--- Day changed Wed Aug 03 2016
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02:19 < proslogion> so here we have an application that has about the same real-time requirement for signing as the busiest exchanges
02:19 < waxwing> no centralization
02:21 < proslogion> sure, but 1.someday maybe the volume would become very big; 2. the defenses in place are much weaker than the exchanges
02:25 < waxwing> i guess the defences have to be assessed per user, and even the biggest user is not in the same galaxy as an exchange :) also, a user doesn't have to provide the same access level as an exchange. the equivalent to the exchange would be the messaging server, and we consider the messaging server operator as part of our threat model (against privacy, there is no coin custodianship change here)
02:26 < waxwing> having said all that PRs welcome in the case of ways to improve the hot wallet model (or change it).
02:27 < proslogion> submitted an issue anyway
02:34 < waxwing> hmm "no coin custodian/ownership change" is obviously not correct for the coinjoin fee, which is both a trivial point and not: trivial inasmuch as the amounts are supposed to be v. small, and not inasmuch as a code bug can change that.
02:35 < proslogion> waxwing: i think you misunderstood
02:36 < proslogion> in JM's case, a maker doesn't run like a user of an exchange, but an exchange
02:36 < waxwing> well you can make an analogy in various ways; you can even say the Taker is the exchange :)
02:36 < proslogion> okay i guess i misunderstood
02:36 < waxwing> no version of the analogy is quite right i think
02:36 < proslogion> wrt "the same access level"
02:37 < proslogion> well the taker is not, he doesn't need to respond to signing requests 24*7
02:37 < waxwing> yeah i was thinking that an exchange perforce must offer a server for user/clients to connect to and do stuff.
02:37 < proslogion> he can do that anytime he wants
02:37 < waxwing> yeah fair enough. but the "server" here is the coordinating message server, really, which is the IRC. 
02:38 < waxwing> but i'm not arguing with your point about the maker needing to make himself available, plus hot wallet.
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03:33 < nkuttler> btw, can i send to multiple addresses in one jm tx?
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04:05 < belcher_> nkuttler: nope
04:06 < belcher_> for securing jm hot wallets, it should be possible to have hardware wallets that can safely sign coinjoin txes
04:17 < nkuttler> that would be nice, aye
04:17 < nkuttler> the main reason i don't get one is that they don't support core
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04:38 < waxwing> belcher_: yeah and the !auth change as per discussion is a big change there.
04:39 < waxwing> i think i might do a little tumble in the testpit later. few hours.
04:43 < nkuttler> meh. blockr again
04:44 < waxwing> nkuttler: you're on a list :)
04:45 < nkuttler> probably..
04:45 < nkuttler> i should just try another service i guess..
04:45 < nkuttler> nah, i should configure my bitcoind at last..
04:45 < nkuttler> dunno, for some reason i didn't get it to work
04:46 < nkuttler> and another 500. wtf
04:46 < nkuttler> ok. lunch, then i'll change that
04:46 < waxwing> nkuttler: so, you're trying to take the raw tx and broadcast somewhere else right?
04:46 < waxwing> does "another 500 wtf" refer to a different site or blockr? well, anyway, you can figure it out :)
04:46 < nkuttler> waxwing: no idea what i'm doing, just using sendpayment.py
04:46 < nkuttler> but i guess that's what it does, yeah
04:47 < waxwing> well but you could just take the raw tx in the terminal output and try again
04:47 < nkuttler> yeah, was a blockr 500
04:47 < nkuttler> ah
04:47 < nkuttler> good point
04:47 < waxwing> like on tbtc.blockr.io/push or whatever it's called
04:47 < waxwing> it might help to be clear what's going on. or might not.
04:55 < waxwing> sorry i meant "it might help to *make* clear what's going on"
05:07 < nkuttler> that's so odd.. joinmarket.jsonrpc.JsonRpcConnectionError: JSON-RPC connection failed. Err:error(111, 'Connection refused')
05:07 < nkuttler> it's suppsed to say jsonrpc, even if i use bitcoin-rpc, right?
05:07 < waxwing> yeah, can you do a bitcoin-cli getsomethingsomething?
05:08 < waxwing> -testnet of course 
05:08 < nkuttler> i am listening on localhost and the user/pass is copied straight from the bitcoind conf
05:08 < nkuttler> sure, that works
05:08 < nkuttler> anyway, must be me
05:08 < nkuttler> oh wait, is rpcallowip only usable once? that must be it
05:09 < nkuttler> ok, yeah, that was it..
05:12 < nkuttler> hehe, now exceptions in PaymentThread, TimeoutThread
05:12 < waxwing> do a wallet-tool
05:12 < waxwing> i guess you need to rescan
05:12 < waxwing> (not that i'm claiming that's the cause of the error, just occurs to me)
05:13 < nkuttler> ah crap, you're right
05:13 < nkuttler> hm, wallet tool runs fine though
05:13 < nkuttler> i have a txindex fwiw
05:13 < waxwing> oh ok
05:13 < waxwing> so what exceptions do you see?
05:15 < nkuttler> https://misc.kuttler.eu/exceptions.txt
05:15 < waxwing> hmm, that could be an interesting bug: seems like gettxout is not returning a 'confirmations' in the dict
05:16 < nkuttler> should i open an issue?
05:16 < waxwing> could you do the gettxout 01ea.. manually?
05:16 < waxwing> to be clear i run this stuff endlessly on regtest so it's not some completely obvious mistake. i hope :)
05:17 < waxwing> unless maybe there's some difference in testnet, or some difference in Core version
05:17 < nkuttler> hm, what's vout?
05:17 < waxwing> 2016-08-03 12:10:47,470 [PaymentThrea] [DEBUG]  rpc: gettxout [u'01ea65638de1c73b2ec093cfb043325edf571d26215da83f7372a7a87e070052', 0, False]
05:17 < waxwing> that one so zero
05:17 < nkuttler> doesn't output anything
05:17 < nkuttler> running 0.13.0rc1 btw
05:17 < waxwing> so i guess rescan? i don't actually know the details of what txindex gives
05:18 < nkuttler> yeah, let me rescan
05:18 < waxwing> ah i see
05:18 < waxwing> the reason you don't get a warning is because there is no wallet.json here so no index_cache, so the wallet-tool doesn't know what it doesn't know so to speak. at least, i think so.
05:19 < waxwing> hmm i could well be wrong about that. haven't thought it through. it's been so long since we were running on testnet :)
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05:20 < nkuttler> rescanning now. i'll see later
05:20 < waxwing> nkuttler: when you rescan, is there an easy way to see when it finished?
05:20 < waxwing> do you have to see the message in debug.log?
05:20 < nkuttler> waxwing: no idea
05:20 < waxwing> yeah that's rather annoying.but i'm prob missing something obvious.
05:20 < waxwing> just cpu usage ? :)
05:20 < nkuttler> that's odd
05:20 < nkuttler> did i disable logging or what..
05:21 < waxwing> under the testnet folder?
05:21 < nkuttler> doh!
05:21 < waxwing> :)
05:21 < nkuttler> yeah, lots of output
05:22 < nkuttler> so. later i guess :)
05:22 < waxwing> yeah but no idea how long it takes, that's exactly what's putting me off doing it actually
05:23 < nkuttler> ah well, it's just testnet
05:23 < waxwing> yeah you're right it shouldn't be long
05:30 < waxwing> i'll put in a little patch to report the missing txout info rather than crash, in any case.
05:46 < waxwing> ok i did rescan myself, took like 30 seconds tops.
05:50 < nkuttler> alright, tx went through
05:50 < waxwing> cool. i'm going to set up an obwatcher on joinmarket.me/obtest/
05:54 < nkuttler> fronti: so you want to run a testnet yieldgen?
05:55 < fronti> torify python yield-generator-basic.py wallet.json
05:55 < nkuttler> you should just configure it to use your local tor
05:55 < fronti> oops
05:55 < fronti> i do with torify 
05:55 < nkuttler> waxwing and i are on cyberguerrilla irc
05:56 < waxwing>  plus one more guy i think
05:56 < fronti> I'm still in the "understanding and testing" phase of this tool
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05:57 < fronti> 2016-08-03 14:57:19,854 [MainThread  ] [DEBUG]  Connected to IRC and joined channel
05:57 < fronti> and now i have to wait or?
05:58 < linux_> joinmarket stats rising from yesterday :) ?
05:58 < nkuttler> you could try a sendpayment i guess
05:58 < nkuttler> fronti: like i said, not many tx on testnet
05:59 < nkuttler> my yigen just did my own sendpayment though
06:00 < nkuttler> linux_: nothing out of the ordinary so far for me
06:00 < nkuttler> but i have increased my fees >:)
06:00 < linux_> hehe you should offer something like 1.000 bitcoins with 5% fee and wait :)
06:01 < nkuttler> oh, i would if i could
06:01 < nkuttler> actually, i might not..
06:01 < linux_> but i don´t know if the hacker even consider this options
06:01 < nkuttler> fronti: you probably want to run more yigens. i have three running
06:02 < nkuttler> i can send a few more tx when you're ready
06:02 < linux_> but honestly, did you had any trades with significant amount in the past? is it possible to make some bitcoins with coinmarket ?
06:02 < fronti> later today.. i have to leave now 
06:03 < nkuttler> linux_: you probably make less than the cost of running the computer
06:03 < linux_> puh so almost nobody using it
06:04 < nkuttler> nah, people do use it
06:04 < nkuttler> and i think it's nice to have a roi in satoshis
06:04 < nkuttler> better than just having them sit around. and fungability
06:04 < nkuttler> fungibility, eh
06:05 < waxwing> https://joinmarket.me/obtest/ <-- up 
06:05 < waxwing> but links at top don't work currently, just orderbook
06:06 < waxwing> don't press the shutdown button :))
06:11 < waxwing> something up with cgan? seeing weird things
06:13 < waxwing> no seems not, just i had a server restart
06:19 < waxwing> this is weird, every time my bots try to connect to cgan i get _ssl.c EOF occurred in violation of protocol (that error just means the ssl connection was dropped).
06:20 < waxwing> just seems to have suddenly started to happen now
06:26 < waxwing> yep done tx ok on the other two servers.
06:37 < waxwing> nkuttler: testnet baron :)
06:40 < nkuttler> just doing my part :)
06:42 < waxwing> k, fixed ob-watcher, now going to fix create-unsigned-tx, belcher_ prob going to fix hostid, at that point most seems to be done except the hard part: getting a sense of what commitment requirements should be.
06:43 < waxwing> can people report on what they see as the current attacker behaviour?
06:43 < waxwing> i think this morning i was seeing maybe 1 request per hour, and maybe 1 one as soon as you join.
07:15 < linux_> btw. does the core team do anything about the fungibility problem. I think we need something intigrated into the bitcoin code which prevents third partys to track bitcoins, otherwise we will have same problems with bitcoin like we have with paypal and bank account today
07:16 < linux_> I think the only altcoin which prevents coin tracking is monero right ?
07:16 < waxwing> linux_: sure they do (Core), in how the wallet works for example. and most of the research into things like coinjoin, confidential transactions and a bunch of other stuff is coming from those guys
07:17 < linux_> do you think in the near future we have something build-up into the bitcoin-code prevent anybody to track the way of the bitcoins ?
07:18 < linux_> maybe even in the next hardfork together with other stuff ?
07:26 < pigeons> linux_: there is work on improving privcy and fungibility. Look into "Confidential Transactions" for one thing
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11:26 < nkuttler> error pushing = -26 16: bad-txns-inputs-duplicate is a core error, isn't it?
11:26 < arubi> very much looks like one
11:27 < arubi> if my ssh relay wasn't dropping packets, I'd even git grep it for you
11:28 < arubi> main.cpp:1082 
11:29 < nkuttler> eh, i also get nonrespondants = [u'J58xC2RGvDtNsM5a', u'J582JSfkmCnN8i4q'] which are my own yigens..
11:30 < arubi> so duplicate inputs, like the error suggests?
11:30 < pigeons> yeah i gt that frequently and ingor it, thinking its literlly duplicate inputs
11:30 < nkuttler> oh, i guess that could happen if i run multiple yigens?
11:30 < arubi> same wallet?  sure I guess
11:30 < nkuttler> ok. makes sense
11:31 < arubi> I mean that's even a good sign in that case, right? :)
11:31 < nkuttler> i guess i should create more wallets then
11:32 < arubi> that's what I used to do when running the bots.  I'm gonna re-image with proxmox this weekend and spin up a joinmarket vm again
11:32 < nkuttler> ok. first jm faucet tx \o/
11:32 < nkuttler> 1c884229c41efe24f2bd1edfa077c259b50edd17c0271cee06398ca9062d44bc
11:33 < arubi> 0.6, nice :)
11:33 < nkuttler> not even sure how much i send usually
11:33 < nkuttler> probably more
11:34 < arubi> yea, I usually get 5-10
11:34 < nkuttler> no, not really
11:34 < nkuttler> 125653138 is the random number from my faucet
11:35 < arubi> oh sorry, I visited the site now.  I guess I was confused with another testnet faucet
11:35  * nkuttler should probably increase that number
11:35 < nkuttler> i have too many coins anyway, but in the past some people tried to drain it
11:36 < arubi> oh sure, but I'm pretty certain some devs have really huge amounts.  I think they could fund you once in a while
11:39 < nkuttler> that's odd, i get bad-txns-inputs-duplicate again
11:39 < nkuttler> maybe somebody else..
11:40 < nkuttler> mh. anyway, enough for today
11:40 < waxwing> nkuttler: my yg bot is doing weird things. looks like it's failing to get data from blockr.
11:40  * nkuttler should really log the tx ids of his faucet..
11:41 < waxwing> now i know rescan is quick i should be able to get them both back up on Core.
11:41 < nkuttler> ah, that's a normal tx http://tbtc.blockr.io/tx/info/687e1c76e997ebe9b2225e83dfd54ca6eefcd48cec61babe14f1680aeebe9dcb
11:41 < nkuttler> values > 1, ok
11:42 < nkuttler> waxwing: too tired to look into it today, but i'll try a few again tomorrow
11:43 < waxwing> yeah no rush; i'm resetting them to Core now.
11:47 < nkuttler> so two yigens running again, with separate wallets
11:47 < waxwing> separate wallets is good :)
11:47 < nkuttler> i noticed ;)
11:48 < waxwing> i have my 2 back up on Core now, but i have a feeling i have mislaid some coins :)
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11:48 < nkuttler> oh, i should probably have a third wallet to send from, right?
11:48 < waxwing> to be fair i don't actually remember, but i'll come back to this later.
11:48 < nkuttler> on realnet i never received duplicate inputs
11:49 < waxwing> yes that's what i'm doing
11:49 < waxwing> i do 2 yigens and 1 to send from
11:49 < nkuttler> ah. well.. don't really put so much coin on a networked box
11:49 < waxwing> i just make separate copies of the directory tree for each, it does mean having to git pull in each, but otherwise evrything gets confused.
11:49 < nkuttler> want to
11:51 < waxwing> ok i'll try one more tx now just for the sake of it, see where we are
11:52 < waxwing> k, i think i'm figuring it out now.
11:53 < waxwing> i forgot that i believe cgan has a rule that more than ~ 2 connections is verboten.
11:53 < waxwing> that's why my connections drop when i attach a third bot from the VPS
11:56 < nkuttler> oh? i just sent with 2 running yigens + sendpayment
11:56 < nkuttler> or did i..
11:57 < waxwing> yeah there's 2 running on that pit now, but not mine. i'm in the penalty box :)
11:57 < nkuttler> hehe
12:01 < nkuttler> meh, donation amount hardcoded in the models file.. who wrote that code..
12:01 < nkuttler> well, random limits
12:17 < waxwing> ?
12:47 < nkuttler> just rambling, never mind
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14:28 <+JM-IRCRelay> [mib_8dl2w5] isn't it a problem somehow that when a user exits the very same moment the transaction is broadcasted?
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14:38 < pigeons> no if the transaction is broadcast its fine
14:38 < pigeons> by that point everything is signed
14:39 < pigeons> or maybe you mean earlier in the process, there is an attacker doing info gathering/annoyance b
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15:19 < pigeons> i'm getting lots (every 15 minutes or so for several hours) of cmd=error msg=unable to fill order constrained by dust avoidance.
15:19 < pigeons> Is this my client selecting too small inputs, or the "taker"?
15:20 < belcher> its you
15:20 < belcher> your side, rather
15:20 < pigeons> yeah
15:21 < belcher> https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/blob/087921b50beb93faa8e9125611b6cde7d12d4a16/joinmarket/maker.py#L56
15:22 < pigeons> OK yeah, thanks
15:23 < belcher> i wonder why its so often, that case should basically never happen
15:24 < pigeons> using oscillator
15:58 < belcher> so i guess its not possible to run the 0.2.0 branch without secp256k1, since i havent been able to install it yet
15:59 < belcher> now seems like the time to spend a weekend on getting it to work
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17:22 < GithubBot5678> [joinmarket] chris-belcher opened pull request #598: made irc code detect network name and use it for hostid (0.2.0...0.2.0-networkname) https://git.io/v6LPk
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19:17 < pigeons> maybe i'll talk to raedah? it keeps happening with oscillator but seems not to happen with others yet
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