--- Log opened Fri Jul 24 00:00:28 2020 00:18 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has joined #joinmarket 00:24 -!- jonatack [~jon@194.187.251.155] has joined #joinmarket 00:38 -!- beIcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40 -!- beIcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 01:08 -!- MaxSan [~four@185.183.106.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:34 -!- stoner19 [~stoner19@unaffiliated/stoner19] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:59 -!- asymptotically [~asymptoti@gateway/tor-sasl/asymptotically] has joined #joinmarket 02:16 -!- k3tan [~pi@unaffiliated/k3tan] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:17 -!- k3tan [~pi@unaffiliated/k3tan] has joined #joinmarket 02:32 -!- netopso [~user@cloud608804.fastpipe.io] has joined #joinmarket 02:40 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:40 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #joinmarket 02:41 -!- jonatack [~jon@194.187.251.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:02 -!- Anastacio62Bernh [~Anastacio@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03 -!- Linnie38Yost [~Linnie38Y@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined #joinmarket 03:07 -!- slivera [~slivera@103.231.88.27] has joined #joinmarket 03:31 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has joined #joinmarket 03:39 -!- Evanito [~Evanito@cpe-76-87-174-228.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50 -!- netopso [~user@cloud608804.fastpipe.io] has left #joinmarket [] 03:53 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:53 -!- reallll [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 04:25 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Quit: jonatack] 04:29 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has joined #joinmarket 04:50 -!- reallll is now known as belcher_ 05:00 < DSRelBot> [DS/CatoAlex] thanks for that link kristapsk. Interesting read and horrifying display of security/privacy issue handling in the tor project 05:07 < waxwing> belcher_, would appreciate a comment on https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/pull/644#discussion_r458271110 - if not, i can just rewrite the language myself. 05:09 < belcher_> waxwing done 05:10 < belcher_> looks like i accidently a word (back in 2015) 05:10 < belcher_> thanks for the highlight 05:35 -!- Tralfaz [~Davterra@37.120.208.253] has joined #joinmarket 05:36 -!- Davterra [~Davterra@37.120.208.253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:39 -!- ongo [~weechat@static.179.176.203.116.clients.your-server.de] has joined #joinmarket 06:43 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:45 -!- slivera [~slivera@103.231.88.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:46 -!- Tralfaz is now known as Davterra 06:49 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has joined #joinmarket 07:13 < ongo> is Wasabi's coinjoin implementation actually superior to JoinMarket as they claim? 07:15 -!- Linnie38Yost [~Linnie38Y@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20 < Davterra> ongo where have they claimed that? I've never seen it 07:22 < ongo> hmm I might be misremembering, but I recall seeing it somewhere in their docs or blogs 07:28 < Davterra> Pretty sure they've never said anything like that. I'm not on their dev team, but I've made some small contributions to Wasabi and in internal conversations nothing like that have ever been said. 07:29 < Davterra> *has* ever been said 07:30 < Davterra> They acknowledge tradeoffs b/t Wasabi & Joinmarket, and are certainly proud of their implementation, but they also admire Joinmarket for its strengths 07:31 < ongo> I see, what are the differences between the 2 implementations Davterra? 07:33 < Davterra> well, wasabi has fixed mix amounts for starters, and all users are essentially takers/pay fee...on the other hand, you can quickly get an anonset > 100 with Wasabi 07:34 < ongo> also I guess very easy to use GUI 07:34 < ongo> I remember someone mentioning on #electrum or #bitcoin about a plug in for electrum doing such coinjoins and then mentioning that this isn't a good solution, why might that be? 07:37 < belcher_> the downsides of joinmarket is that it might be hard to install and use for big newbs 07:37 < belcher_> although to install you just run one ./install.sh command line 07:38 < ongo> well, extra wallet setup, tx management as well (which isn't that clear for me as well) 07:38 < belcher_> i dont know what is meant by tx management 07:39 < belcher_> with joinmarket you could just send dirty coins into the joinmarket wallet, run tumbler.py and give it the destination addresses where you want the coins to end up, and run it 07:39 < ongo> oh you don't need to manually select the txs, it just does it for u? 07:39 < ongo> also is it better to send all your txs separately or is it fine to bunch them into one, say all of htem are from 1-2 exchanges 07:41 < belcher_> if you want incoming coins to not be linked together, then send them to different mixdepths (like "pockets") in the joinmarket wallet 07:42 < belcher_> for example if you're a nurse and also works nights as a stripper, then the nurse income would go in mixdepth 0, the stripper income in mixdepth 1 07:42 < belcher_> (overly funny example but you get the idea) 07:42 < belcher_> but as you said it all comes from one exchange, then just send them to one address i guess 07:42 < ongo> lmao 07:43 < ongo> coinbase + bitstamp, but I guess it doesn't matter much, would #of txs change the costs for me? 07:43 < belcher_> no it shouldnt change the miner fees much 07:44 < belcher_> btw right now theres huge demand for block space and miner fees are high, so id recommend waiting a while 07:44 < belcher_> do the tumble when demand for block space is lower and fees are cheaper 07:44 < belcher_> in #bitcoin you mentioned its your long term savings, so you're time-insensitive 07:45 -!- Tralfaz [~Davterra@193.32.127.227] has joined #joinmarket 07:45 < ongo> ye 07:46 -!- Davterra [~Davterra@37.120.208.253] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:46 -!- Tralfaz is now known as Davterra 07:46 -!- asymptotically [~asymptoti@gateway/tor-sasl/asymptotically] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46 < ongo> for the future to not taint my electrum wallet I should refrain from sending straight to electrum from the exchange and instead pass through joinmarket, or does it not matter? 07:46 -!- asymptotically [~asymptoti@gateway/tor-sasl/asymptotically] has joined #joinmarket 07:47 < belcher_> best is to send from exchange to joinmarket 07:51 < waxwing> belcher_, another ping :) https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/issues/632#issuecomment-663577624 07:54 < belcher_> i dont really have a strong view on moving to bech32 offerbook 07:54 < belcher_> ill read the whole thread again, sec 07:54 < waxwing> i'm pinging you about mixed, as i recall you *somewhat* advocated that 07:54 < waxwing> at least you countered people's arguments against it 07:55 < belcher_> in hindsight i thought there'd be bigger issues with split liquidity 07:55 < belcher_> but iirc everyone in joinmarket just moved over the course of a couple of weeks, and it was fine 07:57 < waxwing> i think there was a pretty long tail 07:57 < waxwing> i was more remembering chat we had here maybe 6mths-1year ago where we discussed whether it might work to have coinjoins with more than one address type at once 08:08 < belcher_> seems like its a lot of coding work for not that much benefit 08:12 < waxwing> on balance i would estimate so, yes 08:13 < waxwing> especially though, because it's really unclear to me what the reasoning would be - anything is OK? or there are certain additional rules to consider when doing this? i don't think users would appreciate it, it's confusing. 08:14 < waxwing> otoh i think if we make a second pit it will be a genuine liquidity split, since there are quite a few things out there that only want to accept p2sh as receiving addresses, and not bech32. 08:15 < belcher_> "since there are quite a few things out there that only want to accept p2sh as receiving addresses, and not bech32." <---- if so then thats really really annoyinh 08:15 < belcher_> a big reason the legacy -> p2sh migration was so easy is that p2sh is better than legacy in every way 08:16 < belcher_> if p2sh and bech32 both have unique uses, then both pits will hang around for a really long time 08:19 < waxwing> well but p2pkh persisted and still persists for many years after p2sh. 08:20 < waxwing> i don't think p2sh has any advantage over bech32 in any area except support, probably some businesses were reluctant to start using bech32 receiving addresses in case some clients had wallets that could not pay them. 08:20 < waxwing> also it's more coding on their backend ofc. 08:20 < waxwing> don't forget bitmex is still using uncompressed pubkeys lol. 08:37 < belcher_> but p2pkh doesnt have any better features than p2sh 08:37 < belcher_> you're never in a situation where you cant reiceve 09:10 -!- Evanito [~Evanito@cpe-76-87-174-228.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #joinmarket 09:24 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has joined #joinmarket 10:38 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-34-189-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:46 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:54 -!- Giszmo [~leo@201.219.236.126] has joined #joinmarket 11:11 -!- Giszmo [~leo@201.219.236.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:36 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-34-189-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 11:44 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:47 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has joined #joinmarket 12:10 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #joinmarket 13:32 < waxwing> no it doesn't, except that at the start certain senders may not have supported p2sh, and certain companies etc may not have wanted to upgrade code; and that's why p2pkh still exists even now. 13:32 < waxwing> and all the same is true for basically any upgrade. 13:33 < waxwing> (i mean you can have an academic argument as to whether there are some small advantages of p2pkh, like scriptsig size, but that's beside the point imo) 14:36 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-34-189-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:45 -!- slivera [~slivera@103.231.88.10] has joined #joinmarket 14:46 < belcher_> the bech32 vs p2sh is an annoying tradeoff because as you wrote bech32 lets us use payjoin in some cases, and thats huge 14:52 -!- Giszmo [~leo@201.219.234.97] has joined #joinmarket 15:27 -!- Giszmo [~leo@201.219.234.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:36 -!- asymptotically [~asymptoti@gateway/tor-sasl/asymptotically] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:37 < takinbo> i made a comment on the issue regarding compatibility with taproot. although both would be bech32, their segwit versions would be different; would that make a big difference to require yet another orderbook if taproot gets into jm? 15:38 < waxwing> takinbo, yeah i offhand mentioned it earlier in thread. "There is the question of whether an upgrade to bech32 should form part of an overall Joinmarket messaging protocol upgrade - I had hoped this, and somewhat vaguely wondered whether there might be a jump to taproot/Schnorr at the same time." 15:38 < waxwing> it's really hard to know. you can guarantee as soon as we merge a native bech32 PR that taproot activation starts lol 15:39 < waxwing> i suppose an important point to bear in mind is: all the heavy lifting is already done for a p2wpkh orderbook (the wallet stuff). 15:40 < waxwing> so it would be very simple. but taproot is quite a way off, it will get done reasonably fast in python-bitcointx i would guess, and would not cause too much extra headache for us, except needing substantial testing and so on. 15:41 < waxwing> i'd be very keen to support taproot in JM (and anything else for that matter) just because of the potential to merge multisig anon set into normal wallet anon set. so many really valuable things in bitcoin privacy will depend on multisig. 15:41 < waxwing> (i.e. even if JM itself isn't using much with it) 15:42 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-34-189-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 15:59 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-34-189-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:02 < takinbo> is there a pr already to replace jmbitcoin with python-bitcoinx? 16:02 < waxwing> it's already merged. 16:02 < takinbo> one other argument for going bech32 is the fact that the other major cj implementations are bech32 only as well 16:03 < waxwing> but it doesn't replace, it just uses it as a backend. 16:03 < takinbo> i see. 16:03 < waxwing> takinbo, yes that's a good additional point, agreed for sure 16:04 < takinbo> when you mention having a JM messaging protocol upgrade, what are some of the things you would like to see improved upon? 16:05 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-34-189-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 16:07 < waxwing> i could expand a bit on what i wrote there, but that gives an idea. 16:24 -!- xochon_ [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/xochon] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10 -!- DSRelBot [~DSRelBot@p5de4aaa5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:11 -!- HackRelay [~jmrelayha@p5de4aaa5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21 -!- HackRelay [~jmrelayha@p548669fa.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket 17:26 -!- DSRelBot [~DSRelBot@p548669fa.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket 17:52 -!- Davterra [~Davterra@193.32.127.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53 -!- Davterra [~Davterra@193.32.127.227] has joined #joinmarket 18:11 -!- Davterra [~Davterra@193.32.127.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12 -!- Davterra [~Davterra@193.32.127.227] has joined #joinmarket 19:08 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Zenton, k3tan 19:08 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: sosthene, luke-jr, adlai, qubenix, ongo, core, technonerd, Cory, fluffypony, so, (+58 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 19:15 -!- Netsplit over, joins: harding, takinbo, waxwing, jonatack, so, kanzure, pigeons, midnight, nsh, adlai (+58 more) 19:15 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: justinmoon, nothingmuch, puddinpop, adlai, so, niftynei, core, Livestradamus, harding, Cory, (+30 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 19:15 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: fluffypony 19:16 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: sosthene, qubenix, Zenton, technonerd, ghost43, azizLIGHT, ponkaloupe_, Xeha, fiatjaf, dopplerg-, (+17 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 19:19 -!- Netsplit over, joins: kanzure, pigeons, Davterra, jonatack, fiatjaf, sosthene, luke-jr, harding, waxwing, takinbo (+46 more) 19:20 -!- Netsplit over, joins: willcl_ark, deafboy, Lightsword, _0x0ff, nothingmuch, avril 19:20 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fesemlofizxufmwu] has joined #joinmarket 19:20 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fesemlofizxufmwu] has quit [Changing host] 19:20 -!- rdymac [uid31665@unaffiliated/rdymac] has joined #joinmarket 19:20 -!- johnhmay [sid110431@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qceipwxqbizhtosv] has joined #joinmarket 19:20 -!- slivera [~slivera@103.231.88.10] has joined #joinmarket 19:20 -!- rdymac [uid31665@unaffiliated/rdymac] has quit [Changing host] 19:20 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fesemlofizxufmwu] has joined #joinmarket 19:20 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fesemlofizxufmwu] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:21 -!- Netsplit over, joins: achow101, azizLIGHT, mr_burdell, dopplerg- 19:21 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lodtpwzaxmzjraia] has joined #joinmarket 19:21 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lodtpwzaxmzjraia] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:22 -!- berndj [~berndj@ns1.linksynergy.co.za] has joined #joinmarket 19:22 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jtrzlarxjxetjpjr] has joined #joinmarket --- Log closed Sat Jul 25 00:00:29 2020