOL
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04:38 < HelloShitty> Hello
04:38 < HelloShitty> How many confirms for an open channel to be available?
04:39 < zmnscpxj_> 3 on our side by default, but your counterparty might have a different setting
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04:39 < HelloShitty> Someone opened a channel with me
04:39 < HelloShitty> it has 11 confirmations already
04:40 < zmnscpxj_> Still in `AWAITING_LOCKIN`?
04:40 < HelloShitty> but the status is still saying "Openning"
04:40 < HelloShitty> yes
04:40 < zmnscpxj_> could be peer that wants a deeper confirmation
04:40 < zmnscpxj_> you have no funds in it right?
04:41 < HelloShitty> I still haven't used that channel for anything
04:41 < HelloShitty> so no, I haven't send any funds through this channel
04:41 < HelloShitty> it has a couple of hours
04:41 < zmnscpxj_> so `to_us_msat` is 0?
04:42 < zmnscpxj_> just wait it out
04:42 < HelloShitty> lemme check
04:42 < zmnscpxj_> if other side does not think it is open yet then nothing you can do to force them
04:43 < HelloShitty> yes: "to_us_msat": "0msat",
04:43 < zmnscpxj_> okay
04:43 < zmnscpxj_> not really your problem, maybe the peer that made it is slow or something
04:43 < HelloShitty> and it also says "private channel"
04:43 < HelloShitty> yeah, no problem. I was just curious
04:44 < HelloShitty> becaue I can't find his address on 1ml, neither channel ID, etc
04:44 < HelloShitty> and I'm not sure I can't find him on 1ml because he's recent node
04:44 < HelloShitty> or because it is private channel
04:44 < zmnscpxj_> ha. probably a node on a mobile device, so it probably has large timeouts because their internet is not reliable
04:44 < HelloShitty> Anyways, even if a channel is private, the node ID shoul show up on 1ml, right?
04:45 < zmnscpxj_> no
04:45 < zmnscpxj_> node ID is only visible if at least channel of the node is published
04:45 < zmnscpxj_> at least one channel
04:45 < HelloShitty> ah ok
04:45 < HelloShitty> I thought it was related to the "age" of the node too
04:45 < zmnscpxj_> if all channels it has are unpublished, it will never appear on 1ml, even if it existed for years already
04:46 < HelloShitty> And a private channel won't be announced there, is that it?
04:46 < zmnscpxj_> no, that is what a "private" (WARNING: THIS TERM IS A MISNOMER) channel *is*, it is an unannounced channel that is not published anywhere
04:47 < zmnscpxj_> only you and the node know about it
04:48 < HelloShitty> So, it has a single possible route, right?
04:48 < HelloShitty> and only between the 2 of us
04:48 < zmnscpxj_> that you know of. the node could have other unpublished channels elsewhere
04:48 < HelloShitty> ahh yes, of course
04:49 < zmnscpxj_> but if the other side initiates a payment, or receives a payment, you know exactly who and how much it sends/receives
04:49 < zmnscpxj_> you know it definitely is the sender/receiver
04:49 < HelloShitty> yeah
04:49 < zmnscpxj_> whereas if the channel were published, payments inside it could be from somewhere else
04:49 < HelloShitty> This is kinda weird someone random opens a private channel with someone you don't know
04:50 < zmnscpxj_> no, it is perfectly normal. Electrum does this I think
04:50 < zmnscpxj_> they pick a random high-uptime node with good number of channels and just make an unpublished channel to it
04:50 < HelloShitty> hum, ok
04:50 < zmnscpxj_> so it just means you are high uptime and have lots of channels
04:50 < HelloShitty> well, maybe not
04:51 < zmnscpxj_> haha
04:51 < HelloShitty> lol, I only have 2 incoming channels
04:51 < HelloShitty> and 3 outgoing channels
04:51 < HelloShitty> heheh
04:51 < zmnscpxj_> well, uptime then?
04:51 < HelloShitty> 3 incoming with this private one
04:52 < HelloShitty> well, power just went out a few minutes ago an wireless connection went off too for a couple of minutes
04:52 < HelloShitty> not sure if that counts as downtime
04:52 < HelloShitty> there is a command to check uptime, right?
04:53 < HelloShitty> hum, mayabe not
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06:31 < HelloShitty> zmnscpxj_
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06:37 < HelloShitty> Where can we see what channel flags means?
06:37 < HelloShitty> I mean,  when I run the summary plugin, I get a few flags for one of mu channels
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09:32 < HelloShitty> Guys, why and what for do we need a reserve and dust values in channel params? I mean, what are they used for?
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--- Log closed Mon Nov 16 00:00:18 2020